Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

if you was in my shoes, what would you guys do?...SO I basically need to take the short block to a machine shop and tell them to fix it? save the rod and turn the crank? Just tell them to make what I have fit right? ...how much do you think a shop will charge me? and will it be good as new even with the over sized bearing and such so everything fits? Will they also clean the block of all the metal in there? Can I reuse the head gaksets?
if I keep what I have will that be able to handle a 150shot? if that? I can see the cam lobes and they look to be ok. I was able to drag a razor over them and didnt catch on anything.

If you guys have been following my build since last year, remember I bought this block off ebay. Im sure everything was ok with the motor, they just ****ed it up putting the wrong oil pump with the VERY shallow pick up...

Guest

Fixing up what you have is fine. I've built quite a few motors and have a couple 'questionable' ones in use as far as how much machining has been done, and both those cars are beat on heavily (raced a lot) and they're both fine.

Definitely have them clean the block, hot tank it, new cam bearings, freeze plugs, and go from there. I hope the bores are ok, they look ok in one of the pictures you posted but as always, hard to tell from here. I'd mic that cam, and have someone else knowledgeable give you their 2 cents on its condition.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

That's rough man... I'm about to put together my first motor coming up soon and I'm hoping and hoping i dont come out with a scenario similar to yours here. The more I learn about this motor building business, the more I learn how many ways there are to do it the wrong way. Knowing what I know now, I'd do as much of it myself as possible.

It's just so easy to send $1000+ worth of fresh, usable parts to the trash with one small mistake.

Even though I know it's no solace to you right now, this thread has been very informative. A lot of people are going to learn a lot from it, I certainly did.

Just hang in there man, you'll get it going again. It will cost you, but Im sure you will. It just has to be so disheartening to see it come apart like this. Good luck man, we're all rooting for you.

Supervisor42

Unless you changed the dipstick or only put 5 quarts in when you filled it with oil, the pickup would have made no difference. Here's why:
With the oil level at the full mark on the dipstick, the amount of oil from the full mark down to the pickup would have been the same as every other engine regardless of how deep the sump was.
Unless the car was circle track raced where the forces pull the oil up the side of the pan, the pickup would have remained submerged just as deep as its stock counterpart.
My OHpinion on cause of failure: inadequate clearance in the bearings (too tight). The low oil pressure was a symptom of the bearings failing.
Suggestions: Pitch the gaskets and #7 rod, have the others resized. Get the crank turned and change every bearing in the engine.
The high volume oil pump is not needed and has had metal run thru it.
Do you still have the original that it replaced? It would be a better choice.
If you're sure you're going to run nitrous, spring for forged pistons. If a nitrous motor doesn't need them, then who does? They are going to get rattled eventually and we know hypers don't like that. I think you've pulled that engine out enough times, let's not add another one for broken ring lands on a hyper piston from nitrous.

Cobra289

I am sorry for you having seen the pictures.
Like others did advise you need to clean out the engine very well, but please ask the machine shop to remove oil block plug at the gallery and have then clean out with a rifle brush ALL THE GALLERIES.

One of the rods looks so dry! did it get oil? or you did it dried by your self.

Thanks for sharing your findings!
Good luck!

Regards,
Cobra289

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Since #'s 7 & 8 are the first in line to get oil, if it was an oil problem, the rest are probably toast, too.

Like others are saying, this requires a complete disassembly, cleaning, all parts checked and repaired/replaced as required, before anything goes back together. A bore brush cleaning (small brushes through all of the oil passages) would be a very good idea.

The crank and rods may be reusable after machining. Physical inspection with precision measuring equipment is the only way to know.

(By the way, when you turn the crank and put in bearings sized to match, they're "undersize", not oversize.)

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I dont want to use the oil pump that came with the motor. Its one of the bad casting Mellings pump...I'll just send the pump that I have and get a replacment pump if I can.
when I have the crank tuned and the rods rsized, will they have to balance the internals again? Why do you say trach the #7? and are you saying that I cant reuse the head gaskets?
Should I take the motor apart or let the machine shop do it?
got any idea at a price I may be looking at?

Im wondering if the tight wrong clearances in my bearing like you say would have cause the engine to run hot? cause from the very first start up the engine seemed extremly hot. and also when I first cranked the motor up for atleast the first maybe 25 miles and about 2 hrs run time the oil pressure was good and never went below 40psi....I have another thread around here asking questions about low oil pressure.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Very often with a truly spun bearing, too much material is removed from the rod & cap to allow resizing. So, a rod replacement is required.

