Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

you guys are gonna love this!!!!

Yep, like the title says...the motor is gone and all I can do is laugh. THis has been th worse nightmare of a build...I just wanted a fast car to have fun on the weekends and had it for a few weekends but never raced anyone except for an 07 GT which I took care of. Anyways, I havent drove the car since Weds. cause of my trans overheating problem so I install the new trans cooler today and buttoned everything up and decided to take it to a shop that I knew the guys and where I always got my bottle filled and decided to do that and go ahead and put it on their dyno to see what Ive got before I have it dyno tuned. I start the car up and head out n Im thinkin "cool" cause the trans temp is way down....and then after about 3 miles I start hearing this rat tat tat sound so I stop and get gas and pop the hood and can hear it real good when I give it gas but doesnt do it at idle so I figured it would go away.....I just figured it was normal but then it got louder but only does it when I get on it and just certain RPM's and as im driving I check my oil pressure and notice that its bouncing from 40 to 80 like if someone was unplugin/plugin the sending unit then it goes back to normal 40psi while driving....I go about 15miles to the shop and shut it off..they havnt seen my car in a year and half since I blew the 160000 mile 305.....I ask them what they think it is and start the car...he told me more than likely its valve train and to go home and adjust my lash cause they may have come loose....then an other guy which I met 2 weeks ago pulls up and he seems to be pretty smart about motors from when I met/talked to him (he's got an S10 with an LT1 in it) anyways....he listens to it and I told him about the oil pressure freaking out on me and instantly says ROD BEARING OR WRIST PIN and the reason for the pressure spikes was because I was loosing pressure in that cylinder...an Im like...no freakin way???? and start cussin!!..he told me that I should tow it home and pull the motor....I told him I cant tow it that I have to drive it....he's say he's certain that it will be doing it at idle by the time I get home. The first guys says to adjust the lash before pulling the motor just to make sure.....SO I head home and baby it on the way and yes it was doing it at ilde by the time I got to the house..rat tat tat real loud.. I adjust the lash and found 2 to be out. I finish all of them and fire the motor and the sound it gone..Im like WHEW!!! the first guy was right.....its about 9:30pm by now so I head out after taking a shower to see what I can find on the roads...I drive and no noise. Then after about 10 miles I can hear the sound coming back I turn around and stop at a store and pop the hood and yep! the sound is there and loud so I head back to the house and can hear it getting louder and louder and at every stop I can hear it and when I took off it is now with all the RPM's....I pull it in the garage and pop the hood again to see and hear....the motor is toast!.....now the sound is very real and I can hear the loud rat-tat-tat and even a squeaking sound to go along with it like 2 pieces of metal grinding against eachother...Im thinking..I CANT BELIEVE THIS!..and start laughing!!!..

I took a video of it but cant post it cause it turned out to be 109megs avi and photobucket is limited to 100....what can I use to cut the video down so I can post it?

I want you guys to hear it!...Im pulling the motor this weekend AGAIN!!....and will have it back together in 2 weeks!!...damn all this!


now why would this happen? I drove it 600 miles with no problem to the beach last weekend.

What is it your thinking Im going to have to replace? and fix?

kdxrider9262

If you encode using this plugin
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/HuffYUV

It should cut your file size in almost half!

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

that doesnt work..it wont let me intall. there is no intall when I right click

Viprklr

iTrader: (5)

Wow that sucks. Pull it apart and let us know what you find. Right now it could be lots of things.

hgffrank

sounds like this engine is not even broke in yet, and you already mentioned a street race. this would be a good example of why to be easy on an engine till its thouroughly broken in. Not to mention a long trip at a steady rpm isnt the best thing for a new engine.

Guess you'll just have to tear her down and have a look see....and dont just replace the parts that are bad, you should do a basic rebuild while your there. If you just replace a bad part you will probably find yourself right in another bad situation again soon. Better off to rebuild it "again" and be on the safe side, or atleast do new bearings, and rings.

And make sure its broke in good before you go romping on it again.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

the wrist pin or rod bearing shouldn't have just "gone bad" that quickly. There must have been something that caused it. Junk in the oiling system, pick up fell off, those rod bolts got loose....
Yuck, I don't envy you one bit Well, tear it down and post pictures I guess, that's when it gets really interesting.

hgffrank

good point, and probably true.

