Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Just re-rebuilt my engine.
Went to fire it up for break in, cranked over ok for a few seconds, didn't fire. Tried again, cranked, then slowed cranking to almost nil. I had dumped fuel into the carb, and the squirters squirted....

I thought maybe the starter tilted it or something and like seized? Is that possible?
Everything that can go wrong, has on this motor...

Car had about 1 month downtime, so i'm charging the battery now in case it was low.

It still didn't fire however after the initial cranking. I was very careful to do the distributor timing. I double checked that it's plugged in and all that. I think i'll probably end up pulling the dist and retiming it anyway.
Any thoughts though?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I couldn't rotate the engine by hand on the balancer bolt, it's like the motor is seized...?
But I did rotate by hand many times in order to set valve lash, so...?

It did crank over for a few seconds on the starter the first time, so I don't think the motor is locked up, but it sure seems like it isn't going anywhere now...

Thanks

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

TTT?

sprojam

tryin to start with one starter bolt not a good idea drink a beer and wait for your drill bit

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

What?

Apeiron

Did you check for spark?

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

So the motor is free at the moment? Or you can't maneuver it at all? Did I read that right?

Ok, if the motor is not turning by hand and a good yank won't move it, then I would suggest pulling the plugs and trying to turn it by hand. As far as it not starting, if the battery is too low, it may not have enough juice to energize the ignition to give you adequate spark. If you've got everything else hooked up properly, I'd say that would be your issue.

Remember to be easy on the cranking, due to that flat tappet cam. They can wipe out like nothing if not done perfectly. I'm sure you already know that though. What did you use for break in oil?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I've got a can of Crane super lube (like GM EOS I guess), with a jug of Rotella T 15W40. I couldn't find the 10W30.
I'm going to run castrol 10W30 after cam break in.

-Check for spark - I think of that as cranking it over while holding a plug against the block, or using a plug tester. I'm VERY leery about excessive cranking on the motor, since I haven't broken in the cam.

- Yea, I couldn't turn it over by hand. I think i'll pull all the plugs, and try again. Then jack it up and jack if the starter is stuck in place. I used a piece of grade 8 threaded rod instead of the outer bolt hole, so perhaps if the nut wasn't tightened down hard enough the extra slop let the starter shift, and somehow seized the flywheel.

Any thoughts in light of this info?

Apeiron

Connect a spark tester, pull the distributor out, ground the housing and spin the gear by hand.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

connect a spark tester to a plug wire (instead of a spark plug), and just spin the dist by the gear, and look for a weak spark coming out? Key out of the ignition, etc?

I'm going to run next door and see if buddy has a spark tester.

Apeiron

Key in, ignition on, just don't start it.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

oh ok, wired up, hooked up, etc.
Happen to have a part # or something on a spark tester? I mean is this the sorta thing I can use a continuity light for? I figure spinning that by hand won't give a "spark"...

Apeiron

You'll get a spark. It's not a magneto, the pickup coil is just a trigger for the electronics. All it takes is a flick of the gear.

Should be able to find a KD Tools 2756 or Lisle 50850 locally. You can do the low tech stuff first too, like make sure the distributor has power, etc.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ok, i'll check the pink power wire going to dist, to make sure it's got power.
That'll be obvious, if I missed a wire down at the starter or something.

Then i'll push the car back into the garage, since it's not going to stop raining any time soon here, then i'll jack it up and look at the starter and whatnot. Then try and rotate engine over by hand again.

sprojam

the motor is still not turning over? i was helping my brother hook up his new motor last night i hooked up the starter he is running a mini starter i noticed the gear was not disengageing ok with a mini starter but with stock starter could be a problem. quick ? how do you place a post? like i said new motor new problem

Apeiron

You had all the grounds connected to the block?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

When you're in the tech/general engine forum, you just hit "new post" in the top left corner.


I think I have all the grounds. I turned the key and the stereo started up.
neg on batt -> alt bracket, with copper antiseize (conductive).
back of pass head -> body
I think that's it. Positive on batt-> stereo, and to starter, and to alternator terminal.

The car did run fine (relatively), 1 month ago, so I'm leaning away from worn out ignition or anything, and towards "oops forgot that plug" sorta thing.

