runningagain

I have an 87 350 block which is a factory roller. It is possible to put a non roller cam in this block, right???

bart91406

I imagine so, but am not sure, but why would you want to?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The truck engines had flat tappet cams.

Need to change cam, lifters, timing set, pushrods.

89RsPower!

Yes, a lot of them came that way from the factory in trucks and such. To answer the above question for you, probably budget. All you need is a cam and lifter kit, the correct length pushrods, and the right timing set. You can simply remove all the roller parts (spider tray, cam retainer, timing set, lifters, cam, pushrods) and sell them to someone who wants to convert to roller.

bart91406

OK, so buy a flat tappet cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing chain, or just a roller cam, wouldnt the roller cam be cheaper? You also would not have to worry about flat cam lobes, after that happens the budget goes way out the window.

runningagain

The reason I am asking is because when I bought the truck it already had a flat tappet cam in it, I hope they were smart enough to change all the parts you listed, yes, a roller would be great but all is missing. If the pushrods were not replaced then would'nt that throw the valve timming way out? I am having bad idle problem, with running rich.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

'86? Didn't have roller lifters to start with.

Truck? Older than '96, didn't have roller lifters to start with.

jg04222

Actually I've read several times that they began the coversion to roller late in '86. How true this is I don't know, since most publications list parts from '87-up.

89RsPower!

they may have started castings in late 86 but they would have been for the 87 model year..

89RsPower!

it sounds like you think that's a large list of stuff... to do a roller cam swap correctly you'd buy all the same stuff except maybe the pushrods. Most people don't reuse worn timing sets, some people reuse used roller lifters.. still price a roller cam and price a flat tappet cam kit, its a pretty big difference in price. That's why most budget reman engines that are setup for roller cams normally come with flat tappets in them.

So am I reading this correct, you already have the engine togather and running and you're trying to diagnose an idle problem?

runningagain

Yes that is correct, I ran the numbers on the block and it is an 87-95 350 tbi truck block with the swirl port heads. Mild cam, runs like crap, I have searched and have had no luck, all new parts; dis, harness, hsr intake, disign III injectors, bbk 52mm tb, wires, plugs. I have no vacuum leak, the timming is at 6 with the connector unpluged, fuel pressure is 40 with vac connected, 45 disconnected, changed fuel and spark tables, nothing helped. I was told it may be internal, motor was rebuilt when I bought it but was it done right?

bart91406

If they did have the wrong pushrods in this engine it would not cause this kind of issue, the pushrods do not affect valve timing, just valvetrain geometry, wrong length pushrods will cause extreme valveguide wear.

I do not think you could even run a flat tappet cam with factory roller pushrods, they are 600 thousandths shorter, and would bottom out the rocker arm on the stud.

runningagain

I am just trying to figure this out, thanks for the info, I can say the pushrod lengh is correct and will call it a day.

89RsPower!

What exactly is it doing? Just really down on power or are there other symptoms?

runningagain

Bad idle, runs really rich, code 45, blm 98, stalling. I have been trying to figure this out for a long time, may be something internal. I bought a 79 truck with a running 350 in it for 150 bucks, so at least I will have something that runs in the mean time.

Toyota h8r

waaaaaaaaaait...WRONG!

ive got 3 PRE 96 s10's.....2 PRE 96 k series fullsize 350 trucks....i know for a fact they are all roller motors

stupid gm cheap intake gaskets crap out around 250,000 miles

ive seen a "few pre 96 gm 4.3/305/350's.....all roller if tbi(around 87/88 model depending on customer order if carb or tbi)

trucks in my familys pocession:
88 4.3L s10 blazer
89 4.3L s10(parts)
92 2.8L s10

89 305 c10....(lol talk about lo3 camaros being slow)
93 350 k10...not fast at all

runningagain

Like I said I ran the numbers and found that I have an 87-95 350 tbi long block, now I assume that these blocks can be both roller and non roller is that correct? Also I now have a 79 truck motor, should I rebuild the tbi block or the 79 block?

Toyota h8r

well the 79 is not a roller cast motor.....only thing different is the two casting bosses that your lifter "spider" bots to in the lifter valley.

Im running a 327 and flat tappet cam while sitting in a 91 trans am using a stock tpi setup and 730 ecm

rich at idle but doesnt die...

my cam =
214/224 .442/.465 112 LSA (summit 1103 cam IIRC)
327 bored to 333ci
line decked(zero deck)
mild 083 heads

89RsPower!

