Batass

Well I'm sure they do an initial break-in before the car goes out.

Guest

Is that to me? Well, go right ahead. Here's my 2 cents:

Years ago we had our local Amsoil rep continually boast about his product to every customer that came in our door while he was there. He sold the local city maintenance guy on it, 25k mile interval, bla bla. So he runs the oil and does an analysis every 1000 miles. Admittedly these were mostly a police fleet (LT1 Caprice/Impalas and no small fleet at that), but he couldnt get past 9000 miles even with filter changes before the oil was unusable. So he stuck with old school, was not cost effective to change. That was in 1996. I've found the same thing in checking my oil and tallying my receipts. That is precisely why I say its not cost effective, and I will continue to regardless of people telling me why I'm wrong. The math in my car file does not add up to anything but extra cost. Better wear properties? Absolutely. Wear properties I havent needed.

QuietFlight

I prefe synthetics like Motul, Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Mobil 1 because they are actually Synthetic oil.

other oils like Pennzoil, Valvoline, and Castrol (since being bought out by BP) are petroleum based oils made to meet the synthetic specifications.

Mototcycle oils carry very different additive packages. I prefer a Motul 10w40 4t synthetic in my 2007 ZX10. not only does it give supreme wet clutch performance but i have 30,000 miles on my ninja (yes its really an 07) 13,000 being track miles without any internal problem whatsoever. (oil is changed every 2500 miles.

take a look at this study for motorcycle oil info.
http://www.ezlubes.com/product_info/g2156.pdf

Batass

Interesting. Was the analysis reliable? 9000 is a good bit short of 25k. But, even so thats three times more than dino oil. Plus the better gas mileage which must count for something.

Lets say you drive 25k miles a year (the presumed average), in a car that gets 20mpg average. Lets say that synthetic gives you a half a mpg better.

At gas at 3.75 a gallon thats 110 bucks your saving a year.

Just food for thought.

RED86Z28

You should not break in non roller cams with synthetic oil.

Guest

I dunno, I presume it was reliable. The Amsoil guy of course got involved, and came up with the same results. I want it to be kept in mind most of those cars were in fact POLICE cars and I'm sure you're aware how those were driven. Surely that did not help.

Just as a price point comparison, no sale price, Wal-Mart was selling Mobil 1 at 22.88 for 5 quart container, and regular Valvoline dinosaur (what I usually use) for 10.18 for a 5 quart container. At approximately twice the mileage between changes (not an unrealistic request for those of us that dont drive like the city police) it cancels out. 2.25x as much to be exact. If things have not changed, Amsoil is a little more than the Mobil 1 in cost.

My TA was previously run entirely on a synthetic, Convoy I believe it was (brand I'd never heard of) for near its entire life. 92k miles there was not even the slightest hint of a wear mark at the top of the cylinders. It looked like a new engine. So it works, dont let anyone tell you it does not work for wear prevention.

hitman0187

honestly i would run pennzoil before convoy.

spray004

I run convential in my Camaro but I use synthetic in my truck. Currently I change it once a year but I hardly drive it. When I was driving it a lot, I was changing it every 6k miles. I've never had a problem out of the engine. I'm considering switching to synthetic for my Camaro but I haven't made my mind up yet.

As a side note, I tried synthetic blend in a small block I had years ago and it ran like pure crap on synthetic blend. I drove it maybe 100 miles before I drained it and switched to regular Valvoline and it ran great after that.

antman89iroc

Here's my .02.

I read an article once where they took NYC police and taxis and changed different groups at different intervals. Some at 3k, some at 5k, and some at 7k. Then they tore them down and inspected for wear and found there was little differance in wear between the groups. I change oil at around 5k.

I had around 170k on my IROC when I purchased it. Being new to me I treated it to a tune up oil change etc. I used synthetic oil and started to develope leaks at the front main seal. Was it because of the synthetic? I don't know.

I built the same engine later and used synthetic from the start up. cylinders 4 and 5 never seated the rings and it used oil from day 1. Was it because of the oil? I don't know.

I later re-ringed that same engine (same bore and pistons) this time I used conventional oil during break in and have had no problems with oil consumption. After break in I changed back to synthetic oil. No problems or leaks since.

The reason I use synthetic is this. Because of it's superior lubricating properties, I feel safe using a lighter weight oil therefore reducing paricitic drag. I don't think synthetic "makes" more power but using a lighter oil "looses" less power.

