Atilla the Fun

Good job misconstruing me. This is no way to win friends. Admit you're not being realistic, and I've already helped more people on here than you'll ever befriend in your entire life. Have a nice one. Bye.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

that wasnt geared towards u man... n if i offended you then.. sorry... n im not the best with the way i word things... but u gotta realize that im just frustrated... its a lot of stuff that im tryin to learn in a compressed peroid of time... so thanks for the input... later...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

How old are you? How long have you been doing this?

A lot of us have been doing this for a very long time, but clearly remember when we were at the same spot as you. I learned by trying to master one thing at a time. Trying to absorb it all at once would just be too overwelming.


-- Joe

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

26.... how long ive been at this... lets see i bought my car less than i year ago... n got serious about cars.... bout 5 months give or take.... that would be the right word... overwhelming... my way goin about this kinda has to do with my life up until now..(dont wanna get into that)... and i feel like i gotta catch up on time lost... so thats why a lot of times im all over the place... it doesnt help when like u say.... im supposed to concentrate on one thing...when every part of a car relies on a lot of other parts... so thats why even earlier in the thread when i ask a question.. like about cams.. and everyone asks what other parts i have or what i wanna do... i have no idea(well i have some idea)... but how could i focus on just one part like the cam and trying to achieve a goal like 500HP+ and understanding why a handful of cams work when my questions can only be answered by choosin heads to match plus what kind of intake (CFM) i choose plus what carb/injectors i need... and also the reference about choosing a certain cam will effect brakes.. thats why i ask all the questions i ask... thats why i also asked if there are any really detailed and specific books/dvds (id prefer dvd....im more of a see it n understand v.s. a read a book guy.... somethin bout readin that just doesnt wanna stick in my brain)... like i said... i know that this thread can go on forever.. thats why i try and press the issue to cram a lot of info so it doesnt take 1000 pages... so if n e one knows of instructional dvds that cover stuff like cams and cranks and heads... etc...etc... but im lookin for somethin more than just general... like when i bought a dvd for painting my car... it was interestin and only very slightly educational... but i didnt really learn much... id like something that covers a lot of what i need to understand... from basic... like cam lift... duration...LCA... flow...etc.. etc to choosing a cam based on the fact that i myself calculated what works without having to call comp cams and say.. i got this..n this... n this...what do i do? i bet u dont have to do that... and yes its taken a lot of u guys years to learn this stuff.... but thats just my personality... im detail oriented.. as close to perfection when i do somthin im passionate about... im determined to cram and learn at a fast pace.... i can break it down into categories like focusing on engine.. or suspension... or drivetrain... the problem is i dont know where to start... i hope that explains it... one other thing... if i offended or PO'ed anybody... well im sorry... its just that a lot of people that ive talked to say look this up or look that up... well thats kinda hard when 1... i dont know a lot of terms and 2... i have no one to guide me in a direction.... someone to say... "bro start with this... once u understand this move on to that..." ..... ROB

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Ok. So. Lets put you on the right track. I think if you check out a couple of books at the local bookshop, read them over a few times I think you will have enough basic understanding to ask the right questions to get your custom build going. You will know what questions to ask about what specifics, rather than generalizations which are really hard to answer.

First thing I'd like to see you pick up, is Engine Blueprinting:

http://www.themotorbookstore.com/eng...eprinting.html

Next, Smallblock Chevy performance, Vol 2:

http://www.amazon.com/Small-Block-Ch.../dp/0931472148


And last but not least, Modifying Chevy Engines:

http://www.amazon.com/John-Lingenfel.../dp/155788238X


All three books cover in great detail some of the questions you have (overlap, quench, compression) that will put you in the right 'mindset'. Won't make you an engineer overnight, but will set you on the right track.


-- Joe

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

thanks Joe...just outta curiosity.... why out of the many books that are out there did u pick those ones specifically? and the other question... u posted this book.. http://www.themotorbookstore.com/eng...eprinting.html ... now is this one ( http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Bluepri...7113176&sr=8-4 ) the same thing? that way i can order them all from amazon.... oh and another thing.. any instructional dvd's that are really really good(n detailed)?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hi,

Yes that is the same book.

Out of the hundreds of books I've read over the years, I think those 3 explain things very well. They are meant for backyard guys who want to modify their engines or get into racing. They start off with the basics but cover quite a bit.


