Nater36

my friend has a 99 T/A ls1 6spd.. bbk intake, HD clutch, subframe connectors, strut tower brace, bilstein shocks, full 3" exhaust minus headers, and a lid.
I raced him w/ my lb9 5-speed. 1.6 rockers, ported plenum, muffler delete, a/c delete, screens removed, 3:73 gears, aluminumn driveshaft, and 1000 mile HD clutch. I did better than i thought as i raced him from the forbidden territory of an ls1(a roll).. at 40. revving my car to 6k b4 shifting and yes it was still making enough power for that shift. He pulled 4 lengths on me by the time i hit 100.

I am now pulling my 305. buying a reman 350 stock specs/heads and adding a holley stealth ram, 1.6 rockers, and keeping the T-5.

My question is, which cam will i need to keep this puppy at a shiftpoint of 6k and have plenty of power 2 take his LS1 on the highway. Lift will not be a prob with stock heads 2 an extent as i am going 2 pin the studs.

while the shop pins the studs I want them ported obviously. How much should i have them ported? or do they just go so far anyway?

Have headers already.
I bought a set of 22/lb hr fuel injectors unused.
Getting tuning equipment as well.

hopefully that will be enough to beat him even when he gets a tune???
If not, wut else would be a good idea to get?

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

you need a high compression motor like 10.5 to 1

a triple spark ign system

lots of airflow

and then you might spank that ls1

84Z28406

Last I checked you could much quicker than an LS1 on a stock HEI, triple spark ignition is not mandatory. Keep in mind the LS1s were only rated at just over 300 horsepower. A decent set of heads, and intake and a cam, full exhaust system, and you'll be fine.

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

compession and three sparks intead of one= power

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

GM greatly under rated the LS1 motors... they say 300hp and 330hp for the ram air firebirds... those numbers where way higher in stock form. most made at least 340hp with no mods.

where the LS1 gets us is at the end... we can beat them at first bc we have the tq down low to get our ars out of the hole. but our power drops off substantially in the upper RPM ranges which where the LS1 lives! and is why he pulled away from u at 100.

u say your motor pulled to 6k.... im gona tell u that u must have fairy dust in ur TPI runners cuz most fully ported I MEAN EXTREME ported TPIs dont rev that high. u would need ported plenum, larger and ported runners and a fully ported aftermarket larger base etc... which u dont have. what u felt was the Flat tq/hp of the TPI when u get above 4200-4800rpms.

if u really want to beat him. stock heads arent gona cut it. even ported u cant make more than 300-325hp with them. i would say sell them and get a pair of vortecs... Scoggin dickey sells modified ones for lift up to .600 lift for like 400 each. and they flow enough for over alil over 400hp. match that with the GM hot cam. 218/228 .525/.525 lift roller cam and the vortec HSR and u have 400hp probably. and u will be able to rev to 6k with no prob and still be making power. u'll stomp all over him. dnt worry about the short block the stock 350tpi block will be ok at 400hp. best part is u dont need 10:1 compression.

9.3 to 9.8 will be fine with a HEI distributer. regular plugs but i would upgrade the coil to a high output and replace the stock control modual with an aftermarket ACCEL or MSD. it will give u a hotter spark and higher RPM firing for ur 6K blasts. and should only cost 80$ to upgrade ur HEI.

vortec heads=800$ from scoggin dickey
GM hot cam= 175$ from scoggin dickey
HSR vortec style= 500$ complete, HSR/fuel rails/AJFPR=summit
throw on sum 1.6RR=140$
oh and u'll need 24lb injectors.=150$

and walla! u got 400hp easily. the stock L98 heads arent gona flow enough no matter how much work u put into them, esp the money u would put into porting them wont give u the same flow as stock vortecs out of the box. selling them will help with costs. same wiht selling the cam if u want to. and either return/sell the injectors. u will not beat him with ported L98 heads and a HSR. ported heads/HSR is good for about 260rwhp.

