neagan

iTrader: (7)

I tried to do a ZZ4 search and came up with over 1000 hits spread over 20 pages- that's an overload!

The reason for my question: I have an extremely high rated engine builder that has a ZZ4 short block set up that he's willing to show me how to build up for my 88 IROC. Allegedly it's a much better 'platform' than rebuilding my stock L98 engine. He's going to walk me through doing a port job on a set of World SR cast heads and I've got a heavily ported TPI setup with worked over factory plenum, TPS runners and edelbrock intake. I'll also be choosing a roller cam set-up and forged rods and pistons.

Is this a completely different block like an LS1/LT1? and will I be able to purchase the same type of timing chain, water pump, oil pump, etc?? I'm just so naive outside of the L98 block and have a really limited budget this year.

I could really use a solid education on this.
My sincerest thanks to your input and reply. Nitro

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

The ZZ4 is a GEN I SBC, meaning it's basically the same casting as your L98, but they do have a little more stout bottom end. Hypereutectic pistons, GM powdered metal rods, and a cast crank. The long block is rated at 355 HP from GM. It is a completely NEW casting, not a reman.

Yet, I'm not sure if it's offered only in 2 piece rear main seal or if there's a 1 piece rear available.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

It's slightly tougher than a stock L98 bottom end, with a little bit bigger cam. The ZZ4 heads are corvette aluminum "113" L98 heads.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

So If I'm going to be starting with a ZZ4 block, then the only thing different is a stronger block than the factory L98? And all the parts I've set aside for my L98 rebuild should bolt right up? (I can just start to hear a bit of rod bearing noise developing). Is the ZZ4 also a two bolt main?

It been my understanding that the max horsepower I could expect to make on my factory L98 was approx. 325-335 horsepower. If that's a base rule of thumb, how does the ZZ4 long block get rated at 350 horsepower with a stock TPI system and yet it keeps all that torque???

How do you guys learn all this stuff? Nitro

Jade Grey

iTrader: (1)

It's a forged crank.

The block used is a 1-piece rear main seal design. It's also a 4-bolt main whereas the L98 are only 2-bolt.

Neagan, here's a link to some info, GILBERT CHEVROLET - ZZ4 350 (5.7L) Partial Engine.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

The ZZ4 isn't a TPI motor, it's a carburated crate motor. That's the huge difference. Bigger cam, little bit better heads, WAY better intake. It's numbers were also made with long tube headers only and no accessories, so they're a tad inflated.

There's no real difference between the two, other than the ZZ4 can take a little more punishment. Probably somewhere near 450+ rwhp.

I learned alot just being on this forum, it takes time.

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

I stand corrected... for some reason I thought it was just a new cast crank.

Damon

Also of note.... The ZZ-4 shortblock uses flattop pistons (-6cc dish for the valve reliefs) whereas the factory L-98 shortblock uses full-face dished pistons (about -12cc dish including valve reliefs).

This will raise your compression ratio about 1/2 point, all else held equal. For instance, a factory 9.3:1 compression ratio would become 9.8:1, assuming all other parts in the assembly were the same as stock.

zz4mula

A ZZ4 is an aluminum head first gen small block. It has the one piece rear main seal. It is rated at 355hp and 405ft/lbs torque running a carb. The General back in the late 90's did offer a kit to put this combo in a carbed third gen. It was only rated if my memory helpssss me at about 310hp. I put this engine in my car, and installed the tpi in place of the carb. It will run fine if you plan everything out. If you are only going with the short block, it is like any other SBC.

shaggy56

Dont forget by only swapping the heads to the fastburns it turned it into the Fastburn 385 crate engine. Gets you thinking of porting or swapping for better flowing heads.

Air_Adam

Uhh... not quite. Not just a head swap there... they also stroked it (4.00x3.80 instead of 4.00x3.48 like the ZZ4)

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

Really? I just pulled my L98 apart the other night. It's got flat top pistons with valve reliefs.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I believe that to be the ZZ383 engine rated at 425 HP.

There is a Fastburn ZZ4 based engine.

RBob.

shaggy56

I think your thinking of the ZZ383 which was rated at 425 hp. The Fastburn version was rated at 385 HP with just a head swap.

