neagan

iTrader: (7)

I am putting together a new engine for my 88 IROC/700R4

The engine builder who's going to help me has me set up with a ZZ4 bare block, forged crank, and forged rod/pistons. He also has the roller camshaft and with his experience building drivetrains for the NASCAR trucks, he wants me to go ahead with some hefty valve springs, 1.6 rockers that fit the bigger studs.

I'm attempting to figure out how lightweight I need to go for the flywheel and timing chain. Do I really need a $200+ harmonic damper, or a $300 billet timing chain set?
I've also been reading the engine building books and am confused as to what style of rockers and lifters to get. There are ones that seem to install singly, in sets with a connector in between and some that are connected by a shaft. From reading, I can see at least that I don't want aluminum rockers or retainers; do they need to be stainless steel?

I love to learn, but right now I just want to build the damn engine so I can start driving the car again.

I have had the plenum highly ported along with the aftermarket runners, and purchased the edelbrock manifold;
24# SVO blueprinted injectors
PCMforless PROM
AFPR
MSD ignition box
3 inch full exhaust from the manifold back.
I am not planning on using a set of headers. I just had back surgery and will not be up to tightening up leaking headers and gaskets or loosening bolts.

I want a Cali smog (visual & test) legal, quick revving engine that scares the neighbor's kids, is road race able more than just 1/4 mile, and dosn't need a spare fuel tank...
Thanks for any thoughts;
Nitro

86camaro383

iTrader: (3)

WHAT!!!! 300 on a timing chain???? Dude, get a cloyes true double roller. 60 bucks and it will last forever. Flywheel depends on the balance of your rotating assembly, internal or external?

What ever it is, get a SFI flywheel, 90 bucks and your set. Im running a 383 stroker with 500 HP, and im using a stock 8 inch balancer

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I found that non SFI balancers are ~$60, and SFI approved ones were $200+. So of course I got the non
You definately don't need a $300 timing chain. If you were building a nascar motor, maybe, but you're not so....
The rockers that are on the shaft are better at 7000RPM - at the cost of $700 vs $200. I'd just use a decent roller tip rocker, like the comp magnums. Steel, or stainless is good, AL will wear out as it's not able to do cyclic loading. Usually they're 4340 or something, i'd use that over SS.

You've been listening to old myths about the header bolts. I use some lockwashers, and I didn't even need to. I didn't even re-tighten mine. If you're worried about it, you can go an buy stage 8 bolts, or any of the new fancy true locking bolt styles, and guarantee that you'll never be re-tightening them. If you think retightening header bolts are a pain, think of the alternative... (using factory manifold and scotch locks? yea, go right ahead if you think that's the "easy" way... )

depending on the cam you're getting, I may not suggest 1.6 rockers, or "really beefy valve springs". Bigger springs just wear out valve train faster. Just get what you really need. what heads are being used?

Sounds like you might be going "all out" on certain frivolous things, then leaving some of the crucial parts stock - That's a recipe for disappointment. Be sure to address all your bottle necks first eh? One thing that comes to mind is the heads, since you didn't mention it, and the rear end and tranny.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the good quality replies, it is mucho appreciated.
I just want a smooth, quick revving engine when I'm done with it. I've been reading up on 350 block rebuilds as voraciously as my little brain can absorb the info. It just gets a bit confusing when I see such a wide varience pricing for a particular part, yet there's not much info I'm finding that explains what the differences are. A good point that was brought up is with the balancers, what actually is the difference between an SFI approved and the $60 non approved?
The heads I have, which I just dropped off to the engine builder to inspect, are a set of World Torquers. They have pretty large chambers and I'll need to apparently use domed top pistons with them. However, this guy is known for his head work, so I'll be finding out if he wants to bother with this set or if I should move on.
The tranny and rear end (700R4/9-bolt) will have to come after the engine is done and paid for (cash flow). It's amazing that a car that looks this good could be so worn out.

Headers: In the past, I've had nothing but trouble with headers: fitment, cracking, leaking, heat build up, etc. I'm thinking more of researching the corvette style cast iron manifold designs.

Thank you for all the pointers; it'll really help as I narrow my part choices down. I just don't want to end up later kicking myself because I skimped in an area. Nitro

Guest

Old myths about header bolts????
I just yesterday tightened up 2 totally loose and ready to fall out bolts on a set of SLP's on my 86 TA. There's no myth, its a fact of life.

