17camaro83

hi everybody,

I have a 90 camaro rs 5.0 TBI and it died back in september, before it died it acted like it had a vacuum leak and it gave us codes 32 and 44. I took out the old egr, cleaned it thoroughly and reinstalled it but nothing, the car turns on and Instantly turns right back off. It sounds like a large vacuum leak coming from the TBI, before all this we installed an open element filter, it's unusual because the sound of the intake really is loud, louder than the engine. I installed a brand new EGR valve today but no difference, it just idled about 1-2 seconds longer then died. Could it be the egr vacuum solienoid??

Any comment will be appreciated. Schools about to start and I would like to have this car running by then.
Thanks everbody

ResurrectingZ

Intake is sounding really loud? I bet you have a gasket that is out. Either the intake manifold gasket or the TBI gasket. The EGR would only put the exhaust back into the system to cool down the cyclinder temps. If it was replaced and a new gasket put back on, I wouldn't worry about it being the EGR then. Anything else done to it?

Also the EGR solenoid wouldn't play any part of your current problem. It will just sit there til it goes into closed loop (as far as I know) once the motor warms up to operating temp.

17camaro83

could it be the MAP sensor or the Idle Air Control? As I said the engine turns on then it just dies, when I try to pump the gas it either dies instantly or stumbles a little while dying rapidly.

17camaro83

anybody???

SpitotRs305

when you start it does the security light remain on or does it shut off?
try taking off the air filter does the noise from the TB get louder or stay the same open air elements are much louder than the regular ones can hear mine sucking over my exhaust...

kenf729

iTrader: (3)

just wondering if the vacuum line that goes to the break canister has come loose, this would give you excess vacuum noise? possably make it run bad...

17camaro83

Where is the break canister? I looked at every vacuum line and nothing seems loose. Code 34 says it could also be the MAP sensor, I found one for 10 bucks new and I"m waiting to get it to install it. I replaced the egr valve, I don't know what else to think, I don't want to spend like 300 dollars taking it to a shop and have it be like a 20 dollar sensor. I noticed the shop that I had the exhaust installed didn't close shut the copper like tube that comes out of the catalytic converter, I used heavy duty duck tape to block it but no differance.

SpitotRs305

the only vacuum line for the brake system that i could see making that much noise would be the one on the driverside of the intake just below the TB but your power brakes would be non existant...and the copper tube off the cat is a air line off the AIR pump duct tape will be useless just cut the line back to 4-5 inches and crimp it.


but yes it could be any number of things IAC valve is possible i recommend removing the TB to clean it dont use any solvents on the pintle of the IAC use a soft tooth brush no wire brushes either make sure to clean the spring also then use TB cleaner in the Iac passage till it is sparkly re assemble..btw if you try and push the pintle in it will be very difficult which is normal.

i am pretty sure that if it was MAP sensor that the car would still run ok not the best but would run...

there is no vacum canister in the 90 rs there is the power brake booster only
and i told you how to find the vacum source for that already

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

with what your saying & a code 44 on a TBI, that tells me to check the fuel pressure.
it must be at least 9 pounds, anything less & it won't run very good, even at 9~10 it won't run as good as it should, down around 6 it may not start.
normally you'll see around 11 to 13 pounds on a good running TBI car.


code 32 means the EGR system isn't working right, could be the EGR valve, EGR solenoid, vacuum hoses for the EGR, or the passages in the intake are clogged up

17camaro83

Can someone please explain to me how I can check the fuel pressure? step by step. do I have to buy a fuel pressure guage and if so where do I hook it up and how do I hook it up, what psi should I be reading, 9-10 or 42-48 psi. Any help is greatly appreciated. thanks

MavViper

iTrader: (1)

It's a TBI so it should be between 9 and 14 psi. You disconnect the fuel line going into the throttle body and hook up the fuel pressure line and guage. First ya prime her to see how much pressure it has, then crank it to see if it remains steady.

I think you can rent them but I know around here, they cost bout $40 and there is no place to rent them.

SpitotRs305

yes okay 44 means lean exhaust that doesnt strictly mean low fuel pressure could be a bad O2 sensor could have a leaking gasket could be a clogged fuel filter could also be the flux capacitor

17camaro83

the flux capacitor OF COURSE!!! I can't believe I missed that. I replaced the fuel filter already, the 02 sensor has to reach 600 degrees for it to get a good reading, the car doesn't even get that hot, it turns on for ... 2 maybe 3 seconds. I'm completely lost, I'm just gonna have to take it to the shop next week ow............ my pride.......