Here is a quote from many crate adverts.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

The 87-89 L98 has dished pistons, while the 90-92 has flattops. This explains the higher compression rating for 90-92 L98's.

The ZZ4 crate engine rated at 355 HP is gross horsepower, meaning without accessories and with dyno headers, etc. The 310HP ZZ4 for the carb f-body is net horsepower, meaning with the accessories and exhaust manifolds that you would use in the car.

Also, keep in mind the Fastburn heads have the Vortech-style intake passages, so you would want the Scoggin Dickey Vortec TPI intake. The regular TPI intake will not seal with those heads.

zz4monte

I like the remark about the zz4 being over inflated on power a little but it is true.They only make 355hp with 1 3/4 headers a 750cfm carb and no accessories.The funny thing is that without 1 5/8 headers it will not make the torque ratings either.The torque ratings are from 1 5/8 headers while the hp rating is done from 1 3/4. Thats why GM always says 1 5/8-1 3/4 are recommended. I have met a lot of people who have not made the rwhp or flywheel hp of what they are said to be by GM. The highest rwhp I have seen in a automatic car is a early 70s el camino that made 278rwhp but he only made 348ftlbs of torque.He had 1 3/4 headers.

I only run 271rwhp and 368rwtq with 1 5/8. Most people run 335-350hp at the flywheel with a true dual exhaust system.It's still a good motor but alot of zz4 owners have complained of not making the 355hp.Gm should explain more clearly how they are dynoed and what it will really make once its in a car.I have seen many 330HO motors pull the same or higher numbers on the dyno.

Air_Adam

Then its been rebuilt or something at some point. Stock L98 pistons are dished.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

I truely thank all of you for responding. I'm going to have to iron out the build this week. Out of curiosity, what makes a head design into a 'fast-burn' item?

The gentleman who's going to do the build is a race car engine/transmission builder who's even done lot's of work with the Craftsman truck series. He has quite a collection of parts and spares, and is going to help me do a budget build and show me how to do all the measuring and machine work tricks to eek out the most horsepower while keeping it smog legal.

I've got the heavily ported TPI system and a low mileage pair of World SR assembled heads are being shipped to me (67cc I think) tomorrow. The builder has the ZZ4 block, forged pistons, crank, and rods, and a big selection of roller cams and lots of heavy duty NASCAR springs. The goal is to put together a fairly well reving autocross/street motor.

Would any particular size lifters/rollers/rockers/stud girdles work better than stock for longevity and higher revs without breaking the bank? I ask this as there are always sets being advertised in our classified board and I"m trying to buy the best I can afford from other members.

Other than rebuilding a honda car engine my knowledge has been limited to remove and replace skills. Hope everyone had a good weekend,
Sincerely, Nitro

shaggy56

You can nit pick everything that the fastburns produce more power compared to a stock head. If anything though, at least in my opinion, its that the Fastburn heads have a 210cc intake runner which is alot larger than your average l98 head and even the world head. Nothing wrong with the world head, but if your looking for power they would need to be ported. The fastburns actually dont flow all that well for the size runners they have. Thats why most will just opt for a higher cc head instead of having to pay or worry about porting heads. Incidently I have seen ported World SR heads flow better than Fastburns.

Air_Adam

I stand corrected.

neagan

iTrader: (7)

I've already dumped over $2500 in this IROC over the past 90 days replacing worn out parts- that's why the budget engine build till I get the entire car hot lap ready. I chose the World iron heads because they only cost me about $300 complete which is hella cheaper than a 23 degree aluminum set. In a couple years I'll probably build a blower motor(non roots type) that will tuck under a fiberglass hood. For right now, since I'm not a dragstrip only junkie, I just want to have enough power to launch off the corners without the drivetrain bogging down ( I live right near the Infinion Raceway roadcourse and have access to the track for hot laps).

Can you still go ahead and tell me about the differences that makes a cylinder head a 'Fast Burn' unit? I'm hungry for knowledge.
Nitro

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I've got news, EVERY ZZ3/ZZ4 that we have pulled apart in the shop has a NODULAR IRON crank, that means it is CAST IRON hence CAST. GM literature even advertises them as Nodular Iron, 2005 GMPP catalog. I now see that the ZZ4 has a forged crank. Funny that this is the first time that I have seen the ZZ4 having a forged crank, must have been a fairly recent change.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

See my post #15 and stand corrected again.