Streetiron85

World torquer heads with domed pistons and a $300 timing set
You've got it completely backwards. Sounds like the recipe for an expensive but mediocre engine.
Some unmodified vortecs with flat top pistons and a flat tappet cam would make better power than that combo.
It sounds like it's time to rethink everything before it's too late, if it isn't too late already.
I'm sure there will be other posts with some similar suggestions.
If you can't afford a decent set of heads and there's no possibility of sending those back you could use them. But I wouldn't build a shortblock with domed pistons tailored to match those heads, cause it will rule out the possibility of a future swap when you want to get some better heads. Better to get flattops and live with the low compression for a while til you can get some proper H/P heads.
That's my suggestion anyhow.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

Initially I got the heads for my L98 engine (lightly used/$300 bucks) and was going to get a bit of port work done to em to replace the worn out factory set; so that's why I've got them. The engine builder will let me know if he can work with them or not. I didn't think my original engine was worth a set of $1400 aluminum heads, but this new one is, although I don't have the funds for building a high end/high output power block. You just brought up a good/excellent point about the domed pistons being a drawback if I change heads down the road and it's not to late to rethink any part of the build.

It's also my understanding that if I go to a set of aluminum heads I can bump the compression ration up a notch??? Lastly, are there any cast iron heads that are worth machining?? I'm also wondering if there's plenty of deck on the World S/R's to shave them down to a workable compression ratio. I've only got about $2500 budgeted so far to work this engine build. Expensive heads would take a huge bite out of that small cash pile.... Nitro

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

max - I mentioned re-tightening the bolts since when I had my y-pipe fabbed up, I asked about it. The shop just rolled their eyes at me, and told me to re-snug 'em up after a few heat cycles then leave 'em.
I put lock washers on the PS and just normal washers on the DS. Mostly as a test. 1 month later (when I wiped the cam) they were all as tight as when installed. A rebuilt motor later - again, a month or so later - still tight. Part of that has to do with the proximity to the primaries, it naturally holds some of the bolts in place. *shrug* that's too bad about your situation, but I don't think it's a universal case.

an SFI approved balancer is legal at NHRA racing, when you run in a certain time bracket or something. In other words, you pay more for the higher quality of balancer, but also you're paying for them to stand behind it and guarantee it's good to 12,000RPM for x amount of time. If it fails while you're racing at 7000RPM - you can sue them. I have the summit $61 balancer. They say not to use it "for extended periods above 6000RPM". That's good enough for me. I may not be legal to run an 11 second time slip - but there's not much danger of that happening anyway

I think some hooker 2055's with a ceramic coating is what you're looking for... Heard nothing but good about their fitment, and the coating will keep the heat down.

You might be able to sell /trade those heads to someone for some with a smaller chamber, and save the money on decking. You'd have to angle mill them to get them down enough, which means milling the intake too. Again more $. You might find someone with the smaller chamber size looking to upsize to use a forced induction - that's the perfect trade scenario right there, and it happens too.

And yea, i'd avoid the dome pistons unless absolutely necessary.

Comp788

There have been myths about header boths that just losten up for as long as I can remember. Oer the many years I have seen two main reasons for header bolts to losten up.

1) The headers do have a heat cycle. Once the headers get hot the gasket compresses. This happens on every gasket! Weather it is a stock gasket, an aftermarket header gasket or a high qualtity copper or aluminum one. Once the gasket has cycled it had annealed its self. When it has done that it usually compresses where it was tightned. Now the header bolts are loose. If you retighten the bolt back up. It now can not anneal and compress again. This happens with exhaust manifolds too. Usually with exhaust manifolds I just send them out to be surfaced when the engine is being rebuilt and then put them on with no gaskets. When I was a mechanic I have probably put headers on over 125 cars and never had any leaks due to loose bolts. Header flanges that are warped is a different story.

2) The secon reason that I have seen header bolts loosen up is due to the headers hitting on something. Since the entire exhaust system is rigid. (welded from front to back. I know it is mounted with rubber exhaust hangers) When the headers or exhaust system have a shock. the headers bolts are held down with pressure and force. When the exhaust system takes a jolt the headers take a shock too. This can cause the bolts to have a quick release of pressure. When this happens it can cause the header bolts to start to loosen up. It can also compress the gasket more then the pressure that the bolts apply.

Any of these issues can cause loose bolts. If something is properly tightned and does not get a bunch of beating on it. I see no reason for bolts to just loosen up. None of my customers car nor my cars have had header bolts that just loosen up.

Guest

More than that can do it. A warped flange will do it, so does time and vibration and we know engines never vibrate. Consider yourself lucky if the bolts never come out, I've only had one of too many vehicles to count never back a bolt out... including a bunch of friends vehicles.