Batass

"As a side note, I tried synthetic blend in a small block I had years ago and it ran like pure crap on synthetic blend. I drove it maybe 100 miles before I drained it and switched to regular Valvoline and it ran great after that."

Maybe the engine needed a higher viscosity.

hitman0187

describe ran like crap... it sounds like a figment of your imagination.

spray004

I used the same weight as I had used with convential. The engine would bog severly and had a loss of power (very noticeable loss). Immediately after switching back to convential it ran fine. Sounds crazy but thats how it was. I believe the oil was Castrol Synthetic Blend. Wal-Mart had a special on the oil so I gave it a try.
That engine was weird. It would only run well on AC Delco plugs. We tried Champion, Autolite and Bosch and none ran as well as AC Delco. Yes the heat range and plug gaps were the same as the Delco.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

If synthetic is causing your engine to degrade in performance, then that's a sign of a much larger and more serious engine problem. Nothing in physics would allow a perfectly functioning engine to perform worse on synthetic than conventional. Unless you're using a weight in conventional that you're banking on the fact that it will thin significantly at running temp and then buying the same weight in synthetic to compare to, which would be bad because synth is only going to thin out a fraction of what the conventional is.

And there's nothing magical about oem replacement spark plugs, if it's the same material, same heat range, same gap, then as far as the car is concerned, it's the same plug. I'm thinking it was all in your head (like how a newly waxed car has better acceleration and handling than before), or the engine has an undiagnosed issue.


Just keep repeating in your head. Synthetic is just an idealized motor oil. It's not magic. It's not a different substance. It's just better than conventional and the only way you'd see otherwise in real life is if you're masking your engine's problems with the poorer thermal and breakdown performance of conventional oil.

and even if it costs 2 times as much and you only get 2 times as much time out of it, you have a much wider range of time to actually change the oil. Which more than makes up for the breaking even (though it's more like 3 times the time). Most people aren't going to change the dyno oil every 3k like they should, and overrunning that time is bad. With synth, they only have deal with changing the oil every 6k to 9k miles, which is more likely to get done. Plus, overrunning the time doesn't cause the sharp dropoff in performance because those are underestimates of interval time.

Run synth, be happy. If you need to mask some engine issues, use whatever works. But synth cant be detrimental to an engine, it's made of the same crap that's in conventional, it's molecules are more homogenous so it performs better.

spray004

It wasn't in my head. Like I said the engine was weird. We used 10W-30 in both convential and synthetic blend. The engine didn't have any problems mechanically, it ran like a champ. Besides the "feel" of the engine, the other way I knew both the plugs and oil were problems is that the truck would normally spin the tires 33x10.50x15's when it shifted into second (TH350) if you floored it. When I used different plugs or the synthetic it would stop spinning in first and wouldnt even come close to even chirping the tires in second little alone spinning them. Whenever I switched back it ran like always.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

10w30 synthetic is going to be 10w all the way through the temp range that engine runs in. 10w30 conventional wont be. By the time the engine is hot, it will be a few points lower. Maybe next time try 5w30 synth. You wont get any less lubrication than your conventional 10w and it will be more comparable to the viscosity of the conventional oil you're using when at operating temp.

spray004

I sold that truck over 5 years ago.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So I have a forged 386 that MIGHT see the track 3 times a year and I drive it into the fall. It is time to change the oil now as I am not running synthetic and it has almost been 4000 miles.

Royal Purple? Or just go to pep boys and oick up some Mobil 1?

I have pretty much never seen Amsoil as far as my memory is concerened.

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

I wouldnt put a thin oil like 5w30 in a v8 let alone a performance motor with miles on it. I use Castrol 10w40.

RED86Z28

5W30 has been the recommended fill for almost every GM engine for at least 20 years now. There is nothing wrong with it in a V8.

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

gm recommends 10w30 for our cars, 10w30 has always been the standard. I wouldnt trust that thin **** at all, its your car though if increased wear, thermal breakdown and shorter engine life are your thing go for it. My engine needs the extra protection of a thicker oil. Just about any gearhead whos been around and knows his **** will tell you the same thing.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

in 1992 and ever since then, as per the manual and written everywhere else on the car that it would be, GM recommends 5w30 for the car. 5w30 synthetic is not "risking" protection. Maybe you need 10w for racing, or maybe you need 10w for regular non-synth because it's thermal viscosity properties suck, but for daily drivers and just regular lead footers, 10w is just wasting gas by putting more parasitic drag on the motor.

