poopapooman

Hi
I recently pulled a 350 from a 77 Caprice Station Wagon at my grandfather’s farm. The car has been sitting since the mid 80s but according to my father and uncles the engine ran and drove fine when it was sat. The reason my family sat a perfectly running car was because the car was given to them by a wealthy women up the road who was sick of the other problems with the car. The car had broken door handles and the interior was garbage. After further asking, I found out that the car had a relatively new engine in it because the old one was blown and she had a new one put in. the block is blue which could mean nothing but a pretty good mechanic told me that these blocks were good and generally were not put in by gm (he could be wrong so don’t take my word for it). After pulling the engine I turned the crank with a tire arm and a pipe for leverage to check for compression, it had compression.

I plan on rebuilding this engine for performance, so I’m not going to just throw in some new oil and springs and run it. I plan on pretty much buying everything new that I can (maybe not the heads $$$$). Currently I have taken everything off down to the heads and block.
Originally I wanted to stroke it to a 383 but I took off the oil pan and it’s only a 2 bolt. Now I know many people have different opinions about stroking a 2 bolt but I don’t want my post to turn into a 2 bolts aren’t strong enough argument. I look at it like this, I can still build a pretty decent 350 and since I’m only a college student and can’t afford to put money into an engine that might blow in a year or two. I plan on dropping this engine in my 92 firebird which is going to be a street/strip car, mostly street for I might just take it to the track for qaurter mile times. I want to build this engine best for stoplight to stoplight street racing (low to mid power) and would be willing to compromise power for high speed racing. I look at it this way: an unsafe start ticket is nothing to worry about compared to a 150 in a 65 ticket.

Now that I got the background and planning info out of the way here’s where I could use some tips. I know from researching and reading some info on engine rebuilding but I don’t have any 1st hand experience like many of you gear heads on this site have. I do have an uncle that is a very decent mechanic and has rebuilt engines many times but he lacks new technology info and the initiative to build a fast car. he’s kind of one of those old gurus that puts down everything saying things like "your car is fine the way it is" and complaining how much work everything is. But I bet if he looked back at when he was young he be doing the same thing as me. he admitted he’d help me rebuild the engine and use his garage but when it comes to taking the right path and choosing the right parts I would like better advise otherwise the engine would be a late 70s 350 with stock parts.

My first question is about magnafluxing. Since the engine reportedly ran and had compression should I spend the money to magnaflux the block?

Now I know there may be cylinder ware and a machinist may recommend boring to a certain point, but say the cylinders are pretty good. What should I have the engine bored to? I was thinking 30 over but maybe I could go 40. Someone told me never to go like 50 or more over unless you plan blowing your motor in a year but I think he was only talking about off-road drag cars. Remember it’s a 2 bolt.

Since it’s a 2 bolt. Maybe I can strengthen up the main by having splayed caps installed. Does anyone know if machine shops do this? Price? Would it be worth it?

Now I know prices can be cheaper and more comfortable knowing parts will fit by buying a rebuild kit but if I can spend a little more money to get the best performance possible by buying parts separately than I will. Now money is a problem but I’m a very good saver and would rather get the best performance I can while I have the engine on a stand and not in the car. I don’t want to think back in a couple years saying I wish I went with these pistons or cam...ECT. Can anyone recommend any rebuild kits; I don’t care about emission testing since in NY, inspections are easy and I have many friends, so if the kit is meant for strip only and puts out more power so be it(its not like California here). Also if anyone has gone thru this b4 and recommends buying parts separately then let me know.

Not sure what I should do with the heads. I know I can port and polish them but it would be a little tougher since they’re iron heads or I could spend a grand for good heads. What do u guys recommend and how much more power can I get by buying new heads rather than to port and polishing them.

Next thing is cam. Many builders recommend choosing your bottom end parts and heads first. Which sounds like a good idea. But after looking around at cams I became confused about their specs. I’m not sure which cams are better for low to mid power because of their specs say for instance a cam offers 1200 - 4200 rpms 260 duration .427 lift and 110 lobe separation. Now correct me if I’m wrong but the confusing part is that when you’re at a stand still and you accelerate your not shifting till the power band so you need your power at higher rpms. I know I may sound stupid but I’ve been trying to understand cams for awhile and I’m still a bit confused. I slightly understand the other specs but I’m still not sure what the better range of numbers is for duration, lift and lobe separation to get the best low to mid end power. So if someone could give me number ranges for these specs to get the best low to mid power that would be great.