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

I spanked a few ls1 cars at the track last year. My first advice would be to not go the HSR route, go with a carburetor, you'll make more power and save money. Chances are you'll never be able to find someone to program the prom right for you. I know I had the HSR, I shaved a full second off going to a carburetor. I've run a best of 8.01 in the 1/8th and with a new carburetor this year will be in the 7s. Here is my setup, this motor can be built on a budget:

355 sbc 10.1:1 compression I used speed pro flat top hypereutectic pistons, moly rings (ring end gap set to .015") and my main clearances were set to .025"-.027".

I used vortec heads machined to handle up to .550" lift. I used 1.6 roller rockers as well.

Camshaft was a GMPP LT4 HOT CAM, .525/.525 lift

Intake, edelbrock performer RPM with a holley 650 double pumper carburetor

Exhaust system I used 1 3/4" SLP shorty headers to a 3" magnaflow SS exhaust, no cats.

I used a proform HEI distributor with 8.5mm MSD wires and NGK TR55 spark plugs gapped to .040"


This should put you in the 375-400hp range

Nater36

I dont have a 350 which is why its not gonna be so cheap. just the higher output 305 tpi. Also you are correct, i didnt mean PULLING HARD to 6k, by no means. But a nice acceleration that id lose time if i would shift early.
I already have the msd coil pack, msd distributer, and hei.
If you know of a better block to get other than the reman l98 w/ stock heads let me know. But remember, thats a $1500 buy.

Rayzor- I hate carbs, i understand your concept tho. The HSR is worthy of a 400hp motor to the wheels. Im not trying 2 build a fire breathing monster lol. Id be satisfied with 350 at the wheels. More is better tho

I have about 3k to spend after i buy the HSR. I really need some advice.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No, it doesn't. The multiple sparks only happen at low RPMs. Get above 3000 or so, and you're back to one.

FWIW, my lowly Berlinetta #1 outruns stock '02 LS1 autos at the track. But, stick cars will outrun me, and any of them will pass more gas stations than I do.

84Z28406

Exactly, once you get into the rpm range where you tend to be at through the run, you're down to one spark. Spend your money elsewhere and gain some power instead.

Nater36

what do u guys think abou these heads? will they work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy...Q5fAccessories

Air_Adam

Those heads are made in china, and have some serious quality control issues. There are lots of threads about that on those heads.

The best heads you could use on a 305 would be the TrickFlow "small bore" aluminum heads. 56cc chambers, 175cc ports, 194/1.50 valves, and actually flow very well - in the 240/190cfm range IIRC. Stock heads could be ported to flow the same though, and the 113 aluminum Corvette/ZZ4 heads could too.

Honestly, the best way to go with a 5.0 TPI would be to supercharge it. A friend of mine has a ProCharger setup on a totally stock '85 5.0 TPI Trans Am, running around 10psi, and its very fast. Low low 13s on an otherwise stock engine and trans. Stock heads, cam, exhaust manifolds/pipes/muffler, stock converter.

Seeing as you already have headers and bigger injectors, those would only make it even faster than my friends car.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

that guy might have shifted to 6 grand because he had the smaller 305 which doesnt need nearly as much air as a 350.... but i dont think shifting that high was helping him though... i know i couldn't get that high with stock parts on my 350.. more like 4800-5000 at best... but i can now..... mine really does pull to 6 grand..... the runners are just about fully siamesed from top to bottom i can fit my whole hand down them.. i dont think you can get any further as far as porting these....its almost like there is no metal dividing the runners. the edelbrock intake is ported as well and i have that slp cold air intake... the plenum is fully ported and siamesed where the runners meet... i can stick my hand through the plenum as well... the egr walls are gone and the front has been ported to 58mm throttle body.... i also had cam, headers, exhaust, AFPR and a bunch of other things to help it reach to 6 grand.... im tearing my engine down this month for my new build so i can show everyone pics of my intake.... its truly amazing how well its ported...

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

Uh,oh... The 5 speed will be your weak link. Plan on replacing it soon.

If you want to beat your friend, heres how I would do it; 383 stroker with ported heads, siamesed slp runners, ported plenum, ported base, 30# injectors.

