bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I finally got around to swapping a new motor into my vert, the old 305 just wasnt cutting it. Now I have problems that I will be trying to resolve as quickly as I can.

Engine specs:
86+ 350 block
.040 over bore
Flat top pistons
PM rods
Stock cam, lifters, rockers, etc.
906 Vortec heads
Edelbrock performer Intake
Edelbrock 1406 Carburetor
Edelbrock headers, through 3" Flowmaster 80 series
Hei Vac advance distributor


My problems are:
Car will only fire when the throttle is held at WOT, but barely runs, vibrates back and forth in a violent manner, seems like its not firing on all cylinders or something. I think I set the valves properly, I went through and when I thought both valves on a cylinder were fully closed, I set them at zero lash, and went 1 full turn more. Set the engine at TDC, when the #1 piston was pushing air out of the spark plug hole. Dropped the dizzy in, and set the spark plug wires in the proper firing order, clockwise.

I have double checked the order of the plug wires, and they are correct. The problem, to me, seems to be a timing/valve problem. Car was backfiring really bad through the carburetor before I went and bought a brand new carb, it just acts the same as it did.

Tomorrow I am going to pull the #1 spark plug, and reset TDC, and verify that I have my #1 plug wire ran the correct way, If that proves that I have it correct already, than I will pull the valve covers, and back each rocker nut off by 1/2 a turn, to ensure they arent too tight.

Any and all help is appreciated, as always!

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Update:

Went ahead and pulled the valve covers back off, and et the valves the long way. I had someone in the car tapping the engine over with the key, waited for one valve of one cylinder to close, and loosened it until i could only spin the pushrod with my finger, than went 1/2 a turn tighter, I did this on all of them. I also pulled #1 plug, set TDC to ensure that my #1 plug wire was ran properly, and hooked everything back up. Went to start the engine, the pump primes, now I have NO fuel pressure. I poured fuel directly into the carb, and it acts like it wants to start, but just wont.

This thing is driving me crazy, What would cause my fuel pressure to just vanish?

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Anybody?

Need the help.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Still no fuel pressure, pump primes and everything, I dont get it.

I pulled the distributor totally out, and reset tdc, and popped it back in, hooked everything BACK up, and guess what? Same exact results.

I am losing my mind troubleshooting this thing.

The motor is making a strange sound turning over, not like any SBC should sound when its turning over, a real slow, drawn out sound, like something is holding it back. I went and bought a brand new battery for it, and same problem. Could I be 180* out, still?! What is a sure-fire way to make sure I am on TDC at the compression stroke? I cant tell with a piece of wire in the plug hole, if the piston is there or not, I put my finger over the plug hole, and I cant feel air pushing at me at all, and I even popped the valve cover off to see if both valves were closed, and it seemed like they were.

I am really getting frustrated with it. ANY help would be AWESOME!

Awesome-X

It does sound like you might be 180 out, I'd like to help more but sadly I'm not a mechanic, really..

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Do you have a timing light to set the initial timing?

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

if it was flooded it likely fouled the plugs. black plugs don't fire. make sure that fuel pressure is no more than 5psi on an edelbrock. if you're unsure on the valve adjustment a compression test will show if they are out of spec.

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

to make sure you're on tdc comp stroke you have to rotate the crankshaft in the correct direction and watch the cam lobes. when the intake valve closes the piston moves up. when its all the way up. that is tdc comp stroke

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Cool, which one is the intake valve, the first, or second one?

I do have access to a timing light, but I cant get it running to set the timing.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I also noticed that as the distributor rotor turns, I only see spark on some of the terminals, it seems to skip a couple (clear cap). Whats that about?

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

"Cool, which one is the intake valve, the first, or second one?" ...you may need a mechanic

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Bah, I dont need any mechanic. I built the engine myself, I do everything, except mount tires, myself. Comments like that are counter-productive.

I appreciate the help anyway.

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

you built the engine and it didn't work. i can't tell you much more than a few good books can. you may need someone experienced to come look at it. that would be the most productive thing you could do at this point.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I forgot to mention, when I had it in my formula, I got it running first try. The only difference with that was I had a stock distributor and stock rochester Qjet. Tomorrow I am going to pull the distributor again, and pull the valve cover off, and do what you suggested. If I dont get anything after that, I will have to see where I can go from there.

