Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

Right now i have strikeforce aluminum heads off of ebay. There 2.02/1.60 valves, 200cc runners, and 64 cc comb. chamber. Well my problem is when i took it to get dyno tuned at TPIS in chaska, MN, Jim told me i need more compression for my cam thats in there. He said 11 to 1. And i would just go ahead and deck the heads but it says they cant be decked on the ebay listing..(who knows y). So now i need some 58cc comb. chambers for my compression to be up around 11to1. Anybody have this cam? I need some input fellas. I mite even step up to 2.05/1.60 valves if i find a set of 58cc heads. All input would be great.

PS: should i just do a little bit smaller cam? or go all the way with the heads? I want it to be close to 500hp on the flywheel and around 430+ at the wheels. Thanks guys!

Guest

Cant mill the heads down? Uh, yea sure. Sounds like a load of garbage to me or the heads are worthless that should never have been used in the first place if you cant cut .030 off or so.

Anyway, need more compression for what exactly?

bnio

Is that the cam and comp ratio of your engine in your sig? If so 10:1 with 223 dur cam is fine typically. But one would need all the cam spec to evaluate, like intake centerline lobe separation etc. Just keep this in mind, its just like a restricted class rules engine. You are restricted by your pocket book most of the time or you may be restricted by comp ratio, throttle size etc. You may just have to live with what you have. I also doubt you will see much difference with a comp increase for the money spent. Head gaskets,milling the heads, intake gaskets, al the time for the teardown, possible rocker arm geometry issues, have you check this already, its most commonly overlooked area of engines. The milling can bring some demons out in the rocker geometry if you are already borderline, you may end up needing new pushrods after decking. I say run the damn thing and be happy you are pump gas compliant on the compression ratio. But you really need to give more info on the engine and cam so people who know cams can figure out timing events and give you a better idea, without all the data you are pissing in the wind and you are getting all wet because then its a matter of opinion and opinions are like a@@holes every one has one!!!!!

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

bnio, no that is not my setup in my sig..new set up now..all forged eagle rotating assembly with 6" h-beam rods. And no im not gonna live with it cuz its not making anymore then 320 horse to the wheels..That pathetic. My old setup made way more (420 wrhp/ 435 ft.lbs) with smaller cam and cast iron eagle heads.

The specs on the cam are 230/236 duration @ .050, 113 lobe sep. lift .575.

And the reason for needing more compression i am not sure of. Thats just wat jim said from TPIS specialties that the cam required 11 to 1.

If you guys need to know anything else just ask, i no all the specs off the top of my head. Thanks guys

Guest

Well that is pretty vague and IMO just sounds to me like he was trying to make a buck off you by selling you parts and labor.

I have that cam in a 350 with 10.0:1 and it does fine. Makes more power than yours, through stock runners. I would find another tree to bark up than a compression ratio change. Maybe the heads dont flow well and that is where it is bottled up.

leeperryracing

I totally agree....that cam is not huge by any stretch to require any higher than 10.1-10.5 max. It will/should make good power with the right heads and intake though. Find a new dyno shop, they're trying to stick their hands in your pockets!

built91Z28

I dont think you will need 11:1 with that cam either. When I was switching to a solid roller setup I talked to Comp Cams for a recomendation. I have 64cc aluminum heads and roughly 10.5:1 CR. They sold me a 236 @.050" with .550 lift on a 110 LSA. So my cam is bigger than yours and even their website says this cam is fine with 10:1

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

wow guys thanks so much for the input. I thought the same thing, that my compression was fine!! So now id have to agree with madmax. I think its in the cheap heads..Does anyone have some flow numbers off there heads so i can compare them to the strikeforce. I got some flow numbers for them now. Thanks guys

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

i changed my sig guys so thats all current info now! thanks

Guest

I dont have mine around at the moment. Look up the AFR 195 Eliminator numbers, I'm close enough to those.

bnio

OK this may be a little but here it goes.