5w synth is more than acceptable for our cars, V8's included. If you run it hotter in races and such, use 10w synth. Most should be fine with 5 though, as _that_ is the standard.

taylor740i

IVE BEEN IN THE AUTO REPAIR INDUSTRY FOR 18YRS.IVE SEEN CONVENTIONAL OIL CAUSE AN OIL LEAK WITH NEGLECTED ENGINES.IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE SYNTHETIC,JUST CLEAN THIN OIL CAN UNSLUDGE AN ENGINE.IVE HAD IT OUT WITH MANY CUSTS AFTER THEY BRING THEIR HIGH MILE POS IN MY SHOP FOR AN OIL CHANGE AND THEN EXPECT ME TO REPLACE THEIR REAR MAIN SEAL FOR FREE!LOL!DONT EVER BE SCARED TO SWITCH TO AND FROM SYNTHETIC.YOU CAN GET 200K OUT OF MOST ENGINES NOWADAYS WITH CONVENTIONAL OIL.BUT WE ARE CAR GUYS.SYNTHETIC IS OUT THERE AND GIVES US AN EDGE ON SO WE CANT SLEEP AT NITE UNLESS OUR CRANKS ARE SWIMMIN IN ITS SLIPPERY GOLDEN WARMTH.THINNER IS BETTER IF HP IS WHAT U WANT BUT IF U GOT MILES ON HER THEN SHES GOT SLOP HERE AND THERE.THE THICKER WEIGHT CUSHIONS THOSE WORN CLEARANCES.ON YOUR VETTES,THEY POUR THE SYN IN AFTER THEY DRAIN THE BREAK IN OIL.RINGS WILL NOT BREAK IN GOOD WITH SYN BECAUSE IT DOESNT CREATE ENUFF FRICTION TO SEAT THEM PROPERLY.

taylor740i

ive been in the auto repair industry for 18 yrs and i have seen oil leaks occur with just an oil change period.just clean,thin fresh oil will desludge an engine.doesnt have to be syn.u can get 200k out of most engines nowadays with conventional oil.but we are car guys.we need the killer weed in our engines.syn gives us a hp edge so we cant sleep at nite unless our crank is swimmin in its slippery golden warmth. on ur vettes they pour the syn in after they drain the break in oil.rings will not seat properly with syn because it reduces the needed friction to "break them into" the cylinder walls.thicker cushions worn clearances better and cost little hp and fuel economy.run the thin crap in ur honda.

antman89iroc

I enjoy reading the different opinions posted here. I think some of them are valid and some not. I also believe there are a lot of conseptions (and mis-conseptions) that are carry overs from years past.

I too disliked using "thin" oil in my car and resisted it for years (although my oil cap clearly states "5W-30") I think it's because growing up every hot car used 20-50 so I started to believe 20-50 is "right" for a performance motor. But I'm not building a small journal 327 with 0.003" clearances! Old engines with large clearances may have needed heavy oil but modern engines don't. And that's before I even consider the leaps made in the past few decades in the "oil" industry. The stuff is just better these days.

I had the same conseption about "high volume" oil pumps. But that's another discussion.

I have observed that as an engine wears the oil pressure drops. So more pressure is better right! Doesn't work that way. It may "feel" good to see 80 PSI at idle but it isn't needed. In fact it's a waste of energy to generate that pressure. An engine built to use 5-30 will last a long time and in fact the thinner oil may be a benefit due to it's ability to more quickly get to the bearings when cold, therefore reducion wear and increasing life.

But I digress. What does all this have to do with syithetic oil? Well if I let go of all that old thinking, take time to become educated on facts, not heresay, my opinion changes.

Thick oil isn't better in all cases. Synthetic oil doesn't cause leaks or "make" power. Conventional oil isn't junk. They all have their places. I feel very comfortable running synthitic oil at 5w-30, Idleing at 25-30 PSI hot and changing oil every 5-6k miles.

Guest

Amsoil is mostly (if not entirely) sold by independents like five7. We had it in stock where I worked, but supplied by an independent, kind of a consignment type deal we had with him.

Mobil I noticed is also selling a (among the 500 others) mix for 'fuel mileage'. They have a breakdown on the back about mileage increase and savings, a claimed 2% gain and they used a 20MPG car at $3/gallon gas (I wish) and IIRC it was $141/year printed on the container. I think they used 12 or 15k miles per year of driving, something like that... and just doing a rough calc the numbers dont add up. They have a thing on their website you can enter your fuel cost, annual mileage, and MPG and... fuel tank size???? Dunno why they want that, totally useless. It tells you your annual savings using their 2x the cost oil. Says I'll save $35 a year in fuel cost.