The best "Budget" block imo, is the 88-94 chevy truck 350.
It is a 4 bolt main, with 1 pc rear main seal and has the bosses for roller cam. And they are plentiful and cheap!
Good luck!

Nater36

Im going with an HSR no matter what. Sets me up in my desired rpm
The T-5 will be beefed up or replaced eventually.
Also im sticking with the 2 bolt main l98 design shortblock.

but do u really think ill need 30# injectors? seems farfetched but thats why im askin!

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

I used 30# injectors on my RS when it had the 383 and they were perfect. Why use the l98 block? The truck motor is essentially the same and has 4 bolt mains. (Weighs 6 pounds less too) My current build is a twin turbocharged 85 T/A and I am using this block. My engine builder says he has done several 900+ hp builds using this block and hasnt had any failures. My build is around 700hp so I should be fine.

Nater36

longblocks require different heads dont they? i dont think they ahve an HSR for long blocks if thats the case.

Nice setup btw

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

Thank you! a longblock just refers to weather heads are included. A shortblock means: Block, crank,rods,pistons, cam, timing gear. A long block has all of those things plus heads. There is really no external difference between the 2bolt main blocks and the 4 bolt main truck blocks. L98 only refers to the fuel injection setup (TPI) on the 350 found in camaro/firebird models. The TPI setup will bolt right up to the truck block just fine.

Nater36

oo, i guess ill have to look for one of those then. im guessin a new set of engine mounts? wut type?

SheldonZ28

iTrader: (1)

Also keep in mind, ive seen afew LS1/T56 pull out sell for less then $2500 in the last few weeks.

Maybe fight fire with fire?

I wanted to beat LS1's. Then i just bought one. Then i wanted to beat C5 Z06's, so i built an LS6. Then i wanted to play with C6 Z06's, so i built a H/C/I LS2. Now im getting there, and gotta put my car on a diet, so it can actually do it.

LS9 is still a bit out of reach

But a Procharger would get me there?

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

Nope. stock style mounts will be just fine. If you really want to upgrade, go with some nice prothane mounts. Not really necessasary, though.

Nater36

Sheldon- id like to keep oldschool with oldschool if u know wut i mean. plus swapping all that stuff in there on my own wouldnt exactly be the easiest thing to do haha. gotta put those things in from the bottom and all the required parts just wouldnt be worth it to me..





ok, so wuts the difference between four bolt and two bolt then? I wouldnt have to change a thing? Even if i decided to get an old 4bolt main out of something from teh 70's?

Nater36

btw i just read up on those heads that are supposably "junk"... the only problems ive come across are accessory holes a little off, or its difficult 2 get the socket on the head bolts w/o a small amount of machining... nothing serious. they are the best bang for the buck heads ive come across, and the ppl i see running them are in the mid 11's so to beat an ls1, thats more than sufficient, and at 600 bux, im tackling that deal .

Air_Adam

Why not do an LT1 swap? The LT1 is a FANTASTIC platform that can make alot of power. You can buy the aluminum-head LT1s all day long for 2/3 or less than the cost of an LS1. It also doesn't bring with it the swap costs of the LS1, because its still "mostly" a regular SBC.

No need for a special K-member, oil pan, headers, clutch and trans, etc etc... all the small block stuff will work, and you already have it. Though I would upgrade the T5 to a T56. Even the stock LT1 intake is awesome - breathes better than the HSR and HUGE amounts better than TPI.

There are lots of LT1s out there that can more than hang with the LS1 crowd.

Just a basic 5.7L LT1 out of an F-car or Corvette, with a good exhaust system, CAI, and a cam something similar in size to the LT4 hotcam would easily hang with (even outrun more often than not) stockish LS1 cars.

Nater36

lt1 intake is uglier than the new bbk intake!!

383roller

if you cant beat 'em join 'em

1slobird91

iTrader: (2)

a 150 shot of nitrous will take care of that real quick..believe me lol...i had the car in my sig with a 150 shot and now im back in an LS1 car..

Air_Adam

Not really that different from the HSR, just shorter... and makes more power.

SpitotRs305

i must have missed the point when it was decided and intake had to look pretty ontop of making gobbs of power... lt1 intakes are well worth it...