Now I could be wrong but I think intake and carb are pretty easy. Just choose the intake and carb that offer the best cfm air intake and consider clearance.

I’m sure somebody out there has put and older style carbed 350 in a thirdgen firebird so can anybody offer advise on the oil pan and headers for clearance issues? I don’t think there’s any difference of third gens but mine is a 92 if there is.

I know I’m going to have to get new motor mounts but that’s pretty simple.

It’s kind of early to think about transmission and rear-end but many say it’s good to have your drive train planned out in order to get the best of what u want from your car. In my situation I want a car that can get from 0-60 fast. My firebird is an automatic but as we all know there is already a hole above the tranny because the auto shifter is on the floor. Is the hole in the right location and big enough to put a manual tranny in? Many have told me it’s a pain to put a clutch and tranny lines in but would it be worth it?

I know the higher the gear ratio the faster off the line the car will be but I don’t want to be only able to go 60mph and I don’t want the wheels to spin only at the touch of the gas for that would cause me to loose races.

For the power the motor will have a stock tranny and rear-end would obviously be a bad idea. So can anyone let me know if it’s worth it to rebuild a tranny and rear-end with stronger aftermarket parts or buy an aftermarket tranny and rear-end? What are the better quality aftermarket transmissions and rear ends out there?

I m sorry about the extremely long thread but I tried to explain everything so the people who may try to help me can actually offer answers instead of more questions because the author of the thread wasn’t specific enough.

Thanks,
Tim

grover85

iTrader: (1)

Holy long post. Let me see if I can give you some good imput.
Question. What do you want out of the car? What kind of power are you looking for? That would be a big question when looking for parts.
Is your car a v6?
Is this car a daily driver?

poopapooman

best 0-60 power, currently its a v6, its off the road now so i can restore and drop the engine eventually after everythings done the car will have too much work done to it and horrible gas mileage to drive it everyday.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If their was no rust in the cylinders, leave the shortblock alone. You aren't getting stoplight-to-stoplight performance out of changing pistons or rods (although 383 would be an improvement in that arena).

There's nothing wrong with a 2-bolt. It's plenty strong, and in at least one way, stronger than a factory 4-bolt. It can be made much stronger than either, but isn't necessary for your stated goal.

A cam like a Comp XE256, better heads than what were on that engine (doesn't matter if it was the stock '77 350 or replacement 350, the heads can be assumed to be terrible), an aftermarket intake manifold like the Edelbrock Performer, q-jet or 650 Holley, headers, you'll be in good shape to do what you're after.

Heads are pretty much a must. Seriously consider something like Vortec and a Vortec Performer. Save the money of a shortblock rebuild and put it where it will make a difference.

TH700 is a good choice for a street performance transmission. Put a Powertrax in your probably open rear end with decent gears, that's about all you're going to need.

poopapooman

can u give me reason why u chose the Comp XE256 cam? not b/c i disagree but u seem to know what ur talking about and i would like to know what basis u chose that cam for instance what specs for a cam are good for stoplight to stoplight street racing?

if i replaced everything in the heads i got and port and polished them would it still be much better to just spend money on brand new heads like u say? i cant see port and polish from a machine shop being more than $300 and replacing the rocker arms, valves and springs cant be more than $300 thats $600. Would the combustion chamber be the only thing different from my heads with the $600 worth of work and $1000 new heads? is the chamber what makes the biggest performance difference between old and new heads such as vortecs?

i understand your reasoning about keeping the lower end but that engines been sitting for a little over 20 years and id rather spend the money to be comfortable. u dont think that boring the cylinders 30 over will be beneficial?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The XE256 will have good low-end torque, which is what you need for off-the-line performance.

Post the casting #'s from the heads. That's the only way to know whether they are worth messing with. Most likely they're 76cc chamber smog junk.