Thanks.

89fireeagle

well if the dizzy only fires on some of the studs that might be a good thing to fix that might be the problem

cooter26

iTrader: (1)

Your valves are off, thats whats making the engine crank over slow and sound wierd. To tell which valve is intake and which is exaust just look at your intake manifold where the runners go into the heads that valve is intake and vice versa for the exaust manifold and exaust valve. The best way to set them is take all your plugs out, find TDC on #1 by spinning the crankshaft over by hand with a ratchet or breaker bar, get a mirror and flashlight and watch the piston come up, it will float at the top for a sec before it starts down, thats when you want to set both the exaust and intake valve, go all the way around following the firing order. if you have hydraulic lifters tighten untill it dosent spin easy then 1/4 turn more.
There are 3 or 4 other ways to do this that involve turning the motor over less times but this is the most accurate way.

cooter26

iTrader: (1)

I read "full roller" meaning roller lifters your cam should have come with lash specs and you should use feeler gauges to set the lash do not use the spin and 1/4 turn method that is for hydraulic lifters only.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

That'll be enough of that type of talk, thank you.

I suspect your rockers are improperly adjusted. There is a very simple method to adjust rockers that doesn't require precise knowledge of engine position:
1) Loosen all of the rocker arms.
2) Bring the engine to the TDC mark (doesn't matter if it's on #1 or #6 firing position).
3) Take the slack out of all of the rockers (just take out the slack, nothing more at this point).
4) Rotate the crankshaft 1/2 turn.
5) Take the slack out of any loose rockers (should be 12 of them loose, but check them all).
6) Rotate the crankshaft another 1/2 turn in the same direction (back to TDC).
7) Take the slack out of any loose rockers (should be 8 of them loose, but check them all).
8) Rotate the crankshaft another 1/2 turn in the same direction.
9) Take the slack out of any loose rockers (getting the picture yet? There should be 4 loose, but check them all).
10) Give each rocker one additional full turn down.
11) You're done.

Note: This only works with hydraulic lifters.

Pulling the #1 spark plug and watching for compression as the crank approaches TDC is the "best" way to determine #1 firing position. You can be fooled looking at the rockers.

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

Just to throw my two cents in the works. Do what five7kid said and adjust the rockers just to make sure. Then, I would check the dizzy to see if its 180 out. The easy way is to roll the motor to #1 TDC. When turning over, watch for the intake valve(the second valve from the front when looking at it) to open, then close as the piston rises. At TDC, look at the rotor and see if its lined up close to the #1 stud, then the dizzy is in correct. Thats my trick for initial timing, I can get more in depth if you want. Just to make sure you know, the #1 stud is the second one up from the left from the where the connectors are. If those all are correct, then I would check for a loose ground or connector on the dizzy. If all else fails, try replacing the cap and rotor too.

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

if all the rockers are loose there will be no compression to look for. when i first started i had an experienced mechanic (buddy) who i had to call over many times. i wasn't trynig to be a jerk...

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

The piston is still going to rise in the cylinder though. If anything, take the plug out, hold a finger over the plug hole, turn the motor over and when the piston is rising, the pressure will blow your finger off the hole. I actually dont look for the piston, I go off the timing marks on the balancer.

chas0218

I just stick my finger right in the whole and when i feel some pressure i pull it out to hear a pshhh noise which then also tells me is on the compression stroke.

How old is the dizzy's cap, rotor, and coil?

If your not seeing spark on 2 terminals then trace the wires to check and make sure they are connected and tight. I know my wires go on hard so i really have to use some elbow grease.

On a side note does it spit or sputter like it wants to start or just crank?

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Thanks for all the replies guys, Im still stuck on a few things though.

When you say "take the slack out" you mean to tighten them until I can barely spin the pushrod, correct?

When you say it only works on hydraulic lifters, does that mean it wont work with hydraulic 'roller' lifters? My engine has the bearing that rolls on the camshaft, instead of the type that just rests on the camshaft. (What cooter said)

The distributor (Cap, rotor, everything) is brand new, its just one of those $50 ones, it seems to be a quality piece, though.

