Grumbles

This is going to be a reader, so I'd advise surfing away if you don't like things to get too wordy. However, I felt I needed to update you folks on how things are going seeing as I've been absent for some time.

So, as of a few months ago I had buttoned it back up with the carb sitting in place of the TBI system, but I'd done an amateur job and fouled the timing up (as well as all my pushrods, more on that later), and so the firebird sat neglected waiting for tax season.

Well February rolled around and I got my returns in, and I decided to splurge a bit and picked up an L98 cam from a member on here as well as some 416 heads via ebay, new lifters, and new rockers (roller tip, call me a cheapskate if you will), and a set of new head bolts because the old ones were looking a fair bit questionable. Now at the time I was still sitting on about 800 bucks in cash and decided hey, I'll find some gearhead on craigslist to do it, seeing as I did a bang-up job the first time and all. Not 5 minutes after I put my add up describing the sort of work I wanted done (top-swap, cam included, not looking to pay mechanic's hourly or have any additional 'emergency' work done. just a standard top swap) I get a call from a gentleman whom, for legal reasons we shall refer to as Mr. Goodcop.

Now Goodcop was a pretty nice guy over the phone. I told him what he'd be looking at (Top-ended it the first time when I swapped to carb, all the A.I.R. equipment was AWOL, all the TBI wires still in place because I was loathe to clip them and wanted to shrink wrap them at some point, hadn't started it, timing was foul) and he quoted me the reasonable price of 475 out the door. Not a bad deal I thought, for a change, here is a guy in the car industry who's not a toolbag. So I load the flamin' turd up and proceed to tow-dolly it out to him. This is where things begin to go south.

I call Goodcop and inform him that we are en route. He says he's offsite, but his mechanic (who has been building dragsters for 30 years) is there to receive. We stop in front of the place and commence to herniate ourselves rocking a 3500 lb vehicle off the tow dolly while this older gentleman watches commenting on the inadequacy of all things produced nowadays. Enter, Mr. Badcop. According to him, my 800 dollar Firebird's engine bay is "a sh*tstorm" amongst many other problematic things. You would think from the reaction both of these gentlemen yielded, this was the worst engine bay they had ever seen in three decades of car building. This is odd, because in my 3 years of car owning, I can say I've seen worse, and they ran fine.

Now, I have this one qualm with guys who work on cars for a living. They tends to be turdbags. It seems my firebird was not, in fact, the opportunity to earn a quick buck from an agreeable guy, but actually a tremendous burden heaped upon the shoulders of these two down-trodden men, from which there could be no escape. This is the very attitude that originally drove me to learn cars. I HATE dealing with the sort of person that wants absolutely nothing to do with you and does whatever they can to be as pessimistic and unhelpful as possible...especially when you are paying them to behave in this fashion.

To be fair to these guys, I had done a pretty good job of botching the top swap. Pulling the valve covers revealed the cause of my car's inability to fire up. I had managed to crank the rocker arms down far enough to not only bend the bejesus out of every single connecting rod; I had also managed to tag 6 out of 8 pistons with the intake valves. Being a recent Ford convert, I had mistakenly torqued the rockers down thinking they were similar to Ford's pedestal mounts. Obviously, this was incorrect. Lesson learned. Upon learning this, and inquiring about it, Badcop surprised me. I explained to him that I had clearly screwed it up, and would like to learn to do it right, and instead of berating me, he explained how chevrolet valve lash worked.

Badcop would continue to surprise me throughout this ordeal, as Goodcop continued telling me that the motor would absolutely implode and create a black hole in the universe because of the dings in the pistons that would definitely shatter them on the first turn, and that he would need 1000 dollars to redo the bottom end. My finger was almost in the upright position when Badcop chimed in saying that that wouldn't NECCESSARILY occur and the motor might be fine, it all depended on whether or not the cast metal of the pistons had been compromised badly enough. Being a close student of metallurgy, this was my original thought seeing the damage. Cast iron slates before it cracks. Could the pistons crack? potentially. Was it guaranteed? Of course not.