Boring the cylinders would only be beneficial if they are worn or corroded.

poopapooman

i should be able to get the #s this weekend but after looking on summit new heads ranged from 200 to 500 dollars! is that the price for 1 head or both. if both nevermind my stupid idea to clean up the old ones will probably cost the same.

so a bigger cumbustion champer is worse for performance i figured the opposite. im sorry for being ignorant but if i could find a place to learn stuff like this i wouldnt be wasting your time w/ stupid questions.

ps since your an administrator could u consider getting rid of my probation; i have apologized to everyone for my lude comments and dont know what i was doing a couple of months ago. i asked JT(the one who put me on if he could take me off quiet ahwile after he put me probation and he never replied back. i tried pming and emailing him multiple times with no response.
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sorry about posting the same thread twice. I just wanted to get the most answers possible.

do u think id get more answers on the engine swap or general engine swap forums?

poopapooman

sorry correction: do u think id have more answers on the engine swap or general engine tech forums?

what happened to editing your posts?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Large chambers lower compression. That in itself isn't so bad, because you can get domed pistons to bring compression back up, but the heads also don't flow very well because of their port design. Porting doesn't help much unless you've been through a lot of experimenting on how to get them to at least flow half-way decent.

I suppose this is as much general engine tech as it is swap.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

305 heads from a mid '80s GM vehicle are dirt cheap, and better than the smogger 70's heads. You can get them for a song, then port them. That's what i'm using, and i'm happy with the performance.
$200-$500 is generally per head. You're looking at $700+ for a set, complete. The exception is Vortecs, those are cheaper, and work great.

Wondering why they're so popular? That's why.

A compxe256 would work great, but personally I think it's kinda WEE. I'd step up to the xe262h. But that's just me, they're very close.

A basic edelbrock intake is worth it's weight in gold, and it's only ~$150 new, so i'd opt for that. A q-jet carb can be had from the wreckers for cheap (another song eh?), with a rebuild (learning experience under your belt for carbs) and you've got a rockin' carb for under $100.
You've got $250 for induction right there, that's DIRT cheap.

See my sig for my barebones combo.

TransAM Joe

iTrader: (6)

first off stock 2 bolt main bottom end is plenty strong unless your running forced induction (super charger, turbo; splayed caps/4 bolt mains are a waste of money unless you plan to see 500hp or huge compression), just change the bearings and seals, like previouly stated. In my experience go with economical vortec heads and a lower lift flat tappet cam like five seven kid stated, best bang for your buck, spend the money where it hit you in the pants the most. Build the motor to blue print specs, measure everything. I can't tell you have many people come to me saying "I just spent 10 thousand dollars on this motor and it's got no power." 9 times out of 10 they don't measure anything and just slap it together thinking if will be great.

89RsPower!

"My firebird is an automatic but as we all know there is already a hole above the tranny because the auto shifter is on the floor"

There is no whole in the floor. There is simly a welded on bracket to the trans tunnel which the auto shifter bolts to. To convert it to manual u must cut the shifter hole and the hole for the slave cylinder. Either way you need a trans since a v6 tranny wont bolt up..

SpitotRs305

first in order to blueprint an engine he would need a engine blueprint for which ever engine he would like to model his after... not owning your own machine shop also puts a major dampener on "blueprinting" your own engine...

second... being wicked careful and measuring everything 4-5 times doesn't alway guarantee success...just ask wishmaster... nor will it make more power than an engine that was just slapped together... how ever that same engine with POORLY chosen parts that total 10K and all are proper seizes will still be an under performer...and 9 out of 10 times people who complain about thier engine having no ***** either didnt really have a clue as to what they were doing or... no thats really it... the ten, also didnt have a clue... but to make it worse he picked a massive CAM

poopapooman

i think im just gonna take ur advise and buy the vortec heads. i didnt realize that they were less money than i expected ($500 not $1000).
IM sure the summit price of aroune $400 for 2 heads not only 1.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The Summit price of $300 for the NAL-12558060 basic Vortec heads with basic springs and no special machine work is for each head.

The $280 for the NAL-12529093 just gets you a head - no valves, no springs.