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

Lt-1 intakes arent too bad if they are polished up a little. Cheap too. I have a friend that sells them complete for 250.oo. A good head shop can take your stock heads and work the hell out of them. If you arent going to spend a whole lot on heads, then have some custom work done to the heads you already have.

The modern truck 4 bolt block is supposed to be a lot tougher than the old 2 piece rear main seal. Easier to find too.

STRIKER911

iTrader: (1)

Difference is that you have four bolt caps holding the crank in the block. If you like to rev your motor, & we know you do, then get the four bolt main! LOL. If not you take the chance of loosing all your hard work. "Work smart not hard". Why do the build twice? Go to the junk yard, & get a 6.0 out of a o5 truck like carcraft did. Look it up, their is a video of it. They paid $1200. for it. bought it from http://www.barbersauto.net/
Good luck on beating your friends ls1. With the 6.0 all you need is a cam and you got power dude.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

The 6.0 is a a LS motor. (Actually, LQ-9). It will require a new or modified k-member. Plus a whole lot more. The LQ block is what I am using for my motor. I love the LS series motors, but it was a lot of work! (Lot of money, too) My engine management system alone, cost me over 3000.00. (FAST)

Nater36

i think i found a place to build my engine.. i would have the heads/cam shipped to them, they will use either the 2 or 4 bolt main i havnt decided yet. but i will be getting a quote tomorrow to see wut you guys think.


The company is five star engines... they can be found at www.fivestarengines.com .. there site is still under construction tho.

Nater36

also, for those of you recommending an lt1 intake. here is wut i found on this site...


"Now, the HSR is a perfect platform for building power over the lt1. First, let me give you some specs on the stock lt1 intake manifold. The runners flow about 225cfm. Thats sufficient for stock heads that flow 200-205cfm. But if you buy after market or get work done by LE or AI, your intake becomes a problem. Now, will you see great gains even with a stock intake? Of course, but your not optimizing the set-ups potential. So you send your intake away to get ported. Good right, it will flow more. LP ported one out for me years ago. Ported the plenum, the works. It flowed 265cfm. Good improvement. But, since it was pratically gutted to get the flow, I lost air velocity and noticed a loss in low-mid range torque. Sure I had better top end power but look what I had to sacrafice. How often am I above 6500rpm? And even with the plenum ported, it was still nothing more than a tunnel with small stubby runners.

On to the HSR. It flows, out of the box, 275cfm naturally with no porting. Thats just part of it. The runners are longer, they will give even a stock engine great increases in usable torque. And since it flows the way it does with a shoe box for a plenum, You wont be missing out on power. But the problem with it since its inception is it doesnt fit. People have tried but Holley designed this HSR better then some think. The runners change shape from top to bottom. That increases air velocity which has the potential for tire smoking low and mid range power/torque."

Air_Adam

How exactly are they testing air flow on these intakes? Just a straight flow number on each port isn't going to tell you anything about an intake manifold, like it might on a cylinder head, as its not under the same working conditions as the port on a cylinder head. I've seen flow tests for an LT4 intake that range from 220cfm to over 380cfm - on the same manifold, same port, just tested differently. None of those tests however, recreated the actual working conditions of an intake manifold, so the numbers were meaningless.

Just as a side note - there are plenty of LT1 guys making over 400rwhp with only a gasket-matched stock LT1 intake manifold. No meaningful porting of any kind.

Nater36

i dont care about flow numbers.. just the fact that they said lt1 intake ported doesnt keep velocity. also, lt1 makes power in HIGH rpms(6500) or so, with the loss of low-mid significantly... idk, i just studied up the hsr and I liked its capabilities. orr has a nice setup with an hsr, or atleast did and i beleive he peaked hp around 5500 ? thats exactly where i want 2 peak. plus i just like the looks of the hsr over the lt1 intake, and i dont mean just the box, i mean the whole base up.


I just purchased the GP1 package and pending the APU1 package from moates.net. good/bad? everything ill need?

