zacharyhorn

iTrader: (1)

I'm itching to get my car out of storage and I ran Rotella T before, but now that even they took out the additives needed for the flat tappet, I'm making a switch to Valvoline Vr1. My question is, what do you other guys run with your flat tappet cams?

84 z28

i use VR1 20-50 in mine.

first64

iTrader: (2)

Here's some info:

As far as the ZDDplus goes ,its good in theory and it tested at good lvl of zddp but i have not seen or heard of any 1st hand expeirence or dyno test data to back it up so your on your own there.

DO NOT USE THE NEWER CJ RATED SHEEL ROTELLA 15w-40FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM PROTECTION,THE ZDDP HAS BEEN REDUCED TO UNDER 1200PPM in the newer CJ rate shelle rotella 15w-40 which is below the rec lvl to properly protect a perf flat tappet cam. The older CI rated shell rotella 15w-40 is still ok to use for flat tappet cam protection but if you already have the newer CJ oil in the motor use some gm eos or crane superlube breakin concentrate with the newer shell CJ rated 15w-40 oil with reduced ZDDP you should be ok.

As far as oils to use with decent zddp lvls for flat tappet cam breakin and post cam breakin here are a few (conventional unless otherwise noted) oils that tested as having a minimum of or above of approx 1200ppm Zn which is required for aftermarket flat tappet perf cam protection.

* SHELL ROTELLA SINGLE GRADE 30WT

* CHEVRON DELO 400 LE 15W-40 (APPROVED BY MFG FOR GAS & DIESEL ENGINES)

* CASTROL TRUCK & 4X4 SYN BLEND 15W-40 (NOT DIESEL OIL)

* LUBRIPLATE GPO 15W-40 OIL (BUY ONLINE DIRECT FROM MFG)

* PENNZOIL GT 25W-50 RACING OIL

* VALVOLINE NSL/NOT STREET LEGAL 20W-50 (ORDER FROM NAPA/SUMMITT/JEGS)

* ROYAL PURPLE FULL SYN 10W-30

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Damnit. The only "regular" viscosity oil there is royal purple full synthetic (weird, a synthetic...) and that crap is like $10 a liter or something ridiculous.

I'll be looking for some of that Chevron Delo 400 LE. I thought Chevrons diesel oil was called Delvac?

F-BIRD'88

Was using the Rotella T but now that has a reformulated additive package to meet 2007+ diesel truck emissions. (Has the new multi coloured thingy on the label)
Guess I'll be using the Canadian Tire "MotoMaster" house brand HD Diesel oil 15w-40.
Has the green label. Has the CI rating. A buck cheaper than the Rotella T (4 liters).

This was the only CI-1 "SL" rated motor oil I could find at CTC now.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Thanks! CI rating is the magic info? I may as well get a 20L pail, i'll use it up sooner or later...

leecar83

iTrader: (1)

Mobil One synthetic 15w-50 has 1200ppm ZDDP. Last time I changed my oil I noticed on the label that they had even begun to market it toward usage in older flat tappet motors.

zacharyhorn

iTrader: (1)

So CI is what we're looking for? I've heard that the Valvoline VR1 has the zinc additive needed for the flat tappet motors? Misunderstanding?

ezysk

I had read that Valvoline VR1 has the zinc additives as well.
That is why I switched to it last year.

84 z28

When I bought my new cam I called up Lunati for some oil advice and they said to use VR1 20-50 so thats what im stickin with. They said any racing motor oil will do the trick but they recomended VR1.
----------
Here is some mombo jumbo for those of you that might understand it. i sure dont.


http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

zacharyhorn

iTrader: (1)

Good info right there. How much per quart? I could run to the auto parts store and check but I'm at work.

84 z28

Jegs is selling it for 4.99 a quart
Advance auto parts selling it for 3.18

wrsjr

I run 10W-30 Valvoline VR1 in my 355. I used it for cam break in and I've used it since then. 20W-50 is just too thick IMO.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/hdd.aspx
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ame.aspx

I typically use the 5W-30.

For the record, AMSOIL says your flat tappet engine will be fine with any of their gasoline rated products. Since they've always said they will pay any warranty claim an OE denies because you used their product, and to date there hasn't been a single case of their oil causing a warranty claim, I think you can trust what they say.

shaggy56

Same as Rotella. Rotella used to have 1400ppm of zddp.

Im pretty sure Rotella has plenty of the additives you need. They did reduce some of the additive but not by much. The oil has a good balance of additives to still perform well.

F-BIRD'88

No new cars use flat tappet cams. No new cars use flat tappet cams with high spring pressures, high camshaft lobe lift rates and high rpm.

oldred95

I use Mystic 15w 40 synthetic blend but its still of the CI designation. I notice you can buy it as thin as 5w 30 in quarts but I buy it 2 gallons at a time. Its a little cheaper that way.

SteelTownMadDog

iTrader: (2)

What's the CI thing anyhow?

vette gator

Same here. I run it in my 76 and 89 Vettes as well as my 85 Z28. BTW, I know the 89 L98 has a roller cam, but I like the extra wear additives since the motor has 165K on it.

Damon

Wal Mart house brand oil with half a bottle of GM EOS added. No joke. The base oil stock, like most oils, is way better than you'll ever need it to be. It's just the ZDP additives that are lacking in recent street-legal oils for use with flat tappet cams.

GM EOS has been reformulated recently as well, by the way (not for the better, from what I've read, and it's tough to get your hands on in some areas). So I've switched to Crane Super Break In Concentrate, which is basically the same as the old/good formulation GM EOS.