327???

Being hard on it won't cause a rod bearing or a wrist pin to go bad that fast if it was machined and assembled correctly(and the oiling system is clean). If you do a search on breaking in procedure most people, myself included, say drive around the block a few times normally and check for leaks then romp on it. My motor saw 6k the first night it was on the road, ~25mi on it. 1k miles later and a bunch of passes and it doesn't use any oil or make any funny sounds.

Make sure you find out what caused it before putting it back in. Good luck.

You can edit video's with windows movie maker, it's pretty easy to use and you probably already have it.

hgffrank

Really, then why is it that new vehicles come with instructions not to exceed about 1/2 throttle, go over I think 55mph, or do any towing for the first 500 or so miles?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

i though the engine break-in cycle was like 3000rpm for 20 minutes or something like that.

the new car deal, i believe is more for the transmission break-in, which takes about 500-700 miles

327???

As a manufacturer would you rather have people beating on your cars for part of the warranty or for the whole thing? Also tolerances of mass produced engines aren't as precise as a hand built piece.

The 3000 for 20min is for a flat tappet cam and can be ignored with a roller.

Guest

Wasnt break in that was the problem, something else went wrong... just like everything else in that engine.

Might be an oil pump issue (which did you use, the new melling???) or some debris. Its possible it was something else if its a rod bearing like bad tolerances or loose bolts or some other weird anomaly but who knows at this point.

Toehead

There has always been the debate between the "drive it like you stile it" break in and the slow break in.

kdxrider9262

Sometimes it helps to read the directions :P

To install Huffyuv just download the zip file above, uncompress the files to a temporary directory, right-click on the huffyuv.inf file and select "Install." You can delete the files in the temporary directory after the installation completes (which takes only a fraction of a second). There should be no need to reboot.
If you're asked to insert a disk named "Huffyuv AVI lossless video codec," just click OK and select the appropriate directory if necessary.
To uninstall Huffyuv, use Add/Remove Programs in the Control Panel.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I broke it in just fine. I didnt have any problems with it. This started all of a sudden....the oil pump was brans new Select with brand new canton oil pick up and I lock tighted the bolts on so they would not have fell off. ..Some ****ing Moron told me to run 10w30 oil in it..would that have created a problem?

Im trying to cut this video down so I can post it, I just need to cut 9megs off of it...where in the hell does HuffyUV go once I intall it? also movie maker will not work.

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

I'm guessing the program folder, but did you try searching?

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

10w30 is fine....i broke my new engine on it and have been running fine for about 150 miles so far. Could be a bearings seized or something happened....did you plastic guage the bearings?

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ok here it is.....listen to the ticking or knock ..whatever you wanna call it...and listen for the squealing ...like metal gauling against eachother?..hell I dont know.

what is it? like I said I have already adjusted the rockers lastnight...I know its gonna have to come out, right?

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ever since I changed oil pump and oil..at startup my oil would be up to say 65psi and then once it got warm at idle at a stop light it would drop WAY down in the red....like 10psi why? but once going it would bounce up to say 40psi could the pump be bad? I had to correct oil amount in...I had an oversized filter that I put almost full quart and filled the pan with exactly 6 quarts like the pan called for.
oh and another thing..I dont care how many times I changed the oil or how many miles it had on it whether it be 40 miles or 500miles...when it came out it would be black as can be, couldnt even see thru it when I put it in a glass.

TeknoMaeg

That sucks... I would have to hear it in person to isolate where the sound is coming from but I would guess a bearing. Hopefully nothing too bad... I take it none of your pushrods were bent or broken and all rockers were still aligned?

But... to change to a lighter note... you ride is now dubbed "tweety"

Lots of blow-by??? what brand piston rings and sizes?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

oh man! i'm so sorry to hear this! i'm not sure why that happened but i hope everything turns out ok

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Pistons were KB Hyper-whatever 7cc flat tops...push rods where all fine and rockers were still aligned. ZERO blow by.