Goodcop's steam was none diminished though as he pointed down to the cam bearings, tell me they were shot, and that the main bearings probably would be too. This was of course stating the obvious as the motor had close to 180k on it when I picked it up. I need to pull this! It needs to be vatted and honed! This cam will shoot straight out of the engine! Apparently Camshafts are projectiles where Goodcop comes from, and aren't in fact held in place by lobe shape, gears and a f$%king thrust plate. This is not to say that the cam bearings couldn't do with a replacing, this is to say that it not a matter to be deeply concerned over. The bearing surfaces were smooth (if showing a good deal of brass) and the cam showed no play at all. Goodcop's defeatist attitude was starting to get to me.

I had purchased centerbolt valve covers, which ended up being wrong for the heads, so I went out foraging for the proper pushrods and valve covers while goodcop and badcop muttered darkly about how grim things appeared to be. When I returned, pushrods in tow, I found that Goodcop had managed to ignore the fact that I had supplied him with an electronic radiator fan control and had instead punched out the freeze plug on the 416 heads to use an inferior sensor, effectively wasting his time and my money. 75 dollars worth of merch to return to Summit? Check, and counting! The pushrods ended up being the wrong length as well, almost an inch too tall. How this occurred was beyond me, but instead of assuming that Checker had simply made a mistake, they decided I had a different motor. According to them, the power plant in my 1988 Formula Firebird TBI was in fact a Pontiac 301. This would naturally explain the discrepancy with the rod length. The factory must have brought it’s Pontiac casting plant out of retirement just to cast the block for my car. It was either that or some shiesty guy had snuck under my hood at some point in the car’s history, swapped the block, and reinstalled the factory transmission, 187 centerbolt-style heads and TBI unit on top of it. Now I don’t pretend to know the first thing about Pontiac motors, but a cursory browse of the internet shows chevy and Pontiac heads are nothing alike and don’t bolt up at all. Then of course is there’s the fact that the Pontiac 301 had a 4” bore and this motor is clearly 3.76. The 301 came with offset dished pistons while these are centered.

The whole experience has left me frazzled, about 200 bucks over my goal, and all-in-all pretty disillusioned with both my ability as a novice mechanic and people’s ability to adapt and adjust and above all just shut-the-hell-up-and-do-what-I’m-paying-them-for. I’m supposed to be picking it up tomorrow. I hope to finish it quickly and painlessly, and never speak with these gentlemen again.

From this I have learned first and foremost that Chevy heads are NOT pedestal mount, and secondly that despite it being more work, at least when I do it myself the only person I hear bitching is me. I swear if I hear another “650 CFM is too much carb!” I’m going to flip. Never again man.

Viprklr

iTrader: (5)

That and the outrageous prices that mechanics charge led me to magnifying my tool arsenal and just doing the work myself.

I paid someone to build and swap an engine into a turbo 4 for me before. 1800 miles and it was knocking. I figured that for $2000 I could screw it up just as much. I've never looked back since.

ksith

i completely agree. i had a gentleman at a local napa machine shop rebuild an engine for me costing roughly 2500. all i had to do was put on the oil pan and intake/carb and front timing cover. less then 50 miles later engine overheats and hydrolocks. brought it in and he says that its not warrantied cause it overheated. no problem i say just find me a new block and quote me a price he never returned my calls i eventually called the owner of the chain and said i either want my 2500 back or an engine with the exact specs as the last one. i got the engine and didnt pay a dime for it.

Rolling Thunder

Yea the problem with not knowing how to do stuff yourself. you cant really take these cars to the shop because their so old no one knows about them and end up wasting a lot of your money learning. In this case I dont want to say they knew nothing but at the same time there are some holes in what they claimed like the Pontiac motor It just wouldn't work atleast not as they claimed. This story was either what they honestly believed (which shows their ignorance) or a story the told you to try and cover up their ignorance (again showing their ignorance). Although in their defence if things were in such poor shape I wouldn't want to do the work either especially if it means taking short cuts on things i believe to be necessary because the customer wants only what he wants done because any problems that occur after that will be the result of work I did true or not. Its like if i was doing a new cam but the customer didnt want me to put in new springs to match the cam. New springs are needed and there may be failures if i don't and even if i give them a heads up they still would blame me if it failed. However its not all bad this is great motivation to learn to do it yourself. Its not too hard once you learn it motors for the most part are all the same just the details vary like the adjustment of the rocker arms. Dont be afraid to screw up to the point you dont want to risk working on it yourself be afraid enough to read up in it because you know if you dont bad things can happen lol. Besides even though mistakes can be costly people pay to go to school to learn what your learning by doing it yourself. Consider your mistakes a tuition payment nothing wrong with spending money getting an education lol.