The engine will 'try' to start with a bit of fuel poured in the carb, but just backfires like crazy, and doesnt start.

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

if your lifters are hyd roller it will work. really solid lifters are easier imo but less forgiving if not done right. with taking the slack out it doesnt necessarily mean until you can't turn it anymore. i've completely bottomed a lifter out and was still able to turn the pushrod. just until it contacts. its really a feel you'll acquire with experience.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Alright, cool. Im gettin up early tomorrow, I am determined to get this damned thing fired up, so I will have results tomorrow.

Thanks.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I think I just realized my mistake, having read through this thread again.

On the Vacuum advance distributors, does #1 plug wire have a specific post that is ALWAYS has to be on? I thought it didnt matter, as long as it was aligned with TDC.

I just browsed a site, and it said to have the distributor striker pointing at the 6:30 position, and then to set it up that way. What does it matter where the distributor is pointing, as long as its pointing at #1?

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

If you reread my first post, I mentioned what terminal #1 is on the cap. The firing order then follows suit after that. Also, make sure the dizzy is in properly.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Yes, yours is the post I saw that in. Today I pulled the distributor out, again, and reset TDC. I pointed the striker on the terminal 2 spaces left of the wiring block. I tried to crank it, and it let out the loudest ear piercing backfire through the exhaust I have ever heard, I mean alarmingly loud. After that, I figured this was a good time to readjust ALL of the valves, I followed five7's steps to adjusing valves, put the covers back on, poured a little fuel in the carb, and it seems like the engine wants to run now. I cant get it to idle, or start without pouring fuel in the carb, because for some reason, I now have 0 fuel pressure.

Here are some pics:
(Ignore the ugly wiring, I will clean it all up when she runs )







And can anyone tell me if these lines on the FPR are ran correctly?
I have them as follows:

Side port #1: To Carburetor
Side port #2: To 3/8 Rubber line coming from the car
Side port #3: Plugged
Side port #4: Plugged
Bottom Port: To 5/16 Rubber line coming from car

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

OK, it looks like your fuel lines are ok. That mallory regulator has the adjustment nut on top that controls the pressure. Turn the key on and ensure the pump is running. Then loosen the jam nut and move the screw out if I remember right to open the regulator and increase pressure. The pressure gauge should register as long as the pump is putting out. You can also try capping that vacuum line, I know its really meant for forced induction application use and can play around with the pressure a bit when used. Hopefully, that will solve the fuel issue. Looking at the dizzy, my first assumption is that it is off a tooth. On almost all the hei's I have ever done, the vacuum modulator is almost by the #8 intake runner with the vacuum port pointing at the RH headlight. Even if it was off, as long as you are at TDC #1 on the rotor is pointing right at the terminal 1, it will still work, it just does not give you a lot of room for advancing the timing before it hits the firewall. One last time, I would reverify #1 TDC on the compression stoke and get it absolutely close as you can to TDC, then turn the dizzy to be exactly centered on the terminal for #1. Now, after that, turn the dizzy clockwise just a little bit and snug it down. What you are doing now is advancing the spark a few degrees to help in initial start up. That will be close enough to get it running so you can set the timing properly. That is the trick I have used for years and it has not let me down yet.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Okay, I traced the 0 fuel pressure down to the FPR. Now I have way too much pressure. No matter how I adjust the screw on top, the pressure is registering at 15psi+, no matter what. The pump just primes for the initial 3 seconds, and cuts off. I also cant seem to stop the damned FPR from leaking. No matter what I do, there is always fuel leaking from it, getting annoying.

How can the distributor be a tooth off, when I set the striker on TDC #1 cylinder, etc... I have always been told, and have read, that the position of the #1 cylinder doesnt matter, as long as the firing order is set accordingly, I think there is enough room for adjusting timing.

I got it to start, and run a little, but it sounded awful, throttle was all over the place, and I had no control over it, and it just cuts itself off. I still notice that there is only spark on a few of the terminals inside the distributor, could my plugs be fouled, and not sparking?