-- Joe

Atilla the Fun

I aploogize for typing while feeling attached. I'm not an arrogant hot-head, but I really do know it all, and I'm stillm perfectly willing to answer anything you might ask me. I hafta agree with these guys, about trying to take it all in at once, rather than one thing at a time. Learning the background theory of engines in a short time is just going to leave you with gaps. Ever heard that old phrase about giving a person just enough rope to hang themself? Okay, I propose that you figure out your own combo, as you desire, but before starting to actually do it, at least spell it out and let us check for any serious mis-matches, huh? Every week I get at least one new customer accept whatever combo I propose for their project, then spend the next for hours asking questions like "why a 195cc head versus a 180cc?", and "why Dart heads instead of TFS?" And while at first it got old, at this point it's the format I've grown accustomed to.

Atilla the Fun

oops, I mis-typed. That should read "I apologize for typing while feeling attacked"

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

That does sound like a very good idea.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

few things i wanna say... one is about this... Okay, I propose that you figure out your own combo, as you desire, but before starting to actually do it, at least spell it out and let us check for any serious mis-matches, huh? that would be good... i want to leave no room for error (unless i myself apply or attach certain parts wrong..) 2... im all for running stuff by u guys...thats why im hear... i value the judgement of u guys... but only as long as when i finish building whatever it is i decide on, that i can apply that knowledge and those numbers to help with builds in the future wether i do another one of my own or even if a friend comes to me and needs my help... that i can help him/her come to some sort of plan based on what it is they want to achieve.... and thirdly... i glad u understand that i meant... and that i was not trying to be a PR**K towards anyone... i to felt attacked cause of my lack of knowledge.... and i glad that u can look back and remember how it was startin off for u... that its very confusing and overwhelming.... now... hopefully we can move past this little speed bump.... i will try and stick with one thing at a time... which is why ill start with this question... i obviously was thinking about a 383 stroker... but it seems that 9 outta 10 people are tellin me to scratch that idea and go with an LS1 instead.. especially since trying for 500+ from a 383 is achieveable but an LS1 would be more practical and easily get me bigger numbers... so my question is... i found someone that is selling an LS1 bareblock from a 98 Camaro SS for like 300 obo... so i would like to know what to look for... what kind of casting number/what bore.... basically anything and everything that i should ask the guy before i actually buy it.. he says the works in a machine shop... so he mentioned something about the block already being cleaned... not sure if it was deck or honed or whatever else is done with blocks.... he also mentioned that he has 2 of those block... except one doesnt have the main caps (or whatever LS1's have)...something about that the shop was gonna make aftermarket ones? produce em themselves.. this would be a lot easier if i could take someone with me that knows their stuff... cause i dont wanna buy it and end up finding out that i dont have this or that because i didnt know what to look for.... one other thing i wanted to ask... i know this is kinda out there.... but i was wondering if anyone of u guys would be willing to help me out with that.... by that i mean if one of u guys would be generous to either let me call u or i can give my number out so that when i actually go and visit with this guy... either Saturday or Sunday... i could hand him my phone and someone could talk with him and actually ask the questions that i dont know to ask... if not thats cool... and thanks to all u guys for helpin me out.. it means a lot..

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

You probably wouldn't want one without the main caps. If they truly are bare blocks, I'd pass that up. If they are longblocks, (block, heads, rotating assembly), that doesn't seem too bad, assuming they don't need any major work, like the one that needs main caps.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

y? this is what he had posted...

1998 LS1 bare block - clean!! - $300 or best
LS1 heads (pair) - stock - $200 or best
LS1 intake - stock - $150 or best

.....not sure if he still has the heads and intake... didnt ask...just asked bout the block..

Atilla the Fun

Pass on the heads and intake, but jump on the block that has it's original caps, if it is aluminum. Take a magnet off your refrigerator to verify that for yourself. Magnets don't stick to aluminum. Get a written guarantee that it's been tested and has NO cracks. Then take it to another shop and let that shop crack-test it. If it's good, it's a steal, those blocks go for around $1200 new. You can then either build it or resell it to double your money. If you do that, then you can go find yourself a good used LQ4 6.0L from an '01-up truck. Head over to the engine swap section for more info, and join www.ls1tech.com

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It all?

Good question..

In all the simulations and tests I've seen, the Darts don't hold up to the TFS or AFR 195 heads. Considering the cost, the TFS is the best bang for the buck, and if you're going to spend more money the AFR is the obvious choice.


-- Joe

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

so ur tellin me that if i went with AFR id be payin more when i could get the same result (or better) from a set of TFS heads...but spend a lot less? as far as the LS! block... see if its aluminum...check... Get a written guarantee that it's been tested and has NO cracks...actually scratch that... i just called and he didnt do any work to it yet... how much would another shop charge to crack-test it/check it/ all the initial stuff i need to find out if its a good block? (general price).... but i still need to know.... what else should i find out about the block...any specific info. should i look at any measurements... before i buy it....