At the very least, you're going to have to have all of the pistons removed from the rods for the resizing. Whether you save a little labor by having the machine shop disassemble it or do it yourself is between you and them. Be sure to mark the rods & caps for position. Rebalancing shouldn't be required except for replacing a rod - in that case, just have the replaced rod(s) weight balanced with the rest.

I can't say I remember all of the details of your build. Unless you used copper head gaskets, they will need to be replaced.

Rough estimate of prices, from what I recall from a couple of years ago: Turn crank, $150. Remove & install pistons, $50. Resize rods, $100-150. Tanking, cam bearing, galley & freeze plug replacement, $75-100. Balancing, probably $50-$200, depending upon what needs to be done.

Guest

Not necessarily material removal, but force on the big end of the rod distorting its shape to a larger size. With cap screws and threaded rods, hard to tell. The factory rods its easy to tell, the cap will be difficult to remove and usually becomes more difficult as it nears the ends of the bolts.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

so im looking at close to $1000 ? hell wouldnt it be almost cheaper to buy a new balanced stroker kit and be done with it? they usually come with new crank, rds, bearing, and pistons? I looked on ebay and did a search and Stroker kits seem to be around $700 or so. and then being new, wouldnt I be able to assemble it myself?....LOL...yeah right!!....

Apeiron

You could do that. I'll likely require clearance work on the block. Putting an engine together with new parts is actually somewhat more involved than putting it together with the parts you just took out, because there are fewer assumptions that can be made.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Why would the block have to be clearanced? it already was, arent all cranks and rods created equal? same size?


well I just disasembled the motor down to the short block.. I left the rods and all still asembled.
Heres a picture of the number 7 piston and head. I just need to remove the balancer and the timing cover/ timing gears and then Im going to pull the cam out and see what the lobes and bearing journals look like on that. Then Im going to go up the road and talk with a machine shp and ask then how much they would charge me to fix the short block.

#7 piston



#7 valves


#4,6,8 pistons


I dont know where the liquid came from. its not gas seems like water..maybe it leaked in there when I had the motor rolled upside down or something or NO I just thought of, maybe its the water that was left in the jackets on the head and it leaked in there.

Apeiron

Not even close.

Cobra289

I don't know! but something say to me that Piston #7 is not right.

Looking to the picture is has a round impression on it (top left) that doesn't belong to a piston.

The bottom side of the pictures it shows also a nice fluid clean part that isn't normal too.
Looks like the gasket was blown long time ago and did left some spots at the piston.
The head is OK from this distance but it shows also a deformation of the gasket and probably during installation. Look to the bottom bolt (at the picture) the marks left by the head gasket.

Regards,
Cobra289

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I just went out there and looked atthe #7 piston. there is no impression on it from the valve...it must just be the lighting but yeah, there is that one spot that is completly clean all the rest of the piston has that carbon build up except that one place....whys that?

Cobra289

Check the pictures with the mark-up's

Ask others for their experiences on this but from here I can say that is not normal the clean spot and the dot shaped thing.

Probably this was the start of the problems.

Regards,
Cobra289

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

the clean spot is where the piston was slapping the head, same thing happened on my brother's motor.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

ah...yes I can see now where the head imprint is on the piston. Im assuming that because of the #7 bearing being gone and allowing for the extra travel? SO the piston is OK, right? doesnt looked damged at all just clean on that spot.

and as far as the head gasket imprint, I dont get it? I dont understand what your talking about

oh and hey, that top left mark on the piston is where, I touched it...if you could zoom close enough you would have my finger print!...LOL

Cobra289

OK! I see.
Once the bearing goat the play the piston was kissing the head and the shape match the head combustion chamber.

Regards,
Cobra289

Cobra289

Looks good!
Sorry for the imprint, I though that the bolt was pushed thought the gasket and did shifted the gasket.
But looking in more detail it seams to be OK.
I think that your finger touch did misleading me in this case. Sorry for that.
Don't want to introduce problems!

Regards,
Cobra289

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

LOL..I hear ya, I dont need anymore bad news. I'll tell ya what, Im glad I didnt put the intake back on and just fire it up cause I may have done worse than there already is. SOmething told me to just pull the motor! but I was oping it was just the lifters. the lifters were probably good but oh well I got new ones to replace thanks to comp replacing them.

