stealth908

iTrader: (2)

I bought an 89 Formula 350 that has been sitting for 5 years. What is the best way to get the old gas out? Can I disconnect the fuel line under the car and let the fuel pump pump it out? Should I siphon it out?

TexasSilhouette

iTrader: (4)

Connect power to the fuel pump prime connector and run it out. I'd run some clean gas after it to flush things a bit. the varnish buildup in that tank may become problematic though.

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Great, where is this connector? When I turn the key to "run" not cranking shouldn't the pump prime? My experience is that it should prime for 2 seconds, then shut off. Then run continuously once the engine starts. Right?

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

If you want to use the pump you will need to hot wire the pump, but be very careful can burn it up quick......

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Can you tell me where the connector is and what pin?
Travis

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

fwd of the fuel tank ( on the hump the back seat rests on ) you will see a wire connector . center pin/connector is fuel pump power . pass. side pin/connector is ground . fwd of that on drivers side you will see fuel filter ( you need to change it anyway ) , remove fuel filter . use lot's of wd-40 or your favorite , 20 yrs of rust is not your friend . be careful not to mess up lines . pour a gallon or 2 of pd-680 or mineral spirits in tank . slip hose over line from tank to filter and into container . power pins on connector , if pump still works fuel/solvent should come out hose . repeat as you feel needed . if you re-use solvent filter it with paper towels or coffee filters . keep it safe . no battery/power source close , no sparks , no explosion/fire . worked for me , had about 10 feet of wires run to battery . use battery gnd. . good luck , be safe . TAKE ALL SAFETY PRECAUTIONS , THIS DID WORK FOR ME BUT DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK .

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

I agree

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Ok, I'll do that tonight. By the way, can anyone tell me which relay is the one for the fuel pump? I see 3 between the brake booster, and the drivers fender. Is that where it is? Also, I can't find the pump prime connector, so I think I'll just check the pump at the connector by the tank. Thanks guys.
Travis

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Well, I tried hot wiring the pump. It didn't come on. So, it must be bad. I also tested the voltage coming out of the connector with the key on. My volt meter is broken so I used a light tester, and the light bulb barely glows orange. It stayed barely glowing for several minutes too. Is the relay probably bad? WHere is it? Any other suggestions?

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

I found a great article by BigLou on AustinThirdGen.org.

I found the fuel pump relay. I tested power and ground.
1. I have 12+ key on at the orange wire.
2. I have 2 seconds of ECM 12+ at the green wire (that's a very good thing).
3. Ground is good.
4. I jumper the orange wire over to the grey wire and the pump does not come on.

Since I didn't get any (or barely any) power from the connector under the car, I think the relay is bad. I'll buy another one or two today. And a fuel pump too.

Tonight I will shoot the wires from the relay connector to the plug under the car, and ohm check the fuel pump connector.

Thanks to BigLou where ever you are.

CamaroRider

Be careful making the (possibly incorrect) assumption that because the ground is good at the relay that it means the ground is good at the fuel pump or the connector to the fuel pump. Your fuel pump might be good. The ground used by the fuel pump end of the circuit might be bad. So do not open your new fuel pump package until you check out everything pertaining to your old pump.

I believe the ground wire for the fuel pump might exit the pump, travel up through the fuel sending unit, through the connector outside the fuel tank and behind the back seat sheet metal, through the back seat sheet metal, and down to a bolt on the floor (chassis) under the back seat on the driver's side, through the chassis to grounding straps, grounding straps to a ground cable, ground cable to terminal connection, terminal connection to the negative battery POST. All of those connections need to be inspected to be confident your ground will be truly good at the pump end.

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the reply. I just rechecked everything again, and I am getting all the right voltage and readings that I should all through the electrical system. I was shooting the wrong pin.

I was told to apply 12+ to the center pin, but that is the pin for fuel gauge (pink). The driver side pin (tan) is for 12+ to run the pump. The pass. side pin is ground (black/white). I tested those wires with everything connected and the test light shows 12+ for 2 seconds key on, then 12+ constant while cranking. I probed the wires as far back on the harness as I could go. Right before the harness goes into the tank.

I'm pretty sure the pump is bad, BUT I'm not going to say I have narrowed the problem to the pump. I have done that before only to be disappointed when my "fix" was not a "fix".

I know the relay is good. The wiring to the tank is good, so the problem must be in the tank. I will fix it one way or another. I LOVE THIS STUFF! This is so much fun for me. I love buying broken stuff and making it work again.

What I don't like is the WASPS!!! I have found 3 wasps nests so far. They are mad. I'll be under the car, and they will "come home" and find their nest demolished. Then they just fly around the car like a lost puppy until I smash the living crap out of them with my Sergeant Swat fly swatter!

CamaroRider

Those wasps are there to INSPIRE you to work faster.

It sounds like you do indeed have a fuel pump failure. I cannot think of anything else you could test. Actually the only really hard part is the process of dropping the tank part. The assembly inside the fuel tank is rather trivial. Some people (me included) cut an access hatch to get to the fuel pump assembly rather than deal with all the hardware beneath the fuel tank (rusty bolts, etc.). But then I had to deal with cutting then coupling the 4 hard lines that exist and making a nice access hole cover. The good part is that the access hatch will allow easy access in the future, if needed.

mdpierce8

Just siphon it out. The gasoline vapors taste bad though.

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

The access hole idea sounds like an awesome idea! I could put a hinge on it, and make it look pro. Great idea. I think I'll try it.

mdpierce8, I would siphon it out, but now that I know the pump is bad I can look inside the tank and see if there is a bunch of rust and junk. If there is, then I'll siphon it, and then clean it out. If not, then I'll pump it out, and gas it up. Then she'll be ready to fire.