SpitotRs305

funny my LT1 only pulls to about 5800 and has a buttload of TQ down low...
dont know of to many stock LTs that have seen 6500 regularly and survived...

Nater36

im not talking stock lts, im talking about the intake in general PORTED.


and i didnt mean it peaks at 6500 lol... just meant its boundaries are overset for my application

SpitotRs305

actually that little reprint of yours nate was a copy and paste from a LT1 forum

and if you had read the entire thing they are talking about modding the HSR to make it better than the LT

also those flow numbers are incorrect and improbable you should read the complete thread
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...t1-intake.html

you would be porting the HSR for some time to make a significant improvement over the LT

STRIKER911

iTrader: (1)

If you put a 6.0 in a 3rd gen & it cost 3k just for the brains, then thats nothing like I had in mind. The guys at horse power stated that it was to be done for 2k flat in a 4th gen. That may also be why I can never find part two of their build? I would like to do this to my car but since it came with a fresh rebuilt stock lo3 I have time to plan since that will be the last part of the build.

Nater; I can see that I can not steer you away for good from a 2 bolt main. Honest from what I know, is that it is best to learn from others that screw up; not myself. I have also heard that a 2 bolt main is only good for about 400 hp for daily driving. Anyone else is not pushing this fact so maybe if I ask them to they will? I dont know it all, but its better to bring a granade to a gun fight, then to bring a knife to a gun fight. Right? Someone else that knows better then I do, let us know on this please.

Nater36

SpitotRs305-so your saying the lt1 intake would be better power versus the hsr for my particular setup? Which i have decided on those heads posted earlier, a comp cams 292xfi, and will now be going with 383 cubes.





Striker- i thought there were plenty of ppl on here with over 400hp that had 2bolt mains? ... if this is true tho, then i will undoubtedly go with a 4bolt.




does anyone think ill need forged internals?

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

There are guys with a 2 bolt main block going over 400 hp, but most of them have "Splayed mains". Thats a conversion to 4 bolt. Expensive too! the reason for this is hp. I used to run a dyno locally and have seen many come apart. Is this because its a 2 bolt main? Maybe. I havent seen too many 2 bolt go over 500 hp, I can tell you that. 2 bolts arent too bad. But IMO, the 4 bolts are better. (And as I said before, you can get them cheaper at a junkyard, too.)

STRIKER911

iTrader: (1)

That's the info we where looking for. Thanks bro.

brodysZ28

Say goodbye to that T5 if you plan on making anywhere over 300 hp and driving the car like its meant to be driven.

Nater36

brody- ill be rebuilding the t-5 with stronger internals eventually. unless purchasing a tko-500 would be wiser.

brodysZ28

from what I have heard the tko would be the way to go.

Nater36

yea i JUST read up on that. lucky if i can swap it for 2500. kinda steep so it would be another couple months after the engine. i guess ill just have to feather the throttle!!

brodysZ28

yup, easier said than done though, haha atleast for me...

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

ok lets clear up some of this jibberish!!!!!

#1 the LT1 intake is different compared to the HSR, the LT1 has something like 3" of runners compared to the longer runner HSR(something like 6-8") carb intakes have 6-8" runners and SBC heads have 6" of intake runners. which puts carb setups at around 12" total runner length to the back of the intake valve. HSR puts it at roughly the same. TPI has something insane like 20 or more inches total length. this means the LT1 has shorter runners than a carb setup and alot shorter runners than the TPI. this means its flows in the Higher rpms... and it was how Gm made 275hp over the 245hp of the stock 350 TPI in 92. its also how they got peak hp in the 6000 rpm range vs the TPIs 4200-4800rpm range. prob with the LT1 is that it has horrible tq capabilities. the very short runner design does not allow tq to be created since longer runners are needed to create high velocities at lower RPMS... which is where tq comes from. stock for stock a TPI will take an LT1 off the line and for alil while untill the LT1 gets into its tq/hp band... which is obviously higher than the TPI. the HSR is holleys answer to the TPI and Lt1. the HSR has runner lengths of a carb setup which is between the TPI and the LT1. longer runners than the LT1 allows the HSR to make more tq and more HP down lower than the LT! but rev higher and support higher RPM hp than the TPI. a stock 92L98 with an HSR and a stock Lt1 if they where to race the HSR would come out as the winner. now the LT1 bc of its shorter runners will rev higher than the HSR and have a higher powerband. the LT1 and miniram are like twin brothers. HSR and LT1/mini ram are used for 2 diff types of motors.