Obviously the roller block would be the better canidate, it has roller previsions and a 1 piece rear main seal. They were all cast with previsions for the roller cam, although some didn't have the holes drilled and tapped in the bosses. The 79 is obviously a flat tappet engine with a 2 piece rms. Are you sure it's a mechanical issue and not a tuning issue? Before you go rebuilding it you could always try slapping a carb intake, carb, and vac advance dist on it and see how it runs.

89RsPower!

and the bosses and holes for the cam retainer plate, the rear main seal configuration dipstick location, and probably a few other little things im forgetting.

Edit: should have 3 spider bosses as well in the valley.

89RsPower!

Never heard of a roller cam in truck block from the factory before 96.. odd.

Toyota h8r

omg...do i have to pull 5-6 intake manifolds off to show you?



but yah......last one i popped open was a buddies 88t tbi short block and had two spider bosses/1 piece RMS....and was from his tbi truck

14011148 is his block casting number and mortec,.com(chevy casting info website says.....
14011148...350...87-89.......Roller cam, one-piece rear seal

i guess mortec is full of $h*t

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

i heard that you cant run a pre 86 engine with tpi. something to do with the cam, etc., so what did you change to get yours to run with it?

Guest

Hell GM sold TPI's on cars prior to 86.

Sometimes I wonder where these stupid stories originate.

Toyota h8r

it has nothing to do with cam(stock of course)

perimeter vs centerbolt head is biggest difference

hell...my 327 is a 1968 block LMAO!

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

so if i understand it correctly, i could buy a 290 hp truck 350, put on heads that would fit my 91 tpi, and put in a hotter cam, and hook the computer up and i would be ready to roll?
that sounds too easy. and way to cheap. i think i like that.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

they come from shops that you try to buy engines from and they want to sell you something that costs twice as much.
i know that there are a lot of things i dont know, and i did not have the answer to this one.
i have been told i need a special cam to run with a computer. i have been told i need a special set of heads to run with the computer.
i was told i needed special headers to work with tpi rather than tbi.
when im told something like that i run home to momma - that would be 3rdgen.org and look for the answer.
but one thing i never do it buy it until i know.
i knew what i wanted when i got the tpi and the 2055 headers, they will work with my 305 and a 350. the same with the cat.
but the rest - hell im just plain ignorant about them.

Toyota h8r

well the computer thing comes to a point.....its more about LSA(lobe separation angle) Generally tpi run best 112 to 114 LSA....im going to a 110 LSa but it will require a LOT of tuning.....

TBI and TPI use same exhuast port configuation....so special headers are a joke.

special heads? to run 86 and newer tpi lower intake manifolds you need the newer heads often called a "centerbolt" head due to the valve cover bolts running in middle of valve cover. Reason these are different from newer heads is the inner most 2 intake bolts are at a 72* angle relative to the mating surface of the head. Where as a older tradional sbc head has a 90* intake bolt pattern for all the bolts.

but again about headers.....i never bought into the hype about hooker...im happy with my hedman shorties

Toyota h8r

well...depends on your cam selection...but yes you could do it.
you would have to find out your compression ratio vs stock...

if your looking for heads STAY AWAY from tbi heads...they are junk! 083 heads will be okay for stock to very mild

113 aluminum tpi vette heads are bump up from 083 L98 stock iron heads that came on all l98 350 tpi f-bodies

then again you could say screw all that like me and get world product heads/holley steath ram.110 LSA cam/3300 rpm stall and tune the crap out of it......and have wicked car

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

but are the 113 tpi vet heads able to bolt up to a 91 tpi. bolt patterns are so darn important. i understand the center bolt thing, but what about matching the 6 bolt pattern of the tpi to the heads. a 4 bolt head does not like a 6 bolt tpi and it does need a cross over.
but i copied and saved that little nugget you gave about cams and lobe separation. pure gold.
sorry i sort of hijacked part of the thread, im going to leave it alone. it is on point but the thread belongs to someone else.
thanks again.

Guest

The only thing you need to worry about with a TPI is what year and make the manifold is and what year your heads are because GM changed the bolt pattern (angle of the center 4 bolts from the intake to the head) in 1987 on everything but Corvettes. Even the stock cam could use a good tune so running a "non-computer" friendly cam doesnt mean a whole lot, ideally any of them should be tuned. Once you venture past about the 215 intake duration range the computer will begin to get unhappy but it'll still run ok. Get into the 225 range and you will have to tune it. Keeping the LSA wide like 112-116 and that will help, run a 108-110 LSA and the computer will not like it even if you spend a lot of time tuning.