And, you still need to get an intake manifold, gaskets, and self-aligning rocker arms. Check www.sdparts.com for their Vortec head kits - come with assembled heads, intake manifold, gaskets, bolts, and rocker arms. The least expensive carb manifold kit would fit your purposes well.

poopapooman

sorry for the long delay had some troubles in college. i have reconsidered what i want to do with the 350 block. even though its a 2 bolt main i want to stroke it to a 383. i think it'l be okay bc im building it for a street car emphasizing low end torque. i know people may question why i want to sacrifice top end power for low end power this is because i want to be able to beet other cars on low traffic roads around me with 8th to 1/4 mile straight patches. so i guess what im tryin to say is i want to build my 383 to be the best at 8th to qaurter mile street racing.

Now i know b4 i said that im on a budget, but not to take your guys advice for granted but i want to do more than keep the stock bottom end and throw on top end stuff. i pretty much wanna make my own crate engine using the old block. now i know i could probably buy a crate engine for the same price but it wont match my specific specs for low end power i want. i want to be able to go to the gas station for fuel so i need it to run on pump gas.(around here they have 87, 91 and 93). from what iv heard u cannot go much over 10:1 compression on pump gas or you'll detonate.

Now i know to raise compression several methods can be done and i know to build a 383 u need to bore the cylinders 30 over. the other ways to build up compression that i know are to deck the block, small cc chamber in head and a thinner head gasket. i want to find the cheapest way to get around 10:1 compression unless i can go more on pump gas.

so ideally if i was a millionare which parts would i buy to build the fastest 383 for 8th to 1/4 mile street races. after getting this info i can understand the manufaturers specifications on the elite parts in which i can shop around and make compromises between performance, quality and prices.

from looking around iv found a kit that is probably ideal for my situation if u can suggest better go ahead

Northern Auto Parts :Chevy 383 Stroker Engine Kit - HP383KHW Hypereutectic Piston W/Crank

http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...ctModelId=1674

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Sorry, can't help you. I don't condone that activity, and will not aid and abet those who participate in it.

Take it to the track, and you've got a deal.

poopapooman

cmon r u serious?

SpitotRs305

yep to many of our cars end up wrapped around a tree with some teenagers guts spilled all over the carpets.... you never get all of the blood out... i have tried...

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

How's the air up there on your high horse Tim?
Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? I find it *very* hard to believe you've never raced anyone on the street ever. Very hard to believe. Maybe it was a while ago, but it happened. This guy is at least honest with his intentions, while others here only allude to it.

poop guy - Keep all illegal activities to yourself. If you said that you were building the car for 50% 1/8th mile racing, and 50% street use, no one would bat an eye on here.

Keep your powerband lower, 1500-5000RPM range. That'll make it fun as far as torque goes. There's no law against getting up to the speed limit rapidly (assuming no tire smoke). Sinking back into the seat while on an on ramp is a very satisfying feeling.

el_muerte

... i'm sure he meant to say he WON'T race it on those 1/8 to 1/4 mile stretches on the streets and will only race in a safe manner at the local drag strip

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yep.
That's the altitude, not the horse.
Take it to the track.

poopapooman

if it makes u guys happier il say that i want to build my car for 8th to quarter mile drag racing on the track.

i dont understand why it upsets you guys. my fathers told me about certain roads back in the day that everybody hung out and raced. now u may say well things are different now. but really where i live they arnt. their is still old roads where nobody goes on and i only do straight streat racing so getting wrapped around trees is pretty easy to avoid and if i die at least i'll be doing something i like and helping reduce the us population problem.

One road at my fathers farm me and my brother raced dirtbikes vsdirtbikes, cars vs dirtbikes, cars vs cars. one day we kept racing for about 5 hrs in the same spot on the road. no one compplained and no cops came.

but i dont want to change this innto a street racing argument. if u guys insist then il change my post to say dragstrip racing.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It's illegal, it's dangerous, innocent people get hurt and worse, it casts a bad light on all of us, and it opens this Board up to liability.

Don't change your post. Change your activity.

I don't agree with it, but there is a street racing forum on this Board (along with "theoretical" racing). I've argued the case over and over, but that forum still lives. If you want to talk about street racing, go over there. The existence of that forum doesn't make it something I have to support, nor does it mean discussion of it belongs here.

And, for the record, my original statement was my viewpoint, not that of thirdgen.org. Note I didn't lock this thread (that's an "official" moderator action). I just said I'm not going to provide further personal assistance.