Batass

The national average is 25k miles a year.
Lets just say 15 though.

15,000/20mpg=750 x$3.75=2813
15,000/20.5=732 x3.75=2745

$68 savings. For 25k miles a year its over a hundred.

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

Everyones got their own opinion on this sort of thing its all a matter of opinion. Like my neighbor he wont use anything but straight weight oil

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Several years ago AMSOIL sponsored a police fleet comparison using the by-pass filter system and regular oil analysis in half the fleet, and regular conventional oil changes based on time & mileage in the other half. The savings over regular conventional oil changes were significant, and even more so when you factor in labor and loss-of-use time during maintenance. Post-test tear-downs showed less wear and fewer deposits with the AMSOIL engines. Similar tests were done with taxi fleets, and many over-the-road fleets have conducted their own comparisons. Using the right products and services for the application is critical.

You misunderstand the rating system. The "W" viscosity number only applies to cold temps. When the engine is hot, the 2nd number applies to the viscosity. They are completely different tests conducted on the same product to give it its overall viscosity rating. It doesn't matter whether the product is petroleum, synthetic, or blend, it will have to meet a certain viscosity range at the given test temperatures in order to be rated at 10W-30, 5W-30, etc.

What is true is that a quality synthetic will tend to thicken less at temperatures below the cold rating temperature, and thin less above the hot rating temperature, than similarly rated petroleum-based oil.

It is also true that you could have a 5W oil that is thicker at the rated cold temp than another 10W oil, and a 30 weight oil that is thicker at the rated hot temp than a 40 weight oil; because the ratings are a range, not a fixed value.

Guest

Talking about wear over time is really where I get irritated. Other than my friend who drives coast to coast in a rig, I cant think of anyone I know well who has kept their vehicle past the engine wear point using dino oil. I've seen them change hands within families and collect a lot of miles, but... thats it. The anti wear properties are so well documented its really pointless to discuss and argue that it exists, if you think it does not help prevent wear then you are living under a rock. Its just not something I see as a factor to consider, and most people I know fall into the same boat. They just dont keep their vehicles that long. The car around the engine either falls apart or the emissions go haywire from worn EGR's and cats and the cars get junked around here. It makes the anti-wear savings a waste for the person that spent the money to prevent wear. Same goes for 'loss of use', I spend about 20 minutes changing my oil and theres no loss of use. A fleet? Sure, great idea. My personal car? Who cares. If I had any plans to put 500k miles on it... by all means I'd use synthetic. I havent put more than 100k on any car I've owned so... I dont use it. Well I use it in my supercharged TA but thats because of the supercharger. I'd like that not to wear.

Anyway, to the point. I dont have a back to back yet (and I will at some point), but I went ahead and tried some manmade stuff just for a point of reference for those questioning using it. I bought a 5qt container of Mobil 1 0W-30 'Advanced Fuel Economy' (whatever thats supposed to mean) at WallyWorld for 21 and some change. As another point of reference earlier that same day I bought a case of 5W-30 dino oil for 99 cents a quart after rebate. I'll let you figure out which is less expensive. Here's what I can tell you, to this point:

I took the car to Las Vegas. Normally, of late, the car gets 27-28 on the highway on the wonderful poor fuel economy fuel they sell here. I got 30 going there, and 31 coming back. I cant recall ever getting over 30 with this car. Now I did do some other things, made sure my air pressure in the tires was good, changed the air and fuel filters, checked the alignment. So its possible there was more than one factor, but irregardless the mileage went up considerably. I seriously doubt anything but the air in the tires and the oil in the crankcase were the reason for it. Once I get some free time (and a bunch of money at $4.25/gallon) I plan to make a run somewhere and back, then do a drain and fill with dino, and make the same run and see if there's any difference. The car had an oil leak previously, at least one bad valve cover gasket. Its not leaking any worse so you can put that notion to rest for now. I've never seen it before on any other car either, I think the leak thing is just a myth that wont die. Inside the valve covers is clean so I doubt that any buildup will be cleaned out and cause a worse leak. I can say that with the 5W-30 dino oil I was running that the bad lifter in this thing was fairly quiet and now its fairly pronounced. Before once the car was running for a few seconds it was mostly unnoticeable and once warm it was totally quiet. I can hear it all the time now, just started, cold, warm, whatever. Its been making noise for 40k miles that I know of and now that I put in this particular synthetic, its noisy all the time. Obviously the viscosity is not the same, but I was not expecting that much of a difference. Testing oils in the lab at school did not reveal that much of a difference in 5W-30 and 10W-30, so I figured it'd be close. Hah. Its thinner. My bad lifter says so.