If you're breaking in a new cam I use a full bottle. For oil changes thereafter I use half a bottle. If you want to run synthetic oil that's fine, but STILL add this concentrate- synthetics are subject to the same reductions in the ZDP additive packages as regular oils are.

"Racing" oils (which are not legal for street use) have adequate levels of the ZDP additives, and that has been true since forever. The EPA is the one that mandated reductions in ZDP additives for emissions reasons in street legal oils. However, you'll be hard pressed to find "racing" oils in any weight other than 20W50 or straight 50W. That may be thicker than you want to run on the street in your daily driver. That's why I use cheap-o oils in my desired viscosity and just add the "good stuff" back into it with the above mentioned additives.

mike1986fyrbird

The zinc and phosphorous content in the new CJ-4 triple protection Rotella T didn't descrease much.

OLD CI-4 15w40 Rotella T
Zinc: 1380ppm Phosphorous: 1280ppm

NEW CJ-4 15w40 Rotella T
Zinc: 1220ppm Phosphorous: 1110ppm

Right from shell;
http://www.shell.com/static/ca-en/do...omparisons.pdf

wrsjr

do you consider VR1 race oil? If so they make 10W-30

84 z28

I consider it racing oil and yes they make a 10w-30.

gatorcola

Good grief I'm ignorant. I've had my 5.0 IROC for 20 years and have no idea what you guys are talking about. What the heck is a flat tappet? My ride has 103k on it - what should I use?

vette gator

The quick summary is that motor oil used to contain a good bit of ZDDP, which is an additive designed to minimize wear. This is especially important for flat tappet (non-roller) cams to avoid wearing down the cam lobes (wiped lobes). Recent rule changes have forced manufacturers to decrease ZDDP levels significantly. The biggest problems seem to occur when newly-built flat tappet motors are being broken in using low ZDDP oil and several people have reported wiped lobes under these conditions.

What's not as clear is whether older, already broken-in flat tappet motors still need high levels of ZDDP in the oil. Most people (myself included) figure safe is better than sorry, which is why we're all looking for oils with the old, high ZDDP levels. Roller cams started to be used in 87, I believe, so it's not so much an issue 87's and later.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Understood. It's a matter of having confidence in the anti-wear properties of your products, regardless of how others have to get there.

Going way back in this thread: I'm not finding any "CI-1" API rating. Did you mean "CI-4"? The oils I linked meet both CI-4+ and SL.

5678TA

GM stopped selling EOS in hawaii.. couldnt get any from anywhere in the summer.. had to just go with valvoline racing NSL (not street legal).. it is 20w50 but where i'm at, it doesnt matter.. only takes 30 seconds for the oil to thin up.. long enough for me to get settled in my seat and put on my 5pt.. i'll have to look into that crane super break in concentrate stuff..

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I just bought two jugs of the C-tire diesel oil. Both show CI-4. So i'm hoping thats the right one?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Do they show an SL rating?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I need to modify my previous statement slightly - AMSOIL modified their TSB on this topic late last year.

For modified, high-performance engines, AMSOIL does recommend their oils that have the higher zinc and phosphorous levels, which includes the 5W-30 diesel oil I already mentioned, a 10W-40, and 20W-50 (all CI-4+ and SL), a 20W-50 racing oil, and a 60 weight racing oil. All have at least 1200 ppm phosphorous and 1300 ppm zinc.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

think you could safely break-in a new solid flat tappet camshaft on that Amsoil 20w-50 racing oil? should i still put an EOS additive in?

i have a hyd. flat tappet in the car now and am running Royal Purple 5w-30 with no ill effects, but i got this camshaft used, broke in a new set of lifters using shell rotella-t and an oil additive that had zinc in it. (i had no idea about CI ratings and such till i read this thread actually). it obviously worked ok, but i'm only running a comp 981 spring that is only a little stouter than a stock spring.

when i break in my new camshaft, i'll be running the 981 outters only and swtich to an ISKY 235D spring once the camshaft is broken-in. it seems that once the camshaft is broken in and has a few miles on it and all of everyting is working correctly, that pretty much any oil is fine...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Every cam manufacturer I know says to not use synthetic for the break-in.

The AMSOIL TSB says: "Proper assembly lubes and oil additives should be used during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with flat tappets. These additives provide the extra protection required at the point of contact during break-in to help the flat tappet face to properly mate with the cam lobe. Once the break-in phase is completed, these additives should not be used because of other engine life issues created by long term use of these materials. AMSOIL does not provide break-in assembly lubricants, but one of the common products is GM E.O.S., which is an assembly lubricant and is not, as stated by GM, an engine oil additive. AMSOIL does not recommend using any engine oil additives with AMSOIL engine lubricants." They don't specifically say not to use synthetic during break-in, interestingly enough. Since the cam guys say not to use synthetic during break-in, I wouldn't.

My engine builder source said to put ARP thread lube on the bottom of the lifters and on the lobes, not to bother taking the inner springs out - which is what I did with the XS282 in the 396, along with "standard" petroleum engine oil. I switched to the 5W-30 diesel oil after the cam break-in. It's been just fine.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

arp thread lube? really? what's different about that and the stuff that camshaft manufacturers give you with the new camshaft?

thesargster4

iTrader: (1)

AMSOIL FTW!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I'm fairly certain ARP thread lube is just moly paste, identical to most of the grey pastes that cam manufactures give you as their assembly lube.
PS Matt, I love your new sig pic.
I hope I can get my 350 movin' that fast !

T.L.

I am starting to think that a ZDP additive is necessary only during initial break-in. This is based upon this article I read, which was published in the GM Techlink newsletter:


Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths (fig. 1). Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.
The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania (fig. 2).
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.
Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils
are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.

If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) (fig. 3 and 4) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s (fig. 5).
Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)

Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.

Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group