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

I don't think that's what he meant about the heads. AFRs are definitely better heads, but they do cost more.
You probably don't want to spend $300 on a block, then $150 to have it checked, then be told the block is unusable, and be out $450. It would be a good idea to at least have him give you that written guarantee saying he'll give you your money back if it is found to be damaged or unusable.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

u see my previous post... i thought i heard him say that there was work done... but i just talked to him...asked him the cast number(said hed get back to me)... n he said that he hadnt had work done yet...was planning on it... so is it still possible to get a guarantee? lets see if i can make this a little easier... cause im kinda confused... just for the sake of saying...one of u calls and talks with a guy thats got a LS1 for sale... what do u say and/or ask him... tell me how the conversation should go....

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The TFS do very well for the $1100 price range. AFR 195s have an edge on them, for example, a 500hp motor might make 518-525hp with AFR heads, everything else being equal. For about $500 more.

You gonna run a carb intake and dizzy on the LS1 block?

Nothing wrong with LS1, other than the cost.

My complete 412, will be around $5,000, including sheetmetal, carb, headers, etc. Literally drop in motor. Should be around 500/500 at the flywheel, more or less. That is for a forged crank, forged reverse dome pistons, eagle rods, afr heads, etc.

-- Joe

Atilla the Fun

That's the exact same as the first half of what I suggested.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

carb... probably not.... dizzy? whats that?

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

dizzy=distributor

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

if you don't go carb, you're looking a lot more than just a drop in.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

meaning what? so other than just knowing its a LS1 block with original caps... theres nothing else i should try to find out about the block?... i assume ...because no one has said anything else about it... even with the questions in my previous posts...

92 Camaro

iTrader: (1)

meaning a lot more is involved with fuel injection...

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

yeah i figured that... ill do what i gotta do to reach my goal... and know that whatever i end up with ill be happy... what exactly is involved with more fuel injection???? b more specific.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Intake, throttle body, sensors, computer, wiring, fuel pump, and injectors.

Fuel injection roughly costs 2x as much as carb. For a well mannered, street engine that will make moderate power, but you want a good idle from, that will start every morning, etc - fuel injection is the solution.


For solid cam, rough idle, all out racing carb is cheaper and easier. On all my 350 based builds, I'd run camshafts under 230 degrees and superchargers. Those are 'street friendly EFI builds'.

On my 412, with a solid lifter cam and over 240 degrees of duration, EFI would just be a tuning nightmare and it's easier to just slap a 750-800cfm carb.


-- Joe

Atilla the Fun

for a simple start, a pure stock LS2 (which you can easily and cheaply duplicate with an LQ4) with headers and a tune will net you 460 crank HP, and depending on gearing, 25-30 mpg highway, and easily be emissions legal anywhere. Add a mild cam like Thunder Racing's TR220, and you'll be right at 500 crank HP. The carbureted option may be simpler, but the cost ends up just as high to get a new carbureted intake manifold, a new carburetor, a new low-pressure electric fuel pump that can feed 460+ hp, and the MSD ignition controller, or the GM timing cover that accepts a Forf 351W distributor, versus a mostly used parts EFI setup, and the carb ends up blatantly illegal, more challenging to drive in bad weather, and not quite as many MPG. Plus somewhat shorter engine life.

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

an FYI for u guys... dont think i mentioned this.... but it wont be an everyday driver.... it wont see any rain or snow.... at least not if i could help it... mostly summer,,some spring and or fall..... but definitely no winter... as far as idle... got 2 link of what kind of idle id like.... first ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIb-8...eature=related ) is a more consistent idle when compared to this one ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JKJXWO6yF8 ) .....(id like it a little more that the first but not as drastic as the second) but i think u guys should have a general understanding.... so as far as those idles what are they considered?(mild/choppy/rough) i dont get y? elaborate more y for the 350 it works but for ur 412 its a nightmare? [QUOTE]Forf 351W distributor[QUOTE]... y u pick that distributor? y illegal? dont care about bad weather.. will not see it... MPG...not to concerned... wont be runnin around to do groceries with it.... lastly... im goin to look and possibly pick up the LS! tomorrow... if anyone has any last minute suggestions or comments i should take into consideration...let me know.... guy called me today and said he has the caps... got like 50,000 on the block... should i know anything more...no one has said anything else.... should i possibly try to get anything else that might have been on that engine?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Right.

Or you can go with a normal SBC.

But then you wouldn't be cool.

I like normal SBC stuff. Cheaper, and works. LSx too exotic.