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

SpitotRs305, if it was starting ok then a bad O2 is very possible for the 44, but a bad O2 sensor won't cause the problem he is having, he may very well have a bad o2, but with the codes & symptoms the next thing to check is fuel pressure.

17camaro83, to check the fuel pressure, you will need a fuel pressure gage & an adapter for GM TBI.
some gage kits are setup to tap into the pressure line at the throttle body, others the adapter replaces the fuel filter. the hose on the pressure gage needs to be long enough so you can put the gage where you can see it when you start the motor.

17camaro83

Hey everybody ok I finally got a fuel pressure guage and I hooked it up. upon priming the fuel pressure reads 1. yep... 1 psi and upon cranking it goes up and down between 1 and 0 psi. I connected the fuel pressure guage on the top fuel line. what do you guys think?

bobdole369

Fuel pump? (and associated fuel pump relay)

Out of gas?

Blockage in the lines, binding somewhere (I ran over a standpipe in a mercury once and the fuel line happened to kink. Drove me nuts)

I'm assuming you would notice a puddle of fuel on the ground (at least I hope you would), so I wouldn't think a hole in the fuel line is to blame.

Did you perhaps put the fuel filter on backwards?

When that huge brake booster line (garden hose size vacuum line going to the large round deal almost directly in front of the driver up against the top of the firewall) is off, it makes a terrific sucking sound and the motor lasts about 3 seconds before turning right off. Its incredibly easy to knock off by accident and not realize it.

Also an open element air filter will make significantly more noise than stock. On my lowly V6 the K&N I put on makes a nice hissing sound when I rev it that I can hear over the motor.

Neither code 32, nor code 44 should prevent your car from starting. You've got it pegged with fuel pressure I think. Now for WHY you have no fuel pressure.

Remember that you have an oil pressure switch that will cut off the fuel pump if you have no oil pressure within a few seconds of cranking...

Also you have the relay on the far driver side on the firewall that runs the fuel pump.

SpitotRs305

are you sure you hooked the gage up to the correct fuel line?

17camaro83

yes I am sure its the right fuel line, its the thick 3/8 line that is on the front drivers side part of the engine.

SpitotRs305

so you didnt hook it up to the fuel line behind the TBI?

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

your on the right line.
did you T into the fuel line with a fitting & still have fuel going to the TBI, or do you have the gage hooked up to the line so no fuel can go to the TBI?

like bobdole369 asked, you do have gas in it, right?
have you replaced the fuel filter & it is on right sense this happened?

MavViper

iTrader: (1)

ok, with no fuel whatsoever it isolates the problem drastically. It's not the oil pressure sending unit. Double check to make sure you put the fuel filter on the right way. Also what I would do is disconnect the fuel line where you did before (when you went to test the pressure) and then disconnect the fuel filter. Blow compressed air through the fuel line to make sure there are no blockages.

One thing you haven't mentioned is whether or not you hear your fuel pump running. If you do, I can gurantee that it is the piece of tubing inside the tank that connects the fuel pump to the fuel line inside the tank.

17camaro83

ok heres the deal, I looked under the carpet and the previous owner cut out a hole and the fuel pump is right there I cut the lines and am replacing them with rubber hoses, the fuel pump would make noise when the key was turned to the on position. now when I pulled out the fuel pump the rubber hose that connects the actual pump to the fuel lines the thing looked and felt melted, it litterally rubbed off on my hands. so I'm in the process of putting the fuel pump with the new strainer in, i should be done tomorrow. the fuel filter is on right btw.
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ok heres the deal, I looked under the carpet and the previous owner cut out a hole and the fuel pump is right there I cut the lines and am replacing them with rubber hoses, the fuel pump would make noise when the key was turned to the on position. now when I pulled out the fuel pump the rubber hose that connects the actual pump to the fuel lines the thing looked and felt melted, it litterally rubbed off on my hands. so I'm in the process of putting the new fuel pump with the new strainer in, i should be done tomorrow. the fuel filter is on right btw.
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what the?? it posted it twice?