87-89 L98 pistons are dished, 90-92 L98 pistons are flat top. All LB9 and L03 pistons are dished, for reference.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You maybe right on the LB9, although I am thinking that the 1985s had flattop pistons with 4 valve reliefs. I KNOW that you are wrong on the L03s though. ALL L03s would technically include truck engines. I know for a fact that STOCK 1994-1995 L03 truck engines had flattop pistons with 4 valve reliefs.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is a GM aluminum Fastburn head. These are available over the counter from GM and re-sellers (Jegs, Summit). This particular head has that as a name, such as a Vortec head is a 'Vortec' head. I've also seen the Fastburn head called an 'Aluminum Vortec heads.' Not really the proper name, but none-the-less it is used.

The Fastburn is similar to the Vortec as the intake ports are slightly rasied. And can use a Vortec intake manifold. The Fastburn is also drilled and tapped to mount a standard intake.

There are also fastburn chambers. This is a chamber design that promotes a faster burning of the AF. Usually requires less SA. A lot of the aftermarket heads have this type of chamber.

RBob.

zz4monte

Fast355-As far as I know all zz4 engines have a forged crank.The zz3 and 330HO do not. That zz4 crank is one good piece but I wish they gave it forged pistons.

shaggy56

I wouldnt get your hopes too high on the forged ZZ4 crankshaft because its a 1053 forged piece. Actually a nodular iron crankshaft isnt that much different in strength and even the Scat 9000 cast cranks can be stronger.

sprojam

can you explain the difference to these people nodular verse forged?here it says undercut rolled/ forged steel crankshaft.

Time2Fly

One of two possibilities here: 1) You don't know the difference between a ZZ3 and a ZZ4 and the only ZZ4 motors you have pulled apart were produced very early in the production run. 2) All of the ZZ3/ZZ4 motors you pulled apart had the cranks replaced before you got into them. I'm gonna assume possibilty #1. Let me set the story straight: All ZZZ through ZZ3 crate motors were delivered with steel crankshafts (that is a fact). Some (very early) ZZ4 crate motors were delivered with nodular iron crankshafts. However, the vast majority of ZZ4s were delivered with steel crankshafts. BTW, you can identify a ZZ3 by the stamping on the front block pad; it will read ZZ3. I own a ZZ3 and I can tell you; it has a steel crankshaft. If I owned an early ZZ4 with a nodular iron piece I wouldn't be the slightest bit worried about its durablility.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Yeap, I found out my L98 had flattops when I did the cam/head swap last winter. I beleive the dish with 64cc heads had 9.3 to 1 and the flattops with 64cc heads had 9.8 to 1.

shaggy56

Well there are different grades of forgings. A 1053 forging on a scale of strength in hardness and other is not much more than that of a nodular cast crank. 1053 high-carbon alloy steel typically has around 100,000 psi tensile strength. 5140 grade steel alloy is a good upgrade and has around 115,000 psi tensile strength. Forged cranks made of 4340 alloy typically have a tensile strength of 140,000 to 145,000 psi and are much more resistant to fatigue than 5140 or 1053. Some Ductile or nodular crankshafts have a tensile strength of 100,000 psi which is equivelent to 1053 forged steel.

sprojam

so all 3 are still poured from cast just different steel grades or are some forged from a press?

Time2Fly

Just found this: http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/perfpart...talog_2006.pdf
Check out page 169.

shaggy56

Cast is molten steel is poured into a mold that is the size and shape of the final part to be made. Once cooled the mold is broken away leaving the rough-cast part, which is then machined or given further hardening treatment as necessary.

Forgings are made from bar stock which is almost universally round stock. The bar is heated in a furnace to a pecific temperature for the type metal.

sprojam

ok pretty much what i thought but what about nodular is this a type of cast or forgeing process? i thought i seen somewhere that it is silicone inpregnated during the casting procedure giving a cost affective alternative to forgeing is this correct?

shaggy56

Yes they are still cast. In gray iron, the graphite is in the form of flakes. In nodular iron, the graphite is in spherically shaped nodules, which are surrounded by an iron carbide shell. The addition of magnesium ('inoculation') desulfurizes the iron and causes the graphite to grow as nodules rather than flakes. High Silicon Ductile Irons containing 4-6% silicon were developed to meet the increasing demands for high strength. Austempered Ductile Iron (ADI)
the most recent addition to the Ductile Iron family, is a sub-group of Ductile Irons produced by giving conventional Ductile Iron a special austempering heat treatment.

