92HeritageT~Top

I apologize ahead of time for the long post, but PLEASE read

So I've had an intermittent problem with my car...every once in a while I tried to start my car and nothing would happen. Id wait 5 minutes...my VATS would reset and off I'd go.

A common problem, a pain in the . But not that big of a deal. It barely ever happened.

All of a sudden it won't start at all. No good.

So I thought it was my VATS because the starter doesn't try to engage at all. I got a volt-ohm meter, read the resistance on my key, and tapped a resistor into the wires under my dash. Bingo...thinks the key is there all the time problem solved right...wrong.

Didn't fix it.

So I thought about it and realized my fuel pump was coming on when I turned the key...so that means it's not VATS right?... So I dropped the steering column and replaced the Ignition swith on top of it, thinking that could solve the problem. But nope...still no start. Nothing.

Whenever I turn the key from "Run" to "Start"...my temperature gauge gets a fire under its a*S and shoots all the way to the right. And stays there. Weird. And the only sound that I can hear is a small clicking under the dash somewhere to the left...possibly around the fuse panel or kick panel...any ideas what this could be?! VATS module? I dunno...

I thought maybe its the clutch safety switch that went bad because its a manual car...but there's not really a switch to go faulty on these cars is there? Isn't it just a single connection that is made whenever you suppress the clutch? Needless to say I'll check that this evening to be sure it's getting a good connection.

I'm stumped...please help me out guys...I really don't want to have to trace wires...

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

There is a clutch switch. Pull the switch off the top of the clutch pedal and put a paperclip in the connector to short it out. If it fires then there you go.

If not we move on.

You are just not getting spark. There are countless things. Coil, ECM, yada yada. Could be vats, but it can be bypassed.

SpitotRs305

yeah the neutral saftey switch on my clutch is funny sometimes it starts first try others it will click 4 or 5 times before i get the clutch in the right spot then bingo!

sc02t

i have the same problem. the same thing happened to me before, where it would not start all of the time. it would just click and then nothing. but i would not have to wait at all, i would just keep trying it and after a few tries, it would start just fine. mine is not a manual though. i thought that it was the vats as well but i didn't know that the vats disables the fuel pump. does it? i can hear the pump kicking on but the starter won't turn. i hear the same clicking sound under the dash. please help me! it is about 10 degrees outside with a wind chill into the negative digits, and i don't want to be out there all day trying to figure it out. PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!

SpitotRs305

sounds like you have a shift linkage problem

huh this went to the wrong topic... odd

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

With a T5? I doubt it.

92HeritageT~Top

No it's nothing to do with shift linkage. I did a bit of serching and found out that the starter relay is actually under the dash behind the left kick panel. Now...I want to know whe the engineer was who got a thumb up his butt and decided to put it there...instead of the engine compartment like 99% of all cars...

But thats not it...I checked it. The only thing left that I could think it could be is the clutch safety switch...tonight I'll pull up the couch pillows, find a paperclip, take your advice nelapse, and see if I can bypass it...

sc02t
Check your starter relay under your left kick panel. It's a little black box that should have 4 wires going into it. take a piece of wire and jump the terminals in the switch. If your starter turns over whenever you do that, then there is your problem...didn't help with mine though...

Also...think about your neutral safety switch. A little different than my clutch switch but the same purpose...its stops you from starting your car unless it is in Park. Id do a little searching before I pulled my dash apart though...

Is there any way I could troubleshoot this from one location? Say from the ECM?
----------
Does anyone know if VATS does in fact disable the fuel pump?! If not...then that could still be the problem...

sc02t

i'll check the relay. i talked to my mechanic and he said that he thought that the vats disabled the starter relay and the fuel pump relay. but i can hear the pump kicking on so unless he is wrong, that could not be the problem. which two wires do i jump for the starter enable relay? i know how to check the park/neutral safty switch, it's the one just underneth the console right?





if this is the one your talking about i have two big yellow wires, a big green one and a small green one. which two? if this is not the right one then let me know.

can i swap another relay with this one to test? are all relays the same?

19RS92

When I had VATS problems the car turned over! It even got its initial fule shot from the injectors VATS doesn't shut off your starter or fuel pump. It shuts down the injectors.

92HeritageT~Top

VATS DOES shut down your starter. But not your fuel pump. If your car was turning over then it shouldnt have been a problem with your VATS. Here's how it works...

"System Operation"
"When the system is operating in normal mode, the VATS decoder reads the correct resistance during cranking. The module grounds the Start Enable Relay coil. When the start enable relay contacts close, voltage is allowed to the "S" terminal of the starter. The VATS module also sends an enable signal to the ECM. This signal allows the ECM to operate the fuel injectors during cranking. The SECURITY light will also illuminate for approximately five seconds, then turn off and remain off."