Supervisor42

This is going to be a struggle with the cam. (see numerous threads: "Failed emmissions for 3rd time HELP!") I also wouldn't spend much money on super lightweight anything unless this was a "strip-only" car. The dollars/tenth of a second ET is outrageous.
About header bolts: I threw away the ones that came with my Hedmans. Too short in my opinion. They had maybe 1/2" engagement with the head in 1" deep tapped holes. Went with 12 point bolts a full 1/4" longer. Put them in with loctite changing them out one at a time during install. I know everyone will say the heat will just cook the loctite out, but it ain't so. Coolant flowing thru the head keeps it below 300'. They stay tight.
Oh yeah, if I ever have to take them out,
they'll probably hear me cursing all the way up to Saskachuan!

Comp788

Madmax,

I agree that more then that will cause the bolts to come loose. But a warped flange will usually just have an exhaust leak or problems sealing from the start. It usually will not cause bolt to loosen up. Vibration is a factor but most of these new engines are pretty smooth. They do not really shake like the motors of the 50's, 60' & 70's technology has come a long way over the past 15 to 20 years.

Supervisor42,

Your right in regards to the correct length bolt. A good qualtity bolt is important. The bolts that come with most headers are junk and usually the incorrect length too. I nice set of ARP or other reputable bolt manufacture goes a long way in helping to prevent bolts loosen up. If your using a cheap bolt that means it has cheep metal, poor thread strength, and might break before it is supposed to. I don't know about any of you but a broken header bolt is never a good thing in my book.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

FWIW - socket capscrews are generally alloy steel, so you CAN'T screw up and get socket capscrews that are weak. Also, it makes wrenching a lot easier. (that's what i'm using). anyway, this thread isn't really about headers and bolts per se...

Neagan - any more questions that weren't answered? (or new ones?)

neagan

iTrader: (7)

I'm just finishing up the book: Small-Block CHEVY Performance. Under the Exhaust Systems section he discussesCorvette 'Ram's horn manifolds'; stating that they are the most popular because they provide the best performance to begin with. "After porting and connection to a special two-into-one exhaust system these reworked maniforlds deliver a surprising amount of power". He then briefly mentions 'Brzezinski exhaust systems' can deliver over 20 horsepower more than the stock system.

This is what I'm leaning towards- as I mentioned, I've repaired and replaced way to many headers and it just kills me to lean over an engine compartment for longer than 10-15 minutes. I'll do a Search function key on the Ram horn system to see what I can find out.

I'm also hoping that I communicated properly why I initially asked after the lightweight parts. I want a reliable smooth running motor that has the ability to rev as smoothly as it wants to. I've driven some rebuilds that made fists full of extra power from the stock version, but they sounded and felt like they were having to work god-awful hard at it to do it. I've also driven a couple motors where someone spent the money to have the motor balanced and blueprinted, paid extra attention to the small details. These later ones were such a joy to drive compared to the others. They used a lot less fuel, lacked cranky habits and the power came on so startingly quick and fast! It was so vastly superior to most of the other engine rebuilds. If I was just focused on weight savings, I'd take a loan out and start with an all aluminum engine block.

I don't need to cut minute tenths off my 1/4 mile times, or have a faster Camaro than anyone else at the track(s). I just want to drive the IROC around the seashore and mountain passes with smooth consistancy, initiating rear oversteer because I can and want to safetly with an engine that won't bog down. I have been taking my wifes G35 Infiniti over to our local Infinion Raceway a few times this season and am especially pleased with how consistant it runs. I shoe polish in 14.8 for my official dial in time and the car hits almost an exact same 14.9 run after run. It can be real adicting!

So, breaking it all down; with such a wide pricing range of like parts available, how do I choose the extra level of performance without going to badly overboard? Think of it this way: Someone's been using Pensoil 20-50 weight in there engine. They take a chance one day and drop in some Redline 5-30 and presto; the engine not only runs smoother, but has more power, fuel mileage increases. Does he then need to stay there or should he try Royal Purple and other name brands that are much more steeply priced than even the Redline was???? How does one figure out where to stop?

I finally spoke with my engine builder tonight regarding the Cast Iron World Products Torquer heads. He said he's delighted with them and that it'll be a good set for him to show me how to do my own porting and polishing on. Alegedly I've got about 3 more weeks and then he'll be ready to take my engine project on.

I got a bit shook up earlier today with reading the comments about the heads, thinking that I needed to shell out another $1600 , that would have hurt!!! Best of luck to you all,
Sincerely, Nitro

ede

if i needed or anted a 300 dollars timing chain gear set i'd spend a little more and get a belt drive timing system. as for headers i cut the flanges between each tube, or set of tubes and safety wire the bolts.