There arent any 86 blocks out there with a roller cam or roller cam provisions. They are, however, a one off because 86 is the only year with a one piece rear main (all of them are, forget the nonsense Fel-Pro and others suggest that it was a mid year change it was not) but no roller cam. If you want to run a flat tappet in a roller cam block, its not a big deal just run the flat tappet timing set, lifters, and pushrods and you'll be fine. But if you have the factory roller cam parts, dont try to save a buck getting a cheaper cam. The roller cam has way too many benefits to ignore.

Guest

Depends. F-body baseplate? Not without modification. Vette baseplate? Yes. Aftermarket? Absolutely, all of them I have seen are machined to work on either style of head.

Something to keep in mind with the 113 heads is they have no heat crossover and therefore no EGR unless you are talking about a Corvette. They plumb in exhaust from the RH exhaust manifold into the back of the intake near the distributor to accomplish that task. Just a FYI.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

that is one of the things i have to keep track of. my 4 center bolts are at 72 degrees and not the 90 the other 8 are.
the tpi and the exhaust - i went with hooker and mag were easy calls. now im getting down to the short strokes. the dmv is all over us here in cal as of 1-1-09.
originally i wanted to get a 86 350 truck with 290 hp, change out the heads and cam put on my tpi and leave it alone for a few years.
but i might have to bore the heck out of my 305, put the cam and heads on it, and get as much as i can out of it just to keep the darn engine id numbers. the first few times they look at the new setup the smog place is going to be all over it and every number has to be perfect.
there is no doubt that the computer and i will have to do some dyno time to tune it up well.
you guys have been great. thanks for the education.
and h8r - i looked up what you are running, you definitely are a crazy man. that 3300 shift must be like the movie apollo 13, when the took off and he said there will be a little bump and everone literally jetted forward, stopped only by the belts. have you broken any seat backs hitting those shifts?
good night all - and thanks again.

Guest

Where are you getting smog that is going to check all the numbers? Most of them never look. If they do, go elsewhere.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

here in cal they just set up a new set of cat regs. since my car will have a complete new exhaust, stock to 2055 into 3 inch y and then 3 in approved cat and into a mag 3 inch stainless cat back, its goiong to stand out. not to mention the change in tbi to tpi. for the next year or two they are going to check everything.
did you know that the new car regs here require that the numbers on the new cats be readable from 5 feet away, no small numbers, we dont want or chp boys abnd girls getting their uniforms dirty.
new ceramic chrone coating on the tpi, headers and y pipe into stainless - they will notice its not stock. and everything has CARB numbers on it too. they will be checking like crazy for the next 2 years, and they are thinking of going to annual inspections for older cars - that means us.

Guest

I live in Cali. There are no new laws in place that will make them look any more than they did before. I had a check done just a few days ago and the most the guy did under the hood was smash my charcoal canister line shut for the evap test. And that was test only.

89RsPower!

The first 2 years of tpi, 85 and 86 were both flat tappet cammed engines.. as far as the angle of the center 4 bolt holes on the manifold, don't worry about it, anybody with a slight bit of common sense and a drill can fix that, either manifold will fit either, you just need to simply elongate the center bolt holes to accomodate what heads your using depending on which of the 2 style manifolds you have.

Edit: and above he ment to say 87 and newer had center bolt heads.

runningagain

That's alot of great info. I will keep the 87 block put a carb on it to see what happens. When I figure it out I will put the hsr back on and make it a roller, I was not sure about the block being roller but it has the bolt holes in the valley for the spider so I just assumed. I have a 730 ecm getting an nvsram installed so I would like to tune easier than the pull the chip method. As far as lobe sep, I have 114 right now but how hard is it to tune 110-108-106, I have played around with the tune so I am learning, just don't want to get in over my head. I looked through chet herbert site, they have rooler cams for 169.00, are these cams good?http://store.chetherbert.com/

89RsPower!