From what I have heard the strike force are a pro topline / proaction copy. I looked at some initial pics and it appears like the same things. I have experience with the pro topline stuff. They are very sensitive on getting good port alignment for maximizing the flow. I have my own flowbench and have done extensive work with the pro topline heads. So here are some initial concerns. The ports if like the protops are very tall, so tall in fact you almost need a raised port intake for the 200cc version ( this is the only one I have experience with yours may be different). The entrance is so important that when tested back to back against an afr 210cc intake with the same entrance radius fixture made from plexiglass, the protop appeared to be a poor run of the mill head. The reason was that the fixture plate aligned very well with the afr but not the protop, this caused a loss of over 70 cfm of flow. With fixture the protop looked like this

Fully ported velocity probed on bench
1. plexiglass fixture- 2. radius clay that fit the port -3. holley stealth ram intake bolted on
intake cfm
0.3 185 198 198
0.4 225 248 220
0.5 252 290 224
0.6 255 318 224

Some hard tested facts with good numbers. Why did I bother to post this? There so much that can go right and wrong when building an engine. Having the ability to test setups goes along why in finding out why a combination may not be working. We haven't even looked at the exhaust side yet either. So what this means is that its almost impossible to guess whats happening. It would be nice to say this flows x amount but in fact you really don't know what it flows as a complete unit. Just because the head flows good doesn't mean it all will flow good when put together. Thats why I have a bench because I was sick and tired of guessing whats happening, I wanted to know for sure. There more discouraging then finding out something doesn't work as planned.

Sorry about the rant. Now 420 rwhp on a small cam engine for the street is extremely good why did you change from your original setup???
Also were the engines tested on the same dyno???
Did the operator fudge the correction factors to make you feel better about your original setup, it has been known to happen to make customers "feel better" about the money they just spent.

Anyway stick with your compression thats not the issue for the loss of power. You really need to have the heads flowed on a bench and preferrable a shop that does a well known head so you can compare your results. This is the best way to build a base line for comparing flow figures on a single bench.

Maybe you should go back to your old setup but use your new cam. If it made 420 rwhp on a smaller cam, well dam why change the topend???? Just change the cam.

By the way if you want more info on issues with the port shapes becuase there are some if they are a true protop copy shoot me a pm. The have a serious choke issue at the pushrods which limits the usable rpm range. Min cross sectional area is small, too small. Also port velocities on my ported heads where to high, there is too much of a good thing when it comes to port velocity!!!! With your lower numbers of flow compared to mine you will see that higher in the rpms which is good.

darkhorse91

just wanting to add some helpful info. AFR 195 heads and all you ever needed to know about the 280xfi those are a couple bookmarks i felt were relevant. Also if emissions is not an issue and you wanted a bigger head here is the AFR 210 it's the same price but only flows about 10 cfm more than the 195 at max lift for the 280xfi

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

bnio, thanks for that write up. Interesting stuff in there.

So ive done some thinking after listening to what you guys said and by reading more posts on here and i def. wanna keep the cam i have. And i do feel my compression ratio is perfect for what im doing (street 70%/strip 30%). And i already no everything on my top end is fine besides the heads. So now i gotta find me a set of better flowing heads. End of story lol!

Anybody no anyone on here with that cam? i wanna find out what their using for heads. Thanks fellas

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

What compression ratio are you at now? I agree in that there is nothing wrong with the cam you have. If anything a tad small on the intake side for max power.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

i am at 10.5 right now

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That would be good. Next question is how to you know you are at 10.5:1? Did you do the math or maybe enter the volumes and dimensions into one of the online calculators? I'm just trying to get a reference point.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

i bought the kit directly from eagle and they said with a 64cc chamber head and a so and so thick head gaskets i would achieve a 10.5 to 1 compression ratio. And i put that exact thickness head gasket they said that would work with the 64cc combustion chambers to give me my desired comp. ratio

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of questions. Is that with the pistons at zero deck? Did you measure where the pistons are in the hole or that they are at zero when at top dead center? Also did you measure the heads to insure that they are really 64cc? The reason I'm asking is that most times people don't have the compression they think they do.