EDIT:

I was wrong about how I had the FPR fuel lines hooked up.

Here is how they actually are:

Side port #1: To carburetor
Side port #2: To 5/16 line from car
Side port #3: Plugged
Side port #4: Plugged
Bottom port: 3/8 line from car

ksith

when me and a buddy dropped my 350 in my t/a we went to start it up and it was acting like you said your was. we turned the dizzy 180 degrees and that solved it. had to adjust timing a little after that. i would for sure check to see if the dizzy is 180 out.

Gregzz4

I noticed a couple of things that may or may not help you.....
Your pics of the dizzy makes me think you are WAY too far retarded - could point to dizzy being off
You say it backfires a whole lot - tells me your dizzy is out
Someone stated max 5PSI fuel - you'd be OK with up to 7PSI
Just my 25c

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

How would you be able to tell by where the distributor is, whether it is advanced, or retarded? Number one is on the 2nd post from the left of the wiring block, I havent been able to get it running nearly long, or well enough to time it with a light.

I have set the Timing FOUR times now
I have adjusted the valves FOUR times as well
I have Re-arranged the hoses on the fpr FIVE times now

I am getting really frustrated. How could I have had this motor running, first try in another car, but cant get this damn thing anywhere near running now?! None of this makes sense to me right now.

I need a definitive answer for:

Does the distributor rotor HAVE to be pointing one SPECIFIC direction (IE: Towards the First cylinder) and the distributor cap HAVE to be positioned one SPECIFIC way (IE: Vac adv. can at 8:00) for this thing to run? I am losing my mind trouble shooting this thing. I didnt think I would have these problems!

DemonYusuke

I can tell you the issue is definitely timing its sounds like mine was today all over the place then finally got it timed right and she purrs like a kitten, more like a mountain lion.

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

Where you located in Fl? If you are close I may run down and hook you up. PS If my wife will let me.

SDIF

In looking at your pictures it appears that the cap is not wired correctly. I am trying to trace the wires and cant follow the 18436572 firing order.

NO THE CAP DOES NOT CARE HOW IT IS WIRED WITH A CARB. Just get the order right and make sure that the rotor is set to #1 spark plug.

Rear of Engine toward the driver

8 7 To the left is the names of the cylinders on a SBC
6 5
4 3
2 1

Radiator side

Make sure it is wired correctly.

Pull all the plugs the wires that are not firing is because the plug is not firing. If you bent the electrod or fouled a plug super bad it may be toast.

Check you plugs to make sure you have a gap.

On adjusting the valves... the method of spinning the pushrod is total BS. You will be able to spin it even after the proper amount of slack is taken out. When you can not move the push rod up and down by hand is when you want to turn the adjuster nuts 1/2 turn. Your valves are too tightly adjusted. All the books are wrong on this.

Good Luck! I admire you determination and passion in pursuing your dream.

We all had to start somewhere. I have been stumped by these same issues and should have know better. After you do it a few times, it will be like tying your shoes.


The world is full of talkers and doers. You are a doer

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Ive been there and done that. In my case the dizzy was 180 out. After that it was backfiring and sputtering til I got the timing right. Ive had the dizzy in and out a bunch of times, alwys sucks when I forget to mark where the rotor and cap were pointed.

The rotor in teh dizzy turns clockwise. I think it should fire at zero degrees advanced but mine was goofy there. I like to find TDC, and I move the dizzy so that the #1 terminal is about an inch in front of the rotor when the motor is at #1 TDC. You'll have to play with it, but that's been close enough for me a lot of the times I've messed with it.

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

Whats ironic is that I had the same issue with my fpr on mine. I had to get a low psi pump in order for it to work properly. Whats even more strange is that I have used that regulator on another vehicle, high pressure pump and it worked great. I think it has to do with the smaller return line on our f bods. The 3/8 line will be the feed line from the pump and the 5/16 is the return line to the tank. That line will be on the bottom of the regulator. What I would do next is get a universal pump from a parts store, throw it in and disconnect power to the stock pump. Did you use thread sealant on the fittings into the regulator? You need it plus they need to really tight.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You know, I'd always heard those regulators were sensitive to orientation. Maybe that's wrong, but I was always told that they have to be mounted solidly and level to properly regulate.