Yes please. Never saw a roller cam installed in a truck that old, sure they ALL have the bosses for a roller cam.. The fact that it only had 2 is very odd though, must be a casting flaw as it should have had 3..that doesn't mean anything though.. Not saying you're not right, I was simply saying I've never seen one in person.. You really don't have to go tearing them down on my account tho... unless they need gaskets then feel free

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

hey 89, is that the main reason you cant put tpi on an older 290 hp 350 1985 type? that you need a newer roller cam in it for the tpi to work and to get that you should have 3 bosses on the roller cam.
i found this article on retro fitting a hydro roller cam in a pre 87 sbc. http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...cam/index.html
is this what you are talking about?

Toyota h8r

ive been thinking about why your SD setup is running really rich...

ive got some questions:
-how long is your line from intake plenum to MAP sensor?
-what tune are you using?
-what injectors?
-AFPR?(adjustable fuel pressure regulator) aftermarket or stock...maybe bad allowing too much fuel pressure at idle

Bad regulator caused friends 95 trans am to idle like poop and not run good until 3000 rpm

id figure out why the motor is getting too much fuel before hacking your truck and back sliding in technology to carb

89RsPower!

I don't recall saying anything like that... of course you can put a tpi setup on an older small block.. I stated above that in 1985 and 1986 tpi came from the factory on cars with flat tappet cams... the bosses arn't on the cam at all, they are cast into the block.. they are nessicary to hold a spider tray to use a factory roller cam. There are kits to retrofit a roller cam into a flat tappet engine though (although no where in any of my previous posts did I mention that..), they were out long before factory rollers existed in fact.. TPI doesn't require a roller cam.. or any special heads.. not sure where you're getting this stuff from..

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The block casting # does NOT tell you if you have a roller lifter cam!!!!!

They used the same blocks in passenger cars and trucks. I have a 638 casting block sitting in the storage unit that came out of a '92 Suburban - it has flat tappets in it from the factory. I have a 638 casting block in the Camaro - it started out life as a ZZ3 crate engine.

Both have the EXACT SAME provisions for roller lifters & cam. One had roller lifters, the other one did not.

Mortec gives you basic information, but it canNOT tell you from the casting # if you have a roller lifter cam!!!!!

There are a few reports of roller lifters in truck engines. The explanation for that is either the factory was sort of flat tappet engines one day and just put in some roller lifter engines instead, or the engine was replaced under warranty and they put in a roller lifter short or long block.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

i did not say you said it. this is supposed to be an informative board, where we all learn from each other. actually in 86 and below there appears to be a problem with the cams and if they like or dont like the computer as well as the tpi. if you looked at the article I posted a link to - they said exactly the same thing.
you have to lighten up dude, you are not a school teacher and this is not a 5th grade english class.
take a break, this is supposed to be fun.
i think its fun, do you think its fun?
i love learning about my cars as well as working on them.
lots of people have been told different things and this is one place where we can learn what is true and what is bs. its not personal.
57kid is right on too.

89RsPower!

Didn't mean to offend you, sorry if I did. I was just trying to inform you that if you read that somewhere it is in fact wrong. You can run TPI with a flat tappet cam without any issues what so ever provided it's a suitable cam. I'm confused by your statement that in 86 or below that there was a problem with the cams.. maybe you can elaborate? It wouldn't make a difference if it was a flat tappet cam or a roller cam, either would work just fine provided they were suitable to tpi (meaning LSA, lift, duration). Many corvette and f-bodies left the factory that way... I was replying to the question you asked "is that the main reason you cant put tpi on an older 290 hp 350 1985 type".. none of those things matter, horsepower rating of the origional engine makes no difference, nor does casting year etc.

Guest

Nonsense.

sab

how do u know what lenght of pushrods to use with the non roller cam? ive got a 88 305 and the parts stores list only the rods for the roller lifters?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Ask for '86-earlier V8 pushrods. Or, '87-'95 truck V8 pushrods.

89RsPower!

That's the easiest way to get em from your average parts store guy that only knows what the computer tells em. FWIW factory flat tappet lifters used 7.800" pushrods, factory rollers used 7.200" IIRC

runningagain

To answer toyotah8r, the vacuum line going to the map is aprox 6inches long, aujp bin, disign III 22lb from fic, afpr from holley, got it with the hsr intake with fuel rail kit. I have lowered the pressure at one time but was told those injectors are tested at 43psi. I have the afpr turned in as far as I can turn it and it is only at 40, 45 with the vac disconnected. It seems to be working fine, how do I know if it is bad? I have had bad luck with just thowing parts at it so I have to be sure.