Guest

Another update:

I've filled up a few times since the changes, and I'm getting 21.5-21.7MPG in 'mixed' driving. Being in SoCal, thats more like city mileage than anything. I was getting right around 20 before, usually 20.3-20.5 at best. So thats a little over 1MPG from an oil change to a thinner, synthetic oil, and airing up the tires, cleaning the car, checked the alignment. So if you're looking for more mileage, check your tire pressure and maybe consider the synthetic if you want to ante up to pay for it. I still have not found any on sale unless you count a discount on a single quart of Valvoline. I may be able to swap out the oil in the next month and see what I get dino vs syn.

91z 2 8

I was told that if you use RP and a good oil filter like K&N or Mobil1 the filter actully takes the oil molecules out(i think that how he worded it) and just leave the synthtic stuff. This guy at my local AnA told me about how he had a mustang cobra got the engine rebuilt used RP then 2 weeks later the motor blew cause of what i stated above. Sorry for the bad wording i dont really no how to say it.

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

nonsense, believe half of what you read and none of what you hear

Toehead

Blame the builder, not the oil

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

with both of them!

Guest

Tell that guy it is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

blp226

I think I can give you a definative answer. I work for Mobil. Synthetic WILL NOT harm your motor! The main diference in synthetic is temperature. Yes synthetic is better in almost every way then 'regular' oil, but.... Synthetic has a higher resistance to breakdown at sustained higher rpm temperatures which is its most pronounced advantage. That is why a lot of the high speed cruisers like Corvette, Ferrari, some BMWs require it. If your not planning on driving for a few hundred miles at triple digit speed then synthetic is only a minor advantage. If your going to be like most of us, and drive back and forth to work with a decent amount of "hot-rodding" thrown in. I would advise an odd choice. Rotela 15/40. I know its a desiel oil, but it is also a superb oil for your average car. I run it in my 383 stroked Z-28, Jeep Cherokee, big block 77 T/A, and my corvette. A corvette that says Mobil 1 synthetic only. The vette has over 100K and runs perfect! Several cam companies require rotela for the break-in period. It's good stuff, but so is Mobil 1.

Batass

Hehe, had to throw that in there. I'll have to check out this Rotela.

Simply-305

i have heard good things about Rotela .

i currently use 10w30 M1 Fully synthetic...

mild work 305 carbed.

thats all i have ever ran my cars with.. and never had problems..

im thinking about trying out the rotela.....

well if i can get more info on it..

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The "good" thing about Rotella is it still has the zinc & phosphorous anti-wear additives because it's a diesel oil. ILSAC GF-4 oils have greatly reduced those additives in order to avoid potential damage to sensors in newer gasoline engines. This is really only an issue if you have a flat tappet cam. The disadvantages of a petroleum-based oil outweigh the benefits of those additives in any other type of engine.

I'm sure that was mentioned somewhere in this thread, but I don't have time to go all the way through it tonight and find it for you.

As always, misinformation reigns supreme. . .

Guest

Another update:

I've had a few more fillups and I've gotten 21.0, 21.3, and 21.5, plus one at 20.2 that I'm not sure why that happened.
I've also noticed that the pesky lifter tick has quieted down. Odd.

Guest

I've been consistently getting 21-21.5 MPG with the car. Just recently, I had to change over to dino oil since I dont feel like throwing away $25 worth of synthetic for a engine flush. Its a 3.1 and of course the lower intake gasket sprung a leak so I'm going to run some cheap oil for a little while and change it in about 500 miles +/- with some fresh synthetic. In the meantime I'll be checking the mileage to see what its getting. I may be taking another trip with it so I may get a backup run (in different weather though) to see what kind of mileage I get with purely highway miles and dino oil.

Batass

Sounds good, what car is this btw?

Guest

2000 Malibu

8urv8

Yeah man, Iv'e been running Royal Purple 5w20 in my 3.1L and I absolutely love it. I will never use another brand again!