Yeah Tweety!..I hear ya! ..****er tweets like hell dont it?

what do you think that is?

kdxrider9262

dude that motor looks ****ing hot! I dunno what this kid is thinking its a bearing......never heard a bearing sound like that b4

Viprklr

iTrader: (5)

I don't believe the ticking to be a bearing either. Kinda sounds more valvetrain related.
Your tweet though is strange. Possibly just something loose in the engine compartment.
Grab a stethoscope and try to isolate the noises before you rip it apart. You may also want to pull the VC's and see if it's coming from an individual valve.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ive tried a stethoscope and cant find it. Why do you think its not a bearing? when most point to that or wrist pin?

I still have not removed the motor....I'll go out there and take a cold start video and see happens...

there is nothing to be loose in the engine compartment..not where there is metal to metal

2oldFbody

What do you have for rockers, stamped or roller? If stamped it
could be burned rocker ***** they make the squeaking sound when
galled.

84z28350

Ill also take a vote for it not being a bearing. Its just a light tick, sounds like a valvetrain tick...

Did you recheck the valve lashes? Maybe some of the studs are pulling out of the heads if they arent a thread in style...

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I completely disagree, The best way to break in a motor is to beat it to hell. You think race teams drive race cars 500 miles to break in motors?
----------


This guy is probably right.

Check the run on torque for the rocker nuts. Sounds like they are backing off, or you have a stud coming up. If you have bolt on studs check those too.

This same problem has happened to me. I thought it was bottom end and it was the valve train. It was loud too.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

remove the valve covers and start the motor, search for the noise there. Smack the moving rockers around with an extension or something to see which ones are insane loose if they do not rattle.

Guest

Thats valvetrain or a leaking exhaust gasket. Doesnt sound like a rod or a wrist pin, broke both of those before and that aint it. Not rod knock either, been there done that too.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I that's too light to be rod knock IMHO.
I'd also guess valve train. Remove the rocker covers and fire it up - plan on making a mess. You'll probably see something "amiss". If not, remove and check the rockers one at a time, count the turns it takes to remove a rocker nut, so you can put them back on easily. Check the rocker *****, check the pushrods, check the rocker where it meets the valve. Look for any strange wear. Guide plates? SA rockers? Check where the pushrods are riding.
The squeal could be anything. Partially seized accessory, crank scraping the oil pan, etc. Hmmm eh?


It's nice to get a whole lot of people saying "I highly doubt it's the expensive repair, that sounds more like the cheap repair". Kinda a nice feeling every once in a while...

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I have built several motors before, I have encountered all the problems. My first 305 I raced it and over revved the motor. The car had a rod knock. It was slight at idle, when you rev it you can feel it under your feet.

I drove it like that for a week.

I tore the motor apart, the rod ate through the bearing, and ate half the crank.

I feel this as valve train all the way. Valvetrain is the only thing I have experianced that was this loud especially at idle.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ok..Im heading out to remove the covers and fire it up ....and I will post a vid. I have CC's everything....push rods, hydro retro lifters, pro magnum rockers 1.52's with lock nuts and as far as the rocker studs, they are ARP thread in studs cause I had AFR upgrade them.

Yeah SONIX, your right!....im feeling alot better thinking its just on the top but that sqealing had me wondering......

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ok!>...I pulled the drivers cover off and started the motor up. I could stil hear it. All the rockers seems to look normal and were moving normally. So I got the stethoscope out and just started listening around the rockers and I could hear it under the drivers head. So I shut the car off and got the idea of removing the rockers and push rods from the area that I heard it. I took both the #7 ex/int rockers& rods out......I started the car and the noise was gone.
SO that means the valves on that cylinder were not opening and closing...so that where the noise is.
now what?

is it piston slap? or whatever you call it? or is it the lifters? how can I tell?

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

Take your belts off and eliminate the possibility of a power steering pump/alt. making the chirping noise. I agree with the rest though, the tick is in the valvetrain. If the accessories doesn't eliminate the chirping, might could be a valve guide but doubtful.

Oh, you did retorque the studs before you started adjusting the valves and line up the guideplates and everything corrected?

Ah...I see you just made another post.......

I would retorque the studs and try and realign the guideplates. Check the pushrods on a flat surface for true-ness by rolling them. Check your rockers and see if the bearings roll freely on the tip and fulcrum.

84z28350

hehe, did someone set a nut on the plenum during assembly and it found its way into the cylinder?... Wouldnt be the first time...