As an example my Dart Pro One 200cc heads were supposed to be 64cc and so stamped on the head. In fact they were around 69cc when checked. You have to measure everything to insure that things are as they are suppose to be. More often than not you will find out that they or not. With my example if I had went ahead and built the motor with out checking everything I would have been way down in horsepower.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

^^ that is a very good point and no i did not check either :/ now im a little concerned...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I did a little research on your PBM Strikeforce heads. The reports were all over the place. It appears the basic head is not bad at all. However most people had to do machine work to bring them up to snuff. So if you just bolted them on it would be a crapshoot. One report had the chamber larger than advertised and milling was required. So there are many areas to investigate if you are not making the power that you think you should. It looks like your basic parts are OK and maybe some more machine work is required.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

1989gta, thanks for that info. I may have to take the heads off and take them to a machine shop and have them checked and then have them put on a flow bench

bnio

If you are thinking about keeping the heads then you better check your CSA (cross sectional area)!!! If they are protop/proaction copies they will be too small around 1.8 sq in. through the pushrod area. That will put you at a choke rpm very early in the 5000 rpm range with a 383. So even if they look good on an flowbench they may not work in the real world. I have seen this problem with the Protoplines with excessive port velocity and choke.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

If you are going to take the heads back off and do some machine work I would try and shoot for around 10.75:1 compression ratio. If they were AFR heads with the dual quench pad I would say 11.0:1. I'm not that familiar with the combustion chamber on the Strike Force heads.

The reason being your are going to have to run at least 91 octane gasoline anyways so you might as well get all you can out of the motor. Also see how far down the hole your pistons are at top dead center. A quench of around .040" will do you well. You can go a few thou less. Also the above post is correct going by my research. You might as well do it correctly seeing as you will have the heads off.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

God i just need new heads!! But yes true^^ mys well get it right the first time..So is there anyone else out there that can reccomend me a set of heads that will work awesome with my current cam and current setup. thanks guys!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The best off the shelf heads are the AFR's. I would call Tony Mamo at AFR for his recommendation. I bet he would say the 210cc street head. Then shop around for the best deal. There are a number of people selling AFR heads at a discount. I bet Tony would recommend the 210cc street head. The again he might say the 195cc heads. You can order them already milled to the cc your motor requires.

Another option is to send your heads out to a head porter and have them done over. That may turn out to be cheaper depending on how much you can resell your Strike Force heads for.

bnio

1 vote for AFR heads!!!!

I know, its this guy again talking about cross sectional area, but if you were thinking about keeping your heads and having them worked over make sure you check and find the minimal cross sectional area and make sure they fit your application.

Besides that just go with the AFR and be done with it. They are well thought in design. They just work excellent and make power!!!! Don't throw good money at bad products. You can't polish a turd!!!

Anyway good luck. By the way I am head porter and have dealt with the protopline/proaction heads and they have alot of down sides. I have them and I made them work actually very well but I also spent 40 hours on my flow bench with them also and I still have a compromise with port speed and csa. If I had to do it over again I would just go with AFR. I won't say anymore about CSA. I just want to make sure buyers are aware of this aspect of heads since it is so commonly overlooked and most likely a critical issue with the strike force heads if they are a copy of the protopline heads.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

ya ive heard the AFR's are pretty much the best set of heads outta the box u can get..But there also very expensive! You guys think i could get a set for around 1200?

86White_T/A305

Thought Id chime in a lil on this and that Ive been down this road before.I built a 355 on the cheap side and skimped on parts as much as possible.Used corvette aluminum heads and thought I would have a screaming car.But all i got was headaches..I didnt do enough homework on matching parts or having things checked and before I knew it ..the motor grenaded 3 pistons.

Now im building a 383 with xfi 280 cam afr 195 heads and upgraded springs.I saved up and built as much as I could aside from doing a forged rotating kit.i was on here reading all the threads of guys using this combo making very good power and had good street manners.Ill be in the neighbor hood of 10.2-.5 compression my builder said.I asked about running it at 11.1 and he said for the 10 or so hp increase id get by using a think gasket wont be worth the higher chances or either blowing the gasket out or having it leak.

As for the heads this time i wanted a strong foundation out of the box that if i ever wanted to add more to this motor later it will accept being ported and milled down.I couldnt find nearly as many ppl complain about buying afr heads compared to how many guys just threw them on and never looked back.