Grumbles

I wasn't worried about my work going into it. I learned i screwed the valve lash up, but everything else was fine and dandy. I explained that I wasn't looking for a guarantee, I just wanted them to do the labor.

Part of my emphasis on the condition of the engine compartment was that it was fine. It was missing EGR and had the tbi wires still in it. that is all.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Those two guys sound pretty crazy to me.
The kind of damage you're talking about involving bottomed out hydraulic lifters and piston to valve contact is more serious than a simple patch-up repair can cover.
The valves making contact will be bent, and often the rocker arms as well.
Binding can cause cracks in the valve guides, rocker studs & bosses, and possibly break springs, locks, and retainers. The pushrod damage will be obvious but the other damage may take a closer inspection.
Cast aluminum pistons are quite brittle, so cracking is likely.
Valve contact often ***** the piston sideways in the bore which can do a number of things like:
Break the piston skirts
Bend the wrist pin
Break piston rings
or even crack a cylinder wall.

The lifters could be damaged internally causing them to either bind/stick or just collapse in operation.

Even discounting the rods and bearings, the damage listed above could easily cost well over $1000 to replace or repair the parts involved. I think most people would have started from scratch after an incident like that.

I'm sure the engine damage was the main worry of those two guys, and they probably shouldn't have even took the job unless they have their own machine shop.

The wiring and carb size are really non-factors in this whole deal, and I wouldn't see that as a problem at all. Engine damage involving part contact is a major factor though. Valve to piston contact can damage or destroy almost everything in an engine. You may get lucky and have minimal damage, but then again you may see fallout from this incident down the road.

If you have to use another mechanic in the future, it would probably be worth the time to meet them and check them out thoroughly before making a deal. It may not save you money in the short term, but you would likely be happier over-all with the service.

I had a piston to valve accident about 15 years ago and I decided to repair the engine. It required:
New valves, valve guides, one valve seat, a valve job, pushrods, bearings, two cylinder sleeves, some welding to repair a combustion chamber, and a replacement connecting rod. That's pretty bad, but I realize that it could have been worse.

I may have just missed it in your post, but to me it seemed like you didn't quite realize the extent or ramifications of your mistake. This isn't just an issue of attitude. It's reality.

That said, I think you should start on your second attempt at an engine build as soon as you can, even if this one ends up running without a problem. The reason being is that a mistake like this can be the best teacher you will get.

I wish you all possible luck with your engine and your dealing with those mechanics.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

I run a small business out of my shop in my off hours.I have a pretty good following of loyal customers,according to what I filed on my taxes,I grossed just under 17000 last year.That's a lot of cars when you also figure in a 44 hour a week job.
There are some things here that sound shady,as in them not being able to positively identify your engine.
HOWEVER,before you go in with a "do what I'm paying you to do" attitude,keep in mind that you should feel confident that your mechanic knows more than you do,and is honest.I am aware that this is a tough combination to find,I make a lot of new customers from crooked shops.But if they don't know more than you,why would you pay them to do it for you?
For example:about 6 or 7 months ago,I had a customer call me wanting the engine removed and a salvage yard engine put in it's place,because the local chain auto repair/brake/exhaust center "diagnosed" his engine as "bad".He thought they were too high priced on the work,and I beat their bid.When the wrecker dropped the car off,he followed them out to discuss details of the work.He informed me that the car ran,but poorly,so it wouldn't need to be pushed inside,as he noticed I work alone.I called him after pulling the car inside,and asked if he was dead set on replacing the engine,because I was pretty certain that his wasn't a mechanical issue.He informed me that I work for him,and I was to do what he was paying me to do,because he trusted "his usual" mechanic.The car was a V6 Mustang.I went against his wishes,diagnosed and repaired the issue.I called him the next morning,to tell him his car was repaired.He was a bit upset that I didn't "obey" him,until I told him all he needed were 6 injectors,an ECM,and an oil change due to 4 injectors being hung wide open.His total bill,parts and labor,was about half of what the salvage yard engine alone was going to cost him.I now do all of his work.
Valves smacking pistons is a roll of the dice.You can't know for sure if the piston damage is cosmetic,or there are structural issues.Same with wiped out cam bearings.If I put anything questionable together,and it fails,guess who gets blamed?It will be the guy who did the work every time.