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

its in the number7 somewhere...cause I put 1 of the rockers back on and the noise came back. I tried each by theirself...not both int/exh at the same time. ..so its in the #7 cylinder.
Pushrods are straight and true....rockers look fine. stud looks fine guide plate looks fine.

now ofcourse the motor is not going to run right and start making other noises and missin cause of only hittin on 7 cylinders...

whats next?

matt_p

Could very well be lifters. Move the #7 lifters to a different cylinder and the others back and the reassemble #7 valve train and see if the noise moves or not.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

In order to re/re the lifters, he'd have to pull the intake. Save that for next.

Pull the pushrods, rocker *****, and rockers from #7, and put them on #3. Basically swap those parts from #3 to #7. Fire it back up, and see which one is making the noise.

If it's now #3, then you've gotta take a closer look at the pushrods, rockers, *****.

If it's still #7, pull the intake to check the lifters. Put a steel ruler across the valves to make sure the #7 ones are the same height as the rest. Try using a valve spring remover tool to push down on the springs, see if anything looks funny. Broken valve spring, etc.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

oh come on! thats easier said then done...That would mean remove the intake clean the RTV and then reseal it back up just to find out the problem moved and have to take it all back off again.. IF I take the intake off then I will just replace that set of retro lifters.

ok..I switched 5 and 7 and left the rockers off 5. THe noise is still on #7
I guess next step is to remove the intake huh? well atleast I dont have to drop the trans and remove the motor...whew!!!!....I would have gave up! So its more than likely lifters? and not deeper in like the cam? Im hoping too that its not the valves on the heads on #7

rockers off


rockers 5 and 7 switched

84z28350

You know what...

Since you will have 98% of the work done already, you may as well go ahead and pull the head off the block and get a good inspection of the valves/guides/springs and the piston.

Head gaskets are cheap, and just like you said up above, who wants to tear it apart a million times!

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

yeah but the head bolts are hard to get to and I seal the hell out of the head bolts too. Im about 90% ready to pull the intake. Let me pull it and see what I see...and I'll take vid and show you guys. Give me bout another 30mins.

that would really suck I pull it and find a bolt or some chit sittin in there....

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Maybe check the valve springs on #7 before pulling the intake.

RBob.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

how do I check the springs without pulling the intake? and what do I look for anyways?

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I think it is time to pull the intake manifold.

Make sure you take the pushrods from number 7 and you lay them against a straight edge and make sure they are not bent some how.

Drain the oil and check for metal shavings. If you have insane shavings then we know where to go from here.

Now, let's just hope it is a pissed off lifter.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ok intake is off and lifter is out. THAT WAS A PAIN IN THE ***, getting the lifter out cause I have the rev-kit on it...I will drain the oil too cause I want to put 15-50 wieght oit in anyways. 10-30 is just to thin for this motor and gives me NO oil pressure at idle.

Ok so what am I looking for? with the lifter, am I suppose to be able to push the plunger down inside the bore of the lifters? cause I cant at all!.....could they be stuck open or something?

SpitotRs305

you shouldnt really be able to move the plungers very far maybe a couple .001s with a pushrod if you pull the spark plug on 7 and shine a light into the intake port can you see any of the light in the cylinder?

BTW my new engine has the exact same tick as yours i mean exact

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

well I cant push the plunger in AT ALL!>....ZERO...does not move..I tried to force it down and it wont go. Its all the way up on the clip, both of them. SO im assuming they are stuck? would that create a low oil pressure reading on my gauge?

well I guess I call COMP tomorrow

SpitotRs305

i dont think that would change the guage at all if it did i would think you would get a higher reading but like i said it is very difficult to move even 200,000 mile old ones and you might not even see it move the really dont move a lot i wouldnt think that was the problem

think i see what might cause it... some of your lifters are in wrong i think there are arrows on the tie bars... those have to point up

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

nope there are not any arrows on te tie bars...they can only go in one way...think about it? how would I put them in any other way?. I know I should be able to move the plunger some...I was able to on a pair that I had to send back already before I even finished the motor. ..I think I might go pull a different pair just to prove myself right or wrong...they are just a PITA with the rev-kit

wait a min, come to think about it I remember when I was setting my lash just the other night, YES the plunger is suppose to move cause I remember pushing on the pushrod on some of them to make sure they were seated in the plunger and they moved down. so yes they are suppose to move. THis one must have been one I didnt check like that.