MavViper

iTrader: (1)

That's definately your problem them there. And you are lucky the previous owner cut that access hole, it's a pita to do it the other way.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

if your going to patch the lines back together with rubber hose. DO NOT use regular fuel hose on the high pressure side, get some fuel injection hose. regular fuel hose isn't rated for very much pressure & will not last, it could burst at any time which would be very bad. also, double clamp the pressure hose, put the clamps on so the screws are opposite of each other.

bobdole369

Holy crap I just had a terrible vision......

fuel spraying off the top of the fuel tank and igniting on the hot muffler, leaving a 70mph trail of fire for a while, until just the right moment.... BOOOOOOOOOOSH....

Yippie-Kay-Yay Mother F**er......

Its that movie thats made me paranoid about anything fuel related.

17camaro83

I thought the TBI fuel pump only put out 14psi thats really not that high pressure compared to the 42 the TPIs put out.

ResurrectingZ

I wouldn't want 1psi of fuel leaking out of the top of my tank, disaster waiting to happen. Just do it correctly so you dont have a repeat.

17camaro83

Hey everybody great news, I finished replacing the fuel pump and the car turns on and stays on so thats great news, at first though it didn't want to start so I dumped alittle bit of fuel into the intake right under the injectors and it fired right up. the fuel pressure is steady at about 12 -13.

Now for the lingering old problem, upon accelerating normally when you push the pedal more than 1/4 of the way the engine stalls. And sometimes the idle goes up and down, up and down for about 10 - 15 seconds and then it steadies out. I replaced the EGR valve and the MAP sensor a few weeks ago while it was still not running.

any ideas? Idle Air Control??? or maybe the Throttle Position Sensor?? Also the "Service Engine Soon" comes on and off while driving. It will be off then come on for a few minutes then shut off again. I tried getting the codes but it didn't blink, I will try again later and post them.

Also when I first started to drive it, it stalled out in drive and the only way to move it was to go to 1st gear then 2nd and stay there. After it warmed up then it didn't stall on drive. unless you pushed the petal more than 1/4 way down.

Any help is appreciated, thanks for all the advice you guys have given me.

bobdole369

Sounds like a vacuum leak - I know you said you looked at it, but make sure you have a vac diagram for your year and motor - check EVERYTHING - again, both that its hooked up and that its not leaking... Vacuum leaks are so annoying and hard to find. My most recent one was a check valve. The nipple was cracked inside the rubber hose and looked fine until I tugged on it and it came apart.

17camaro83

hey whats up guys another question, the camaro won't start unless I dump a little gas down the tbi, any reason for this? it's got good fuel pressure, could I have bad injectors??

ResurrectingZ

Did you already replace the fuel filter? Sounds like you may still be having problems with your fuel system. Try disconnecting the line from the fuel filter to the TBI and blow some compressed air through it, and replace the filter. Don't know if blowing from the fuel filter to the tank would hurt the fuel pump, so I can't suggest it unless otherwise. Wouldn't hurt to use a little injector cleaner, seafoam works wonders with injectors.

Also if you want to check whether its a vacuum leak, plug off the hose leading to the check valve; that way you can run it without all the hassle of replacing all the vacuum hoses to find your still where you started. Check the vacuum line to the brake booster and the PVC valve.

17camaro83

where is the check valve located?

ResurrectingZ

It is towards the back of the motor by the distributor, there is a hard plastic tube going into the cab and another rubber vacuum line going to the front of the car, usually on the driver side. Real easy to spot, and if you are having trouble just follow the vacuum line from the back of the TBI and it comes into a small plastic piece that looks like a L on the end as they split. Not quite a T connector, but real easy to spot.

17camaro83

could I also have bad fuel injectors? because whenever i start it after it's been sitting for a few hours I have to dump fuel down the tbi just to get it started.

TA4me

17camaro83

Could you do me a favor?

Could you post or e-mail me a pic of where the "opening" is cut over your fuel tank or at least measure where it is for me??

I've seen several F-Body cars that the owners have done this. At a car show a few years back I bought a very nice "trap door" that a guy fabricated. It's installed into an opening and has a recessed edge and a nice neoprene seal and locking mechanism so it seals nice and tight. These really come in handy on the Pro-street cars where we keep switching out pumps but run a stock fuel tank instead of a fuel cell.

If you could take a pic or give me the measurements, that would be great. It would save the trouble of removing the tank to see the location of where the cut has to be made.