So I'm not saying these guys weren't shady,but I am saying look at the flip side of the coin.No knowledgable mechanic is going to feel good about working on a car with a sloppy or butchered wiring harness,or assembling any part of an engine that is obviously on borrowed time due to damage or wear.Don't ever assume a mechanic is shady,just because he won't do what you tell him to.

SSC

Well hopefully everything works out. When I had the shop I seen allot of hack jobs and fixed allot of hack jobs had people bring in total basket cases some I did turn away most I managed to get working just fine. Last one I remember was a sable this girls boy friend tried to do the heads on 3.8. She came in with a "90% complete" job and wanted me to finish it. I told her I would put the rest togather for $100 but I wasnt sure if the boy friend did the work right and would have to pull everything apart to verify and it would cost more. She chose the $100 route sure enough it ran but not worth a crap. Of course there was the lumina van driven by the 85 year old guy that had a stroke but decided he could rebuild his engine still then gave up and towed the dissasembled van/engine to the shop. I told his daughter new or used engine or to keep on going down the road. Her dad was ticked I would not finish what he started so It went down the road. No shop wanted to work on it so it went back to thier house. I did see them driving it again 4 years later.

Grumbles

It's home and running now.

I'm pretty positive these guys didn't know EVERYTHING for a couple reasons. The first being the block ID, then the older fella telling me that pontiac heads were different from chevy heads. Mind you, this is absolutely true, but the reason he gave me was that the intake bolts were angled differently (which we all i know is the difference between 86-87+ chevy heads, NOT pontiac heads :P). Had he said poncho heads were a completely different shape and had completely different bolt patterns, I'd agree . The last point of 'ehhh' for me was when i noticed my summit HEI dizzy had been connected to a full vacuum port on the manifold.

Regardless, it runs and drives now, albeit extremely loudly (open headers for the moment) and doesn't sound like anything's terribly damaged.

I understand you mechanic people's point of view, it IS a question of who gets blamed and I can understand wanting to CYA. However, when the guy repeatedly reassures you you wont be held responsible if an obvious problem goes downhill, that should be the end of it, at least from my point of view.

Aaaanyway, will be posting pictures of the layout tomorrow, all in all I'm pretty satisfied. Had to get an edelbrock for an exorbitant amount because the holley i had originally picked up for the job ended up being toast, but after i put the edelbrock on it fired right up and ran like a champ. Now I just need the tuning kit so i can get it lean and mean.

Vader

I'd comment, but I'm waiting for the sequel, or at least the Cliff's Notes.

No, actually, I read all of it. There's little doubt that there was a lot of CYA in the conversation, and for good reason. You were out of their presumed comfort range. You took in a non-running and partially disassembled engine (colloquially referred to as a "basket case") and asked that they put it together into a running, fuel burning assembly. I would also have some reservations and want to make clear that the possibility of hidden damage could seriously affect the scope of work.

That said, one might expect a more positive attitude from someone who so willingly holds out his hand to take money from a customer. Clear communication at the outset and along the way would be critical in avoiding surprises and resultant fristrations. I'm guessing that Mr. Goodcop thought he was doing that.

Grumbles

When I first wrote this, I had just returned from receiving considerable verbal abuse from these folks and was a little upset. I do understand the need to cover one's rear, as you never know what to expect from people this day and age.

However, I am a novice car dude. I took it apart and put it back together and screwed up the valve train, this is true. the rest of the motor however was fine. I made it explicitly clear that i would NOT hold any grudges if the thing took a dump on the first crank. It's not a DD and I have plenty of time to rebuild it.