EFI is nice. Most of my combos have all been EFI. Been tuning for a long time too. But i'm smart enough to know the limitations of the P4 stuff. LSx too spendy to play with.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

[QUOTE=weaz4200;4217024]an FYI for u guys... dont think i mentioned this.... but it wont be an everyday driver.... it wont see any rain or snow.... at least not if i could help it... mostly summer,,some spring and or fall..... but definitely no winter... as far as idle... got 2 link of what kind of idle id like.... first ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIb-8...eature=related ) is a more consistent idle when compared to this one ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JKJXWO6yF8 ) .....(id like it a little more that the first but not as drastic as the second) but i think u guys should have a general understanding.... so as far as those idles what are they considered?(mild/choppy/rough) i dont get y? elaborate more y for the 350 it works but for ur 412 its a nightmare? [QUOTE]Forf 351W distributorThe first one is loping a lot because not enough advance at idle. Lt4 hotcam is a small emissions cam, the only way it lopes like that is due to a bad tune.

I won't try to run EFI on my 412 because I want to run a lot more cam than is within the reasonable tuning limits of a normal speed density computer. (such as the '730 ECM in your '92)

And while, you can turn off most of the learn flags, and run open loop, all you have achieved at that point is a really expensive carb.


In reality, an aftermarket MAF setup actually would be ideal, which is probably why the LSx cars run MAF. But, thats big money.

-- Joe

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

i dont care about bein cool... the only reason i keep flip floppin back and forth is cause everyone gives me a different answer... like i was under the impression that i could make a 383 with 500+ HP and have no issues (which i probably could)... but then i called summit to find out what the cam in my 305 was so i could sell it... and he also tells me that i should do LS1... cause with somethin about doin that much power on a 383 im push the block a lot more than if i switched over and did and LS1 which would be easily a lot more achievable... but can i get my car to run/sound like that but still be tuned right? what do u mean...a lot more cam than is within the reasonable tuning limits ... elaborate...meaning what? could i use a MAF setup on the camaro?...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You can make lots of power with an LS1. You can spend a lot of money too.

I have other hobbies (mortgage, horses, watercraft, firearms) that I spend my money on, so I can't dedicate 100k a year to the car. Especially with how many cars I build up and sell off.


Yes, a 230/230 on 112 or 110lsa, 4 degrees out will lope like that with the appropriate tune (around 22-24* at idle, 36 or so WOT in by 2500 rpm).

Meaning, on a factory Speed density ECM you are tuning by manifold pressure. On a factory cam, you might idle around 50kpa, cruise in the 30s or even lower vac, and be wot in the 90s.

Now with a performance cam, say a moderate one like a 224-230, even as high as a 236* (at .050") your vac is going to be around 10 or so hg, depending on lsa and other things but thereabouts, which is going to be 70s in terms of KPA. The resolution you have to tune from idle to WOT is very small, so you can't really dial in the fuel as well as you could with a smaller camshaft.

Now in regards to "learn mode", i.e, closed loop - letting the 02 make corrections. With a big cam is just a pain in the ***, and with some combinations not possible at all. Even tweaking 02 settings in the bin, you still end up with a car that the ECM screws more than corrects.


MAF calibrations measure airflow, sort of, and calculate it into numerous tables. In theory, a MAF system is much nicer for large cams because you can fuel it directly based on how much airflow is entering the engine.

Caveat: OEM thirdgen MAF implementations have an upper limit, and therefore on a performance application cannot measure ENOUGH airflow at wide open throttle on some builds, making it just as useless for fueling.


In theory, and as suggested, the LSx stuff is the best of both worlds. You have a fast capable computer, MAF sensors that can read higher volume of air, an improved design cylinder head with a narrow tall port (since we know airflow into cylinder heads on a SBC only use the top 2/3 of the port), and a intake manifold with the right runner length tuned for off idle to 5500rpm (perfect for a street car with 26" tires and 3.73s).


Unfortunately, dollar for dollar the LSx stuff is just expensive. Might as well pick up a 98+ 4th gen, and cam it, headers, etc. You'll end up saving money in the end and have a nicer car.

BTW - I like speed density tuning more than MAF, but again, I'm smart enough to know the limitations of such systems. For supercharged applications they are the best. For a big cube, naturally aspirated motor, with a wicked cam not soo good.

Ask some of the guys with the 427s. They run the injectors static from like 4000RPM up, and as the mixture leans out as RPM climbs it makes more power.