Thanks.

ResurrectingZ

Do a search , the help is nice but don't hijack the thread, there are LOTS of places on here if you search instead of irrelevant information not relating to the topic at hand.

As for the injectors, if you want to know if they are good or not, that has yet to be seen. First thing you need to know is if you are getting PRESSURE to the TBI unit, if there is not enough pressure they WILL NOT FIRE, hence dumping fuel down it will make it start. If there is sufficient pressure then have a friend crank the car to see if the injectors are firing into the barrels. I think the proper pressure for TBI is 9-14 lbs, correct me if I am wrong.

TA4me

Are you kidding me?

First of all, I don't exactly think I'm "hijacking the thread" asking him to expand on a comment the he himself made in his own post! What is with people "crying hijack" on every other post on this forum???

Would it be better to start an entire new thread that says "hey 17camaro83, can you tell me how you . . . " ??? Something that many members would not even have an interest in reading..

Don't think because I had to re-register and my posts are low that I don't know how to use the search or that I'm a newbie. If anything substantial came up in the search, I wouldn't have asked a person who could answer my question directly. I've been a member of the site for over 5 years but had to re-register after being away for awhile and my info was "cleared" in one of the upgrades..

Now that I'm finished, I appologize to everyone for having to "Hijack" the post to respond.

Ps. Great job quoting my entire post. Talk about wasting space in the thread.

ResurrectingZ

In one word, Yes.



Then if it was such an inconvenience of using search, then why is it here in the first place? 5+ years and flaming the thread thats pretty lame. Want me to find you a thread for you?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...hole+fuel+pump

WOW that took me a whole 2 MINUTES!!! PICTURES INCLUDED! 4th post from the top EASY TO FIND.


No, if you searched, then it would not have been in vain. Instead I pointed out the obvious, hence my post would not have included your "wasting space in a thread".

Boosted_SS

has anyone thought about it being out of time? when i swapped my motor i had an issue with the distributer. something was all fowled up and it was throwing the car way out of time and it was kind of doing the same thing it would run for a few seconds and shutting off. when it did run it idled really rough. it backfired and popped like crazy! new distributer and it runs like a champ!

17camaro83

you know I never thought to check the timing I will do that tomorrow.
and hey people people no no stop the fighting stop the fighting we're all freinds here right???

TA4me

Oh, Now I get it. Your an I.T. guy. Now it all makes sense.

I'm asking for >>>> MEASUREMENTS AS WELL <<<< . NOT A THREAD THAT I'VE ALREADY FOUND 3 DAYS AGO.

AGAIN . . . . MEA - SURE -MENTS . Sound it out for me. SOME CLEARANCES. Get it ???

Respond all you want. I'm not furthering this thread any longer . (Because now we're both really destroying the thread). Thanks for your "help". You're just another know-it-all with a ton of time on his hands. Go "proof read" some other posts for "Violations" and mind your business. The post to him was no concern of yours.

To start a topic regarding this subject when a person is already "available" (AND CURRENTLY WORKING ON THE AREA IN QUESTION ...!) is a waste. And if I had started a new post, I 'd be willing to bet that you would be the first Tool to chime in and refer me to the post that we are in. Cutting the hole is not something that's done all the time (or should it be). I'm merely trying to get some info from someone who has a car in front of them at the moment.

Thanks again, You've been a great big help.

1990RSGirl

Hey guys. I'm posting on behalf of 17Camaro83 (my hubby). I've got great news. My Camaro is finally running! He checked the codes and came up with a 33 (High voltage (low vacuum) at mass air flow sensor (or MAP sensor)), so he replaced the vacuum line leading to the MAP as well as replacing the original MAP back since it seems the new one was bad.

We no longer have a vacuum leak and she's running great! I took her out for a long spin and it was great to be able to drive her around for the first time in 4 and a half months.

We still have yet to check the problem about it not being able to start when it's cold, and having to dump some fuel in the TBI ourselves, but in an hour or two once she cools down, we'll give it a try. Thanks for all the advice, and we'll keep you updated on this last little problem.

TA4me

Well said. You are correct.

1990RSGirl

The Camaro turns on just fine now when it's cold... No need to put fuel in the TBI ourselves anymore.

Thanks again guys for all the help and advice.

ResurrectingZ

As a matter of fact, technical support technician I for the state hospital. Hence, I.T.