Thanks for the help thus far! More to come.

By the way... Have you ever smelled 5 year old gas. It is very strong and distinctly DISGUSTING! Doesn't really smell like gas... maybe gas, poop, and ****! I don't want that in my mouth. The siphon pumps at Wal-Mart are worth the $15.

mdpierce8

Yeah, that's a good point

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Ok, I cut a 8X12 inch square out of the trunk of the car. I didn't realize that the hard lines must be cut to get the sending unit out. I see that CamaroRider posted it, but I didn't see it. I tried for 3 hours to get the sending unit out without cutting the lines. I thought that was a bad thing to do on an FI car. Guess not. I ended up cutting the lines anyway. A 1 hour job turned into 4 hours. I have the lines coupled with high PSI hose and lots of screw clamps. This should be ok right?

So, I put the pump and strainer in after I tested the old pump. It was toast! I pumped the old gas out, and now I have to put new gas in on Monday. I'm excited to get it running. I have good spark, new fuel filter and fresh oil for the motor. ANythig else I should do before I fire it off?

CamaroRider

If you use the tool ''Search this Forum'' you can visit the various forums and look for any posts pertaining to an access hole, etc. There is at least one that is about four pages long. Many pictures, some show a detailed step by step process with pictures. That is what I followed. My TBI system only uses a maximum of about 15 PSI of fuel pressure so using double high-pressure hose clamps will work fine for me. But I do plan on installing an 'AN' type connector on the high (relatively high) fuel feed line. I would suggest that you do so when you have an opportunity due to your higher pressure. Maybe a shop in your area can do it for you since it needs a 37 degree flaring tool for 'AN' type connectors. But the object is to get the car running then improve things. I NEVER would have gotten this engine running if I had not made the access hole. No way would I have undertaken dropping the tank known as the 'proper way'.

Once you have the fuel pump installed make sure you put enough gas in the tank to submerge you new pump !! Maybe about 5 gallons. I would NOT use less than five gallons. That will prevent running the pump with inadequate fuel surrounding it.

Here is what I did in terms of 'initial priming' of the fuel 'system'. I turned the key from OFF to RUN (but not to CRANK) and waited the two seconds for the pump to stop running. Turn the key back to OFF and wait about 10 seconds. Turn the key again from OFF to RUN and waited the two seconds for the pump to stop running (a second time). Turn the key back to OFF and waited ten seconds. Maybe do this yet one more time. Then try starting the car. The idea is to push fuel right up to the fuel injectors (fill the fuel line) with the multiple two second runs so that you will have the required pressure when you finally do CRANK the engine. The injectors will be ready to fire at full pressure at this point so now you can CRANK the engine and get it running.

The time spent making the access hole, in my opinion, is well spent since if you have ANY future problems it will be TRIVIAL to pull the pump. I used 16 gauge sheet metal from Sears to make the hatch. This is 'weldable' steel and cost about $11.00 for the appropriate size. I cut the sheet with a hacksaw taking my time. Rounded the edges with a metal file, etc. It really looks nice. I do have rounded corners in both the access hole and the hatch. I use stainless steel pan head screws (8-32) around the perimeter (16 total) and stainless steel nuts below epoxied to strips of the same (excess) 16 gage weldable steel. The lower weldable steel strips are epoxied to the bottom of the Camaro sheet metal. So the screws go through the sheet metal hatch cover, through an EPDM rubber strip (to seal vapors out), through the Camaro sheet metal, through the small strips of sheet metal and finally through the stainless steel nuts that are epoxied below. I used Rustoleum 'Textured' 'AGED IRON' paint (my paint in the fuel hatch area is black) over primer to give the cover a really sharp, non-reflective appearance. The silver screw heads stand out very nicely. I sort of hate to cover up this hatch with the rug.

Keep us informed what happens. Good work so far. If your fuel injectors are actually firing and you have fuel pressure and spark it should fire. If it does not => DO NOT get discouraged <=. You might have to 'unstick' and clean your fuel injectors if they have been sitting unused for a long period of time. Many people do. You might have to verify that you are getting firing pulses from your ECM.

Just 'keep moving forward' !!

stealth908

iTrader: (2)

Thanks fo rthe information. Sounds like you did a really nice job on yours.

Yeah, I should have searched first. There's always an 'I should have' line when working on cars.

How do I 'unstick' the injectors if they are stuck? I heard Wal-Mart or alot of mechanics can run pressurized injector cleaner through the schrader valve at the rail. True?

CamaroRider

I have only two injectors on my TBI engine and they are able to be pulled out rather easily. I do not have experience with the 350 engine.

But I took each injector and lowered the 'working part' into carburetor cleaner and let them soak for a half hour to an hour. Then I left them in the carburetor cleaner and 'fired' them with 6 volts across the terminals. I used six volts to be on the 'low side' of voltage applied (to be safe). I just wanted them to click and get carburetor cleaner into the working surfaces. I then kept six volts on them for a about 5 seconds while I squirted carburetor cleaner through them backwards (my version of a 'back flush'). Then I let them soak for a little while longer (until I ran out of patience). Then I reinstalled them.

The nice part about doing this is that I then KNEW they could be fired and I then KNEW they were probably cleaner and I KNEW they had been back flushed. So the only thing I needed after installing them in the engine was fuel, proper fuel pressure and a 'fire' signal from the ECM.

I cannot really tell you if cleaning and 'six volt firing' was needed because my main problem at the time was a lack of proper fuel pressure. But I did not zero it down to this conclusion until I convinced myself that the fuel injectors were fine and the ECM was sending 'fire' pulses. It left only the fuel pressure as the problem.