Specialty Castings - Ductile Iron Castings

sprojam

so this creates a stronger then cast but still is not as strong as forged crank. its amazing the tech available. i have always been awed by the zzz motors ive been around a few an always believed starting with a good block was the way to go but as i have said ive been around a few an my buddys is contiueing to put out more an more hp for less dough then i have in mine kind of makes you wander about this crate motor industry they sure have a strangle hold on the market right now an i think next time ill look a litle closer at it. thanks for the inspiration off to work on my third gen timing issues still shakin my head.

shaggy56

Actually if you read that link they have something called Austempered Ductile Iron and it can be as strong if not stronger that a forging. Its the newest type casting. May be something that may become more common and replace forged steel.

sprojam

funny i have worked with this stuff austemper twist an destorts the parts very badly an is very hard to machine hense is a machinest nightmare but the twist test ive seen are unreal pegs the machine every time. so if you see this tech in cranks should be somewhat pricey because of machine tool cost an time.

sprojam

how about cyro freeze i have heard that this is being used in snowmobiles to the import seen any of this finding its way into small blocks. and what is the tech about obviously makes for better parts?

shaggy56

Actually they do have crankshafts made from ADI. Ford turbo crankshafts are made from ADI and its still cheaper to make than forged steel. Im sure its science that would have to be perfected like anything.

sprojam

really what is the cost looking like?

shaggy56

Not sure but its Fords claim to fame. May want to contact them.

sprojam

na the tech might be good but the product isnt for me! well sorry about getting off the subject there something bout tech gets me goin bout like a nice sounding warmed over small block hence off to deal with my timing issue good luck on your swap sounds good to me.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

There were so many changes to the ZZ crate engines over the years, you really can't assume anything. I picked up a shortblock advertised as a ZZ4, but it had pink rods, so that meant it could be a ZZ3 or early ZZ4. It also had the close-spaced cam retainer bolt vs. the wider spacing, which changed in the early ZZ4 era. The engine had been in a pickup truck, and the owner apparently didn't believe in one phase of maintenance or another (oil changes, air filter, or something), because the bores were worn and took .020" rough to clean up (.030" over by the final hone). However, the crank, which is forged per the "casting" number, was fine, only required a polishing, so it was able to handle more wear-inducing neglect than the bores were.

With ZZ4 cam, ported World Products 305 heads (which turn out to have 64cc chambers), .012" off the block deck, 12cc dish pistons and .020" compressed head gaskets for 9.7:1 CR, Hooker 2055 headers, ZZ3 intake, L69 air cleaner on a CC q-jet, it calculates out to ~300 RWHP based on 1/4 mile performance. A TPI engine won't do as well, I don't think, without major mods to the system. Don't figure on stock runners producing anything better than about 275 HP, regardless how much the rest of it has been ported and what cam/heads/headers you use.

Time2Fly

I took delivery of my ZZ3 in September of 1995 and it has PM rods.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I was looking for the parts list that used to be available on line, and couldn't find it when I was writing that. So, that was written from memory, and I could have that part wrong (actually went to PM mid-ZZ3). But, as I remember it I had some things that could be ZZ3 and some that could be ZZ4. The block casting date didn't help any, either.

sprojam

i have a recent ad if this helps10:1 compression 4boltmain block hei distributor pm steel connecting rods high silicon aluminum pistons with offsetpins aluminum angle plug cylinderheads 58ccchambers1.94 intake/1.50 exaust hydraulic roller camlift.474"/.510" duration @.050 208/221 waterpump undercutrolled/forged steel crankshaft dualplane aluminum intake manifold 8" high rpm tosional damper 12.75"auto trans flex plate
zz4 ho engine with 58cc chamber aluminum head 355 horse power

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I guess this is the final say on the CURRENT production ZZ4. Looks like it DOES have a forged crank.

12561723 - ZZ Small-Block Partial (shortblock) Engine - 12561723

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I deal with thirdgen engines only on this thirdgen f-body website, but thank you for the clarification.