In case you didn't realize it, I could fulfill all of my moderator "duties" without posting any advice. The only posting I am obligated to is explaining my moderator actions. Any opinions or advice provided is purely my own, not that of thirdgen.org. In that sense, I'm just another member here.

A very opinionated one, but just another member. . .

poopapooman

i didnt mean to upset you and im 99.9 % sure that thirdgen.org would be held resonsible for a street racing accident.

also people get hurt when they try to race on winding roads at night. i would never race on a curvy road or a road that has a hill in which i cant see over.

i thought this forum would be better to get advice on building my engine im not sure if the streetracing forum would have a well experienced engine builder such as five7kid.

im not gonna quit street racing. i'll just have to try to build my engine with trial and error if noones gonna help me out.
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correction not held responsible for street racing accident

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not to worry, there are plenty more knowledgeable than me who will probably help you out.

Remember, I just said I wasn't going to.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You need to do some actual research on what it takes to come up with a good combination.

Stroking a shortblock out to a 383 isn't something you do if you're on a budget. Stroking it out to a 383 isnt something only street racers do either.

You knock on the right ideas but for all the wrong reasons. Just like stroking it so you'll win some silly street races. Take it to the track, if not, I can only hope that when you wrap yourself around a tree, you wont end up hurting anyone else.

You're going to have to make a decision: Fast. Reliable. Cheap. Pick 2 of those, and go on your way.

Just stick with the shortblock you've got now. If you want to make a "crate shortblock" to put your new heads etc on, then you can just as easily spend all the moeny to do that with a new core. Go find a 350 block, and everything else you'd have to end up buying anyway. Just salvage what you have for now, and then build up your new shortblock if that's what you want to do. Cores are cheap, and taking an old motor and stroking it requires a little machine work, and it's silly to build a whole new motor around a block that hasn't been freshened up in other areas already.

If you're gonna just rebuild the whole bottom end, you might as well bore it out enough to clean up the cylinder walls, hone it, align-hone it, and get new cam bearings installed if you decide you dont want to do that on your own. It aint cheap. We've all been there and done it. If you can get away with it, making your shortblock work for you is your best option. If you lose a bearing, then you should still be able to reuse your top end you already bought.

Buy some books. David Vizard is a good author. I disagree with some of the things he says, but for hte most part it's good stuff.

You cant just build a motor on a whim, you need to do a little research.

And if you want some cheap heads that will suffice, look into 083's.

poopapooman

i was thinking about buying some books but i wanted to see if i could get the information for free on the internet. plus i can ask direct questions for my specific application.

ive really been looking all over the internet for a website that that defines every thing, gives specific info on how you want to build your engine and that offers part substitutes that will usually improve the areas of either weight, performance, or strength or a combination of both or all 3. this is an example but lets forsay the differences between splayed, studded or standard main caps.

heres a theoretical question. since from what iv learned your engines better at high, middle or low rpm power based on the top end parts you use(heads, cam, intake......).

the lift in the camshaft you choose dictates high or low end rpm power. the larger the lift("large cam") the better the engine is for high end power and low end suffers. im not totally sure but duration usually goes hand in hand with lift. and im not sure at all about what lobe separation is better for bottom or top end power.

the smaller the intake and exaust ports on the heads and especially the intake manifold then the more low end power your engine will have because with larger ports the velocity is decreased. likewise larger ports are better for high end power.

so pretty much everything from the cam up dictates how your engine is gonna run(better for high end or better for bottom end power).

in my situation id wanna choose parts best for low end power,torque. (my engine would suffer ounce i got around 70-80 MPH though) but from recently learning about high stall converters is it possible to build an engine for high end power and use a high stall converter and still have good low end so my engine would pretty much have the "best of both worlds"? the downfalls i can think of with this approach is that if this was a street car id have horrible gas mileage because id always be launching (whether racing or not at around) 2-3 grand and that id spin my tires with the slightest touch of the gas.