-- Joe

Atilla the Fun

I have no quarrel with Anesthes, but I hafta wonder how much experience Anesthes has with the LSX? Keeps redirecting you to the 383. A 383 will get you 500 hp, without risking the block. It's an easier build, to be sure. If you go the carbureted LSX route, you can go alot farther than 500 hp. If you want a distributor instead of the MSD box, the only distributor that anyone on earth has figured out how to adapt to the LSX is the Ford 351W distributor. The required timing cover is listed in the GM Performance Parts catalog, and right there, in GM's own listing, GM specifies the Ford 351W distributor. It's that or the MSD box or EFI. If you did an AFR-headed 383, and had COMP grind you a cam with the same specs as the TR220 I mentioned earlier, you would still be 50 horses behind the stock-headed LS2. If you spent the $1200 cost difference on having the LS2 heads ported by TEA, you'd be 100 horses over the 383.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm talking cost. LSx is fun, but out of budget. I've been doing this for a long time. I myself have gotten into traps of spending 3 times what something is worth because it's cool and exotic.

Do I know you, btw ?

Price out a 500hp LS2 build. From oil pan to air cleaner.

You know, there is a lot of ways of getting massive power out of parts, like stock LT1s and LSx motors. Stock parts scare me. I beat the snot out of mine at the track. I don't want to worry about a rod or crank breaking. So in all seriousness, price out a full forged rotating assembly, proper machine work, reworking heads if that's what you want to do, FAST or whatever LSx intake you choose, a used harnes + ecm, EFIlive software, injectors, fuel pump, etc etc etc.

It gets expensive.

I can't justify it.

But there is nothing wrong with it.


-- Joe

weaz4200

iTrader: (2)

elaborate.... say what... is that in english? 50kpa? lower vac (of what)? ... i dont get anything about what ur sayin in this statement other than a smaller cam is easier to work with... so with that statement are u refering to the cars without MAF like my camaro? still didnt answer if i could use a MAF setup on my camaro? (my car is bone dry.. not a part on it)... .... did not know that.... explain.... not gonna happen... i love third gen camaros... stock headed LS2 makes how much power? i did not know this S**T was so complicated.... im startin to think ill get everything else on the car done and when it comes around to doin the engine im just gonna sit there with a stupid look on my face.... when i read what u guys post i feel dumb.... but one thing is for certain... im thinkin that at least for now i shouldnt even do an LS1 (in the future yes)... especially since this is my first build.... maybe something less drastic is the way to go... and that starting off with a 383 would work a lot better until i learn a heck of a lot more and feel more comfortable.... i mean who doesnt want big HP and the nicest stuff... and i could just go one route... and that is to buy a complete engine and just pop it in... but i dont want that... this is meant to be a learning experience... thats why im doin this build n thats why i just started goin to school for it.... i know once i get all this stuff down... ill b good...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is why I recommended those three books. After finishing those books, which are only about 150 pages each, You will have a good idea of exactly what we're talking about.

Generally speaking: Bigger cams (more duration and overlap) produce LESS manifold vac. Computers use with a MAP sensor which is based on manifold pressure (vac), or MAF which is based on airflow. With a camshaft that produces LESS vac, you have less resolution so therefore a limited range of tune.

On a STOCK MAF configuration (again, thirdgen computers), you have a MAX amount of airflow you can measure.


You can use the stock ECM (MAP) in your camaro, which will work fine with a camshaft up to about 230 degrees, assuming you are an expert EFI tuner. Or you can switch to a MAF setup which will stop reading airflow after a number I cannot remember, OR you can upgrade to a later style MAF ECM (think vortec truck) which is very similar to the LSx stuff.

Your target goal is "500hp+". Those are the combos I build. If your target was 350hp, I wouldn't have brought any of this up.




Runner length has an effect on usable power range. The LS1 manifolds are a longer runner design, however the size and shape is harmonically tuned to basically off idle to 5500rpm operation. (they can pull higher, but this is their effective powerband).

Again, if you read those books you will understand what I'm getting at.

Nothing wrong with that. I used to love third gen firebirds.

I wonder how you would feel if we were debating camshaft profiles, or if we REALLY got into the efi tuning.

Read the books. Get an idea of what is involved, then you will have a reduced number of questions that pertain more towards your combo. As you read the books, take notes of key points.


I have nothing against the LS1, other than cost. If you know, money was no object, a 500hp LS1 will idle better, and get better fuel economy than a lot of SBC combinations (383, 355, 400, whatever). But you know, cost is a factor. I can't justify spending 15k under the hood on a $1500 car. If I was going to do that, I could buy a spiffy LSx fbody or corvette.

And that is something you have to consider too.

Ok. I'm gonna go play with my horses now. l8r.

-- Joe