Apeiron

That bearing would have to be way gone for that to happen, assuming the engine was built with proper clearances to begin with.

As cheap as pistons are, I wouldn't reuse it.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I just talked to a place and heres what they told me.
I disasemble the block and mark everything where it came from. What I'll do is remove it all and lightly assemble it and put it in a box that way everything will be like it was when removed.
Bring them the block and box of rods, crank, pistons and caps.
They will clean the block and do new freeze plugs, cam bearing, rod bearing and resize what rods need it and resize what bearing need it. THey told me that if it was balanced before that it should not need it again..it might change it just a little cause replacing the bearing with undersized would esensially put back what was removed but if I wanted it balanced that would be extra.
without the balancing I would get the block back with everything the way it should be as long as no rods need replacing....ruff estimate $250 should be less.


Does that sound like deal? now if I got the balancing which I'll probalby do that would be extra

She, (YES SHE) told me that putting it back together is a piece of cake. THe clearances should be fine when I get it all back from them cause they do that all there.


there was more talked about but thats the main part.

SHe also told me that the problem was more than likly the oil pick being that far off the bottom of the pan is what started the heat! and my sudden oil pressure drop after about 100 miles is proof of that.

Cobra289

If she is the seller, she is a good one, if she is the mechanic it would be a better one.
Womans are more detailed than men and goat more patient with small details than we have.

About the price, I can't give any advice because here in The Netherlands that price would be almost for free.
We are just used to pay 4 times that price.

Good luck!
Regards,
Cobra289

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

hey yo,
I was just wondering with my spun bearings and I guess the little bit of piston slap that I was getting and low oil perssure, how did that effect performance? what kind of loss what I suffering? what did it make my motor do or not do?

SpitotRs305

probably alot more than you would guess

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

oh come on ..that doesnt tell me a whole lot.

85z28guy

That price would be very reasonable for around here. Only suggestion I'd have is to give them the cam and timing set and let them assemlbe your shortblock. Worth the little bit lighter wallet imho

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I asked that but she said that they are so backed up that it would take months to get to. Said that when I get everything back it would be ready to assemble, I dont have a problem putting the cam in and degreeing it. I use the lift at TDC method cause thats what the cam guy says to use with his cams and with my adjustable timing set I can get it dead on or advance it or retard it if I wanted to.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i would not trust that piston, its cheap to replace now, if it turns loose it'll trash the block & probably the crank, & maybe even the cam, the head won't be too happy about it either.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

what do you mean turn loose? wont the machine shop be able to tell if there is a problem with it? when they remove the wrist pin wont they know?
how do I tell what kind of wrist pins do I have?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

They're only going to turn the crank journals that "need" it?

The piston ring land could have been damaged when it kissed the head. Might be able to "inspect" that, but like said, now's the time to replace anything that is questionable.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

nah, they will polish all of them but I guess turn only those that need it? hell I dont know. I pulled the hwole short block apart and Im strippin all the paint off and I pressure washed it..so I can repaint the block when I get it back.

Here's a good idea, I used pepsi 2liter crates to hold my pistons they are perfect size and hold all eight. ...I just marks the out of the crate...but I need to find some way to mark the oily pistion, get any ideas?

do they need to old bearings? I assume not, right?

I cant find any marking on my rods or my crank. How can I tell what kind they are?

Guest

Dont let them mix+match your bearing sizes, if one needs cut, cut them all the same. I've seen quite a few lower end shops and budget builds do that, dont do it.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

whys that? for instance if only 2 need resizing then why cut them all?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

they probably mean they won't turn down the mains if none of them need it, only the rod journals. Of the two, mains and rods, they'll turn down the ones that need it (meaning either just the mains, just the rods, or everything, or nothing).

they probably won't take your word for which ones you think are messed up and will just check both for themselves.

Apeiron

So that all the journals are clean and sized the same so you don't need to mix and match bearing sizes for individual journals.
----------
You should still number the rods and pistons.