I know it sounds like im jumping the gun but in the back of my head iv been planning on getting a lot of machine work done but iv been trying to get my part selection straight bc many have said that your engine has a much more better chance if your machinist knows which parts you are gonna be using. internalvortex: how much do you think everthing at the machine shop would cost( bore it out enough to clean up the cylinder walls, hone it, align-hone it, magnafluxing, balancing, and get new cam bearings installed?) there are two other things that i might need to get done that im not sure if my uncle and i or the machine shop would have to do: main cap studding and clearancing for the bigger crank and connecting rods.?


since im a noobie some of my statements could be wrong so correct me if iam.

SpitotRs305

realistically you wont need the main cap studs... dont even worry about that

yes you could do the clearancing for the stroker crank and rods it would be cheaper as the bottom end might need to be installed and disassembled a few times to get it right... it is almost impossible to get it right without the rotating assy. the machine shop would need that but really that is the onlything they need i mean you should have them measure and magnaflux the block first.... helps decide on if the block is worth it then you can choose your rotating assy. IE what over size pistons you will need along with the relief volume to achieve the proper Compression with your choosen CC head

for all the machine work you think you want to do you are looking at around $1000.... that is just for the block your heads might need to be assembled/moddified

so what you really need is: BOOKS but the RIGHT BOOKS... no racing engines/nascar none of that nonsense you need a book specifically for street engines that will help you understand that alot of the fancy stuff like cap studs... head studs, oil scrapers, oil restrictors arent neccesary and can even harm a street engine... while in a racing app where it might see 1 race or a couple of passes between rebuilds it isnt a problem

poopapooman

your probably right but r u sure main cap studs wouldnt be a good idea if im build a low end torquey engine. i thought low end torque might put a lot more stress on the studs than haveing a high reving top end engine

do you think my approach should be this? dissessemble the block and get it magnafluxed to at least see if the rebuild is worth it then see how much the cylinders need to be bored. then i think it would be a good idea to buy the bottom end parts(engine kit: pistons rings, rods, crank...) and have the machine shop then hone, align hone, possibly deck and possibly install main studs. i could now go on about the top end approach but i think thats getting to far ahead.

Their is a Napa machine shop near me. was just wondering if anyone has dealt with napa b4 w/ machine work?

im planning on going with the 383 kit from Northern Auto Parts:http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...ctModelId=1674

would this kit be good for a short block thats gonna be made into a low end torquey engine?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Find people in your area with experience with different machine shops. Their reputation means everything. You'll hear horror stories about every one, though, probably.

Dont buy a rotating assembly until you know how much it needs to be bored out. .010, 020 .030, .040, or .060. You'll need to know that so you can buy the right size pistons and then you'll be able to buy a kit that's already balanced.

Horsepower and torque are functions of each other. Horsepower is torque x RPM. Building your motor for torque will just get you basically a stock L98 kind of speed, which really isnt all that fast, despite gobs of torque. Just concentrate on making a car that has enough torque, as opposed to lots of torque. If you dont have the torque in the high RPMs to keep the car moving, then it's not going to be fast. If you get a reasonable cam, it should have good street manners and plenty of torque. It is, after all, an sbc.

poopapooman

i was kinda thinking that torque is what would get me a good 1/4 to eighth mile time which is usually about the same distances as the street races i do. what im trying to say is id rather have very good lowend decent mid end and bad high end power than to have decent low, mid, and top end power. i try to avoid highway racing as the illegal penalties can be more harsh than a "lets race to that tree down the road" race.

84Z28406

Wouldn't excellent low end with no high end be good only if your races took you to the top of first gear? After that, your shifts keep you high in the powerband. Guys with 1/4 mile experience please correct me if I'm wrong, but thats how I look at it.

SpitotRs305

horse power sells parts, torque wins races...

if you mainly plan on driving the car on the street then yes low to mid range power is what you want... and will get you respectable times... however high end power might get you the track times but wont make it useful on the street

and you still wont need those main cap studs i might suggest them if you were planning on oval track racing where the engine is going to spend alot of its life at or above 5500...

jay_d

cheapest way to do what you want would be.......new rings and bearings, decent cam....like a lunati voodoo or someting....double row timing advanced 4 degrees (that'll give you plenty of grunt off the line) Vortec heads with roller rockers....Performer RPM Intake with a 670 double pumper mech sec. holley if its a 5 speed......go with a 650 vacum sec. if its an auto....You can have all that for around 1200