They warned me and that was fine, but it was the continued harping over this and that and "we are miracle workers" that irked me. I wanted to say "No, you aren't, you're guys I paid because i was too lazy to do it myself". Had I popped it open and noticed my error, I would have come here for consultation or found some documentation about the correct way to do a chevy valve train. This combined with a few minor details done wrong (manifold bolts missing their adapters, dizzy on constant vacuum) left me feeling frustrated.

To clarify, I know full well what a half-done engine bay spells for your every day mechanic. These guys weren't your every day mechanic, they were a couple dude who'd found my ad on craigslist and offered to do it in their garage. No warranty was implied, I simply wanted the crap i bought in and the crap I had out. The warnings (and explanation of my error) were helpful, not irritating. It was the defeatist attitude and the constant berating of a guy (me) who worked entirely alone with no outside help and just wanted to learn that annoyed me.

That being said, I'll be keeping in contact with badcop. He might be an irate old fart, and his info might not be 100% right, but when it comes down to 'feeling' things out, he knows his stuff, and of the two of them he was actually the most helpful.

CrAlt

Right off the batt, red flag number one: Quoting a price on a job sight unseen.

ploegi

When I did the wrench turning thing for a living, I gave quotes over the phone on a regular basis. That's what labor time guides are all about. For the cars that came in on a somewhat less than "stock" basis, it was discussed with the customer before the car ever got off the trailer, or into the bay.

You don't need to bring your car to the shop for them to quote you a price. But, bear in mind, if what you bring them is not what they based their price on, you can expect it to change.

CrAlt

I understand quoting from the book... You have a 2004 Honda civic and you need a W/P and belt changed no prob. What the book says is prob on par with what it will really cost..

But if some dude calls you up talking about how he tried swapping the induction system over and this and that on a 20 y/o car and now it don't run... I don't know anyone who would just toss out a number like 475 and do it with out at least looking under the hood. Just way to many variables there. Your just setting your self up for drama.

Vader

Bidding on a job on Craigslist seems just a little odd. At least you got to get out of there with a running vehicle.

Perhaps we can offer some assistance next time.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

the vacuum advance on full intake vacuum is perfectly fine, especially on a performance motor.
a motor can take more ignition timing at cruise than it can when starting, at idle, or at WOT.
the following examples are with the vacuum advance on full intake vacuum.

too high when starting will cause kick back that can damage the flywheel and starter.
depending on the motor, a base of 8~16 usually works for starting.

at idle, most motors need 22~30 degrees of timing.
too little timing at idle and the motor has a poor idle and low vacuum.
idle timing is base + vacuum advance.

too high under WOT will break pistons.
again depending on the motor, 28~36 is a normal range.
base + centrifugal advance = WOT timing.

at cruise most motors can take 40+ degrees of timing.
with the timing too low at cruise, you get a drop in fuel mileage and throttle response.
base + vacuum + partial centrifugal advance = cruise timing.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Full time vacuum advance is the preferred method, unless the engine is 100% stock and you're trying to keep emissions within the stock range.
Performance engines run full manifold vacuum advance.

stoning_volcom

man alive bro if you lived close to me i would have done taht for free! i love doing stuff like that, and prolly wouldve been done faster and cheaper lol well how did it turn out?!?!?

Grumbles

they got it together kinda okay. the timing cover leaks under pressure (found this out testing a buddy's carb) and the guy did the valve lash all wrong, cost me a rocker arm.

Gregzz4

In no way am I defending Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber that received your car but I had to add to this post

I've worked in Rad Shops 20+ Years ( too long ) and sometimes I get grumpy too.
I have to catch myself and bite my tongue when crap comes in the door as I always, in a bad mood, assume that someone wants me to make Chicken Soup out of Chicken Poop

Grumbles

Update:

Finally got all my valves lashed right (ironically this + the wrong timing was what I screwed up in the first place) and now aside from a slight idle lope and a lean stumble at offset (which i caused by intentionally leaning it out to beat emissions) it runs and drives smooth.

With as many times as I've had the covers off and back on I could have probably done the work myself. Alas, lesson learned.