Supervisor42

Every journal will need to be turned. Two reasons: 1. run with low oil pressure destroying the finish.
2. probably were incorrect size (too tight) causing this failure.
Once the crank is set up in the machine to turn one journal, doing the others doesn't take that much more time.
The rod caps need to be match marked to it's rod and cylinder number so the caps don't get switched on the rod and the rod doesn't get put in the wrong hole.
Why worry about the #7 piston? I thought you were thinking of switching to forged?
If you have to change the #7 rod and piston, it's going to have to be rebalanced anyway.
I'm very skeptical about the $250. That would get the crank turned and the rods resized.
Cam bearings take an hour to pull and reinstall by themselves. Hot-tank the block and hone cylinders, an hour. Assemble short block 2.5 if it's not plastigaged.
I honestly think you'd stand a better chance getting a .40 caliber and .22 caliber gun cleaning brush from Walmart, cleaning the passages and let us step-by-step you putting in a rotating assembly.
Since I'm being Mr. gloom&doom here, I think the cam and cam bearings are probably fine. You shouldn't need to do anything to them unless you hot-tank the block...

Apeiron

Cam bearings aren't an hour to install, they're about 5 minutes max. when the block is apart. They're going to have to be removed to properly clean the block anyway, and they cost all of $15. Just replace them.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

when i say turn loose, i mean come apart, break into pieces, something thats not good.
besides the ring land, the piston was cocked in the cylinder when it hit the head, the skirt could be cracked. or the wrist pin hole could be hurt. in my opinion, its not worth taking the chance.

i agree with rifle brushing all of the oil passages. i would also wash everything at least once with hot soapy water after i got it back from the shop. it can't be too clean, i even disassemble & clean brand new oil pumps before i put them in.

Viprklr

iTrader: (5)

Definitely wash the block when you get it back from the shop.
When it comes to marking the components, I just clean the oil off of a spot and use a sharpie marker. Works like a charm.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

That $250 give or take was to do the rods and turn the crank and the freeze plugs and cam bearings....I have to dis-asemble the block and then I have to put it back together. what is cylinder honing and do I need it? THe walls look great no marking in there at all.
OK, what do I tell them I want done to the block?

I cleaned the block with my pressure washer today and stripped all the old paint off the block too. I cleaned everything , sprayed all inside the water pump holes. I didnt remove the freez plugs though, should I?
I then lightly oiled the cylinder walls and the crank journals and such...so it wouldnt rust or anything.

I marked all the pistons, rods and caps. How can I tell what rods I have? all they have on the rod is an "ES". I know my pistons are KB 122's

Cobra289

Hi,
Don't for get to put some pressurized oil WD40 will do the job at the CAM bearings.
Use the hole at the crank bearing support to get this channel full with oil and get rid of the water that you did spray.

Others you will need to put new CAM bearings.
DO it before it get the change to get rust!
Dry every threaded hole and spray WD40 to all the holes and threaded holes.

Regards,
Cobra289

Apeiron

Bearing faces don't rust.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I cant understand a thing he just wrote..sorry!...I did all this before it goes to the machine shop. ALl the bearing will get changed. THey are still going to clean it and then do the bearing ...wont they do all that before I get it back? I mean if there are a good shop they surely wont give a dry block that could rust,,huh?

Cobra289

I hear you! I don't mean that, I am more concern about the engine block oil passage from crank to CAM bearing.
If the passage get rusty you will introduce it at the CAM bearings and destroy it very fast.

Regards,
Cobra289
----------
I am sorry for my bad English.

If they do all the bearings and clean it, you don't have to worry.
Again my excuses.

Regards,
Cobra289

Apeiron

Any rust that formed in the oil passages in such a short time would be very minimal surface rust, and wouldn't pose any problem.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Hey yo guys its me again,
m taking the rotating assembly tomorrow to the shop. I also found out that I have a forged crank 4340 and forged rods 5240's which I already knew about the rods. My whole assembly wieghs only 70lbs. I am really hoping I did not screw up the 7 and 8 rod journals.

I went and talked the shop and they will knock out the oil galley plugs, clean the block, turn the crank (if it can be) resize the rods, replace cam bearings and replace bearings and check my clearances on the the mains.

She told me that shes hoping I didnt mess the 7,8 rod journals up to much to be turned.
The 7 spun and the 8 didnt but there is a difference between the two journals cause I can feel it.
I used a feeling gauge to see how much it took the make the difference up and it took a .010 gauge. +/- Will I be ok? do they make bearing big enough to make this crank work? I do not have the money to fork over for a new crank let alone a forged crank.

Apeiron

The cost of a new cast crank isn't much more than the cost of having all the journals ground.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

yes true...but why would I want to replace with cast when I have forged which cost WAY more?
I wold much rather keep what I have and have it turned cause what I have is balanced.

I guess they would polish the #7 and grind all the other journals down about ..010 or so but yeah then all the rods would have to be reized up to that too.