LT1/mini ram=shortrunner high RPM hp and tq
HSR/carb= mid runner length more usefull RPM hp/tq (gets best of both worlds)
TPI= long runner length means low rpm hp/tq

the HSR flows more right out of the box from what ive heard as well. the LT1 isnt a bad intake but i heard the ports are too small. companys have fixed this and made the Lt4 and edelbrock made the LT1/Lt4 air gap (slightly larger runners and longer to be more like the HSR)

even the new LS1 motors dont have as short runners as the LT1... the LS1s have intake runner lengths close to that of the HSR/Carb setups.

i have to agree with NATER on this one. the HSR is a better intake out of the box. allows more HP/tq off the line than the Lt1 and then allows enough RPM breathing up top to still make power. ive seen a many HSRs beat LT1s on stock motors.

NOW WE GO ONTO THE ENGINE BLOCK

2bolt blocks are fine up to and over 500hp if you dont rev the thing above 6000rpms. then the caps like to walk and u will destroy the motor. there is no point in a 4bolt over a 2bolt if u keep the RPMS below 6000rpms. the 4bolt although stronger to a point, the 4 bolt has its weak points. the main cap bolts on a 4bolt (the outer bolts) are tapped into a thinner/narrower part of the block. this area isnt reinforced enough and there isnt sufficent material to make this as strong as it should be. these bolts are often the ones to fail on a 4bolt. which is why the 2bolt is often a better choice. the best choice is to get a 2bolt block and get it splayed to 4 bolts. splaying a 2 bolt makes it stronger than a 4 bolt since the angle of the splayed caps is at an angle and not straight down like the 4 bolt. this takes it out of the place that is weak and has less material like the 4bolt. the angle of splayed caps also basically eliminates cap walk allowing more power and more RPMS to be achieved out of the same block. Ever notice how LS1 or LS type blocks have 4 bolts and then the side bolts on the main caps? same reason.

as stated many ppl make over 400hp with a 2bolt. and many make over 500. its all in how the engine is built, clearances, the fastners used. and keeping the motor below 6000rpms. i will be one of these. im gona be using my stock 87 L98 motor with ARP high strength main bolts etc with a 480hp HSR 383. and my peak power will be 5500rpms. also truck blocks are not the same as car blocks... they can be used but theres something about truck blocks that more performance builders dont like to use them. same thing about truck 12bolts vs car 12bolts. the car 12bolts are stronger.

also as stated the T5 is poo... dont even bother with it. it cant be built up to handle more than 300hp. your best bet is gona be to go with aftermarket replacements like the TKOs etc. the T5s are really weak and they couldnt even live behind the 350TPI's cuz the tq would destroy them, hence why Gm never stuck them behind them.

overall i think ur gona like the HSR. should be more fun to drive on the street over a LT1 setup and u wont have to port it to beat the Lt1. the HSR will beat the Lt1. comp cams did a test with an TPI, HSR, LT1 and Miniram... the HSR won out of all of them. more HP and tq.

Nater36

customblackbird- that is some great info! this thread is really steering me in the right direction!
Splayed mains, an HSR, and a TKO500 are decided for.


I guess really the only question is... wut compression ratio should i aim for? those heads are 64cc Aluminum.

SpitotRs305

okay here is DD2003 on your engine... with the XFI 292 10.5CR which is about as low as you should go... and AFRs 210 with the smaller valves found in those ebay heads with a LT1 style intake flowing 900CFM...

but we arent talking about a stocker he wants a 383 with a xfi292 now with splayed mains and 3.73 gears atleast... big difference... which will pull the LT1 down into more usable power than what it is used to on its little brother 350....

but i supose we arent really compairing apples to apples here as they are really 2 different types of intakes