Mine should be running by next weekend and ill break it in and get it tuned before i find out what she will put down to the wheels.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the input 86!

As you can see in my sig the only thing i skimped on was the heads. All the other parts are proven on here to do the job the way i intend. I did lots of research before picking all my parts for my 383, but the heads i looked over ..so now im stuck till my or 91 figure out wat it is. Or the doc!

Others opinions needed and welcome!!

Atilla the Fun

I hate to join a thread after it gets to 5 posts, but curiousity made me look, since parts combos is my whole life, literally. I skipped most of the posts. I do still have A.D.D., even at my age.
As I understand it, you have a 10:1 383 with aluminum 64cc / 200 cc Chinese heads, a 230/236-113 hydraulic roller, and TPiS doesn't like it. Have I hit it? If so, I'd comment that it sounds like a good start if you're using the TPis Mini-Ram, or the Mini-Ram II.
Assuming that you are, then 11:1 would be helpful, but NOT necessary. Your low end might be a bit lazy, but a looser converter and more rear gear will compensate.
The trouble with mystery heads is you never know how they flow.
I wouldn't change heads, I'd change tuning shops. TPiS is good, but they can be dicks, and they aren't your only option. Closest maybe, but not only.

86White_T/A305

Aside from the heads you have now..is the block a full roller block or retro roller..or hydraulic flat tappet?

You said in the first post you want close to 500fwhp and 430rwhp but that would be kinda hard to do.From what Ive seen..not personal experience..with a hsr or miniram or super ram.. alot of guys were getting between 360-400rwhp on a setups similar to our depending on induction,transmission and tube playing a major part aswell.

What was your previous setup and tune making?

Atilla the Fun

500 crank and 430 rear wheel with a stick is realistic with a Mini-Ram II, AFR heads and the next smaller XFI roller cam.

86White_T/A305

I know its possible but I would assume alot to do with those numbers is the tune.I havent seen many that high up even being stick.I dont think the OP is running t-56 or t-5 which is why I think he will have more powertrain loss but I could be wrong.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"and the next smaller XFI roller cam"

We have a few 355 cars running the XFI280 with great results and passing California smog to boot. This is one case where we will have to disagree especially in a 383.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Dyno numbers will vary. 430 is a high figure to get out of an auto but can be done. I would think that cam is capable from what i've seen from some of the LT4 vette guys. My 383 only made about 400whp in summer heat but trapped 119 in a 3450lb raceweight. I've seen higher dyno numbers not trap that good in similar weight cars.

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

^^Why the mini ram 2? and y the smaller xfi cam? I understand the AFR part lol(ps: motors 10.5 to 1 comp)

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

its a full roller block

Cody Ashby

iTrader: (2)

86 white, I am running a built 700r4 with a 3000 stall and 3:73s out back.

86White_T/A305

My block is a 86 4 bolt.So its not a full roller but has the bosses so it could be converted easily.Im using the hyd flat tappet version of the xfi280 cam.I do have a built 700r4 with 3.23 gear.If I can get 360rwhp+ Ill be more than happy.Im sure torque will be higher than that.

Atilla the Fun

I think you took me wrong. I wasn't suggesting the OP step down, I was specifying that I'm convinced it doesn't take the OP's cam to get to his goal of 500 crank HP if the heads, intake and exhaust are right.
It being an automatic, this larger cam will be necessary to hit 430 rwhp. In fact, I expect the current cam to only hit 409.5 rwhp.
I don't see my TPiS catalog, it's under one of these piles, but IIRC, the Mini 2 uses the Fel-Pro 1205 intake gasket, like most 200cc heads, while the Mini 1 uses the 1204, like most 180cc heads.
409.5 divided by 0.78 ( for the automatic ) is the 525 HP I estimate with this cam, and the AFR heads, at 11:1.
Atilla's air dyno has decreed it :-)

darkhorse91

88BlackZ-51 was selling them for about 1295 i believe. Comes straight from AFR too.

Atilla the Fun

Plus you can mill them to 58cc with no worries.