So basically whenever VATS reads the wrong resistance, it disables the starter relay by denying it a ground. If you can jump the wires at the relay and your starter engages, the relay is fine. If it does not turn over then either the relay is bad or there is a problem between your battery and the starter.

Take a volt-ohm meter and see which wire has voltage. should be 12v or close. My wiring is a different color but I believe it should be the two yellow wires...
----------
Not sure where your neutral safety switch is though...

sc02t

ok get this, i think i've fixed mine. i pulled back the relay and tested all the wires. when the key is truned i am getting power from both yellow wires, but not the big green wire. that should mean that it is the relay that is the problem right? acording to this diagram: the yellow is coming fron the key tumbler and if the vats approves it send power through the green wire to the park/neutral safty switch and then on to the starter, right? that's the way i read it. so since i'e got power to the yellow wires, i know that the tumber is working, and since i hear the fuel pump kicking on, i know that the vats is not the problem. right? i'm going to go and get the new relay in a litle bi and i'll let you guys know if that is the problem.

scott

oh yeah, mine was not turning over at all, just that click sound from under the dash.

sc02t

i called the guy at the dealership and he said that he has never sold one of those parts, so he does not think that that is my problem. if the vats DOES disable the fuel pump, then what the hell is going on with my car!! i have power going into the relay but nothing going back out of it. GREMLINS!!!!

92HeritageT~Top

Haha...from what I can tell man VATS does NOT disable your fuel pump...It stops your starter from being able to get voltage, and it disables your fuel injectors...

DarksAlphas

I had a similar problem in my 92. It started as just an intermitant problem, then it was everyday. I would trun the key, and nothing... I would have to wait 8 minutes and try again.l After the 8 min it would start. It turned out to be the ignition cylinder. It was not reading the chip in the key properly. Once the ignition cylinder was replaced, I havn't had any problems since.

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

I had a problem with my VATS once, and posted about it a while back.
It shuts down the starter and the injectors. I ripped out the VATS module, bypassed the starter relay. That let it turn over (attempt to start). To get signal to the injectors I was forced to buy the software to burn my own chip to disable the VATS in the ECM. Car worked perfect after that.

HOWEVER. In NONE of that time did I ever hear click(s) under the dash. SO, your problem MAY not be related to VATS. I don't recall the way I tested the "system" to determine it was VATS. I'll get out my GM book this weekend and see if I can add anything else.

Hope this helps.

sc02t

alright i finally figured it out. i hope. so this is what i did: i went back out to check all three of the wires going into the relay. now only one of the yellow wires is coming on. so i get the bright idea of cutting both of the wires and using the one that works to power both of them just to see if that makes it work. after i cut both of the yellow wires, i forgot which one was the one that worked. after testing both of them, i find out that now both of them work. so i loosely attach everything back together and test the green one. it works now. it would have been nice to know that BEFORE i started cutting wires! so now i realized that i don't have any connectors to reattach all the wires. i tried to taped them temporaraly, but that didn't hold. so now i have both wires zip tied so i can continue testing. next stop, shifter. i remove all the screws holding the shifter plate and when i pick it up, the front corner breaks off because it hits the cd player (and probly because it is only about 15 degrees outside). so now i have to remove the stereo to get to the park/neutral safty switch, great! stereo comes out and i check the wires, green wire still has power, and the purple wire that comes out (and later to the starter) has power too. wo woo. so now i'm realy feeling like an ***. the reason i didn't check the starter in the first place it because it is such a pain to get to. why is it such a pain? because the car sits so low that i can't get a jack under it to get it off the ground. usually i have to drive it up on to the ramps in order to get high enough to get the jack under it. did i mention that it is still 15 degrees? i do have the jack in the hatch to use, but i have to take out all of my stereo stuff to get to it. so i unplug the fuse under the hood, then all ot the wires on the amp, and finally the box comes out. i get the jack out and get it under the corner of the car. i get the car up high enough to get the craftsman under the front cross member, and up gos the car. i get my son to sit inside and turn the key. nothing. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what the f*#@!!!!!!!! i go back under the dash and check the relay again, light comes on, and then immediatly gos out again. the problem? my test light bulb it going out!!!!!! all that trouble and it is not my car that is giving me problems, it is my light!!!!! after i put a new bulb in i find out that the problem is the starter. all that for the starter. i'm going to take the starter off my parts car tomorrow and i'll let you know. the temp has gone up though, it is now 17 drgrees.

hey 92HeritageT~Top did you figure out your gremlin?

92HeritageT~Top

K. Figured it out guys. Got out there with a test light and a volt-ohm meter and traced the entire starting circut. Finally found a break in the wire (bad wire no outside damage that could be seen) going from the starter switch on top of the steering column to the starter relay. replaced that wire and problem solved! Car starts like new, and the VATS pellet is bypassed...WOOHOO!!

Thanks for all your help guys.