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

I've heard that also. I know when I first tried in my car, it was straight up and mounted solid, but it acted just like his did yesterday. The last time I used on was on my old 351C and it worked great, even with the high pressure stock pump in the truck it was in.

ksith

the distributor is what the sparkplug wires go to. and yes it does matter which way it goes. when you drop it in it will only seat all the way down in two ways. pointing at #1 or 180 degrees out. and yes the cap only goes on one way as well. mine has a little tab on it that lines up with a slot in the distributor body. the vacuum canister should also be on the passenger side of the engine. also when i was first learning how to set my valve lash with hydraulic lifters i tightened them down too much resulting in loss of compression but i soon solved and fixed the problem

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

the distributor can go in just one tooth off or 2 or 3 or 180* out etc... if it does go all the way down just rotate the engine a little and it will fall in. it has to line up with the oil pump shaft.

Gregzz4

The reason I think it's far out is the location of your advance pot.
It looks like it's @ about 9:30 and 7:00 gives me 11 Degrees Advance.
And with that said, my advance pot's actual vaccuum port sits pretty much right below #4 terminal, which also puts my #1 where you have yours. My #1 and #8 are directly behind the carb, flanking it as in they are very square to it if you catch my bad description.
If your wires are all correct, try counter-clockwise to place 1 & 8 like I described.
Your wires look new. Are they?
Hope you get 'er goin' without too much more pain.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I appreciate everyones help, I am just going to buy new spark plugs, gap them, and install them to see if that solves anything. I KNOW I have the distributor right. I set Top dead center,, dropped the distributor in, set the cap with the 2nd from the left terminal right over the striker, and placed my #1 wire there, and then followed the firing order from there. If I turn the distributor counter-clockwise to place those wires there, then my firing order will be all out of whack, that doesnt make sense to me??

I set the valves just how Five7 said to, and when following his advice, I have never been steered in the wrong direction.

Would it make any sense to just move the #1 spark plug wire 4 spaces over, and then follow the firing order, to make it 180*'s the other way? Or is that a bad idea?

It IS acting like it is 180* out, though I have heard that an engine wont even fire when it is 180* out? When it finally does fire, it shakes viloently, sounds like garbage, and backfires unburnt fuel through the top of the carb, then dies.

I will be, once again, working on this motor tomorrow, trying to figure out this never-ending-puzzle of an engine.

Thanks again guys! (And thanks SDIF, for your kind comments )

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

The plug wires are newer, not too new, not too old, and a few of them are from a different set, becuase some of the blue ones are WAY too short to keep re-arranging. I should buy new ones, but don't have the funds right now, this engine is breaking the bank.

SDIF

Check your firing order. Tell me exactly how you wired the cap.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Ill check it right now (even though I have checked it, probably a total of eight times, lol)

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Just checked them, the firing order is 100% correct, but I did notice that the #1, #5, and #7 spark plug wires seemed to not be seated on the spark plugs correctly. I am going to replace all of the plugs tomorrow, and make sure that the wires are seated correctly, and go from there.

SDIF

Were those the ones that were not firing?

You said earlier that you wired the distributer counter clockwise.

I should be wired clockwise. 18436572 the rotor spins clockwise.

When replacing the plugs, check to make sure that you are at TDC on #1. Set the rotor pointer to slightly ahead of the #1 post on the dist cap.

By slightly ahead I mean that the rotor will have to rotate clockwise before being positioned below the post.

If it fails to crank, turn the distributer slightly counter clockwise to advance timing and try again. If this fails turn it slightly clockwise to retard timing and try again.

The engine should fire and run if all is well.

PUT AN AIR CLEANER ON IT BEFORE TRYING TO CRANK IT AND HAVE A FIRE BOTTLE READY OR SOME WATER.

I have always taken the precaution and never had to use either. If you are prepared for disaster it never happens.

SDIF

Also tell me which wire in the picture is going to the # 8 cylinder.

Tell me as many as you can from the picture.

I still does not look right.

You may have changed the wires since the picture was taken too.