I might be able to check this out tonight, i'm moving bedrooms due to new roommates so i'm kinda swamped. Heck, maybe i'll just buy another delta 88 to drive this winter How many extras of those do you got Chris?

sprojam

hey thanks alot for your help have you got anything figured with your car turning over yet? sorry bout yesterday thought you were someone else that was haveing alignment issues he only had one bolt holdin his starter in lol

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

Make sure your battery is fully juiced up too. You want a heavier weight oil for breaking the cam in, the machine shop told me either Rotella 15w-40 or just SAE 30, but to get the SAE 30 If I could. You can still use rotella after the break in, mainly because diesel engine oils still have the zincs and the phosphates added to them. That negates the necessity of getting oil additive every time you change your oil.

Is the motor free spinning yet? I think your starter hypothesis may be the culprit.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

haha, guys, i'm still at work here, gimme a bit.
Tonight, since it's stopped raining, I should be able to jack it up and take a look at the starter. Then i'll pull the plugs and rotate it to TDC on #1 firing. Well, 15* advanced or so. Then drop in the dist, and rotate it so a post lines up with the rotor, and two of the funky "teeth" thingies are lined up. Then put the plug wires back on from 1.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

move the dizzy back and forth to get it to fire, always have a buddy handy just for this thing.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ok, here's what i've done:

jack the car up, check the starter. Looks good, no gear is stuck out in the nose area jammed in the teeth of the flywheel, so I assume all is well there.
I rolled the car back out of the driveway in neutral, so i'm pretty sure it's not stuck to the clutch, or anything like that.

So that means that of things that stop the engine from rotating, flywheel back is out of the equation.

I pulled all the plugs and tried again to rotate it over. Unless i've lost SIGNIFICANT muscle mass, (I haven't) then something is pooched here. I cannot for the life of me rotate the motor over.

I pulled the distributor, nothing looks wrong with that. Tried rotating the motor over again, still no go.

What else can I try now? Remove the v-belts and try again?
Anything else I can try before I heave in a molotov ?

sprojam

did you use a brek over bar on the crank shaft bolt i believe its 5/8 deepwell with a one inch xtension works great

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yep. Just succeeded in tightening that bolt like crazy.

Supervisor42

When you worked the motor did you have the cylinders rehoned/new rings? If so that's ok.
I've encountered the same problem "birthing a smallblock"
If the motor is put together right and a good amount of gas is put down it to try to get it to start, (or starting fluid is used) it will take the oil off of the new rings and the freshly honed (read not-polished) cylinder bores. This can lead to a "very hard to turn engine"
Verify the spark and timing.
Pull the plugs and squirt tablespoon of oil in each sparkplug hole.
Spin the engine with the starter briefly. Put the plugs in and tell the neighbors "no charge for fogging the mosquitoes"...and make some smoke.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yes, I rehoned but used my old rings. That is, 1000miles or so on them.

hmm, good point, I dumped some gas in trying to get it to start...

Alright, I can try that, a squirt from my oil can into each cylinder, flick the starter quick (with plugs still out, and/or distributor unplugged?)

Then hook those back up, then hold the starter down and hope it'll fire this time eh?

sprojam

this is very good idea wish id thought of it sooner you think the oil will unlock it the only thing he did that i dont is poor gas in the carb you think that wiped the cylinder wall clean causeing to lock

Supervisor42

Right. Verify spark and timing, throttle at 25 percent, use the thumb on the choke plate instead of pouring gas in the carb.

sprojam

thats what i do i crank my motor several times during the install proceedure alot of people say prime the oil system with a drill i dont i install the distrib without cap and crank away adjustin valves for third time after i bolt anything to the motor allways have been affraid of this happening and never had and im sure there is prolly some ney sayers out there

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

not joking, i'm basically just hitting refresh and running out there and trying this stuff.

ok, flicked the starter, motor spins over like it's meant do. Good good.
Still can't turn it by hand, it's too tough...

So i've got the plug wires off the cap, and I don't know where I am really. I can't rotate it to TDC#1, rotor is pointing at the center console area now, and i'm not sure which plugs to put on where...? I mean, normally now i'd rotate it to TDC#1 feel the puff of air, (while rotating motor by hand), then put #1 plug on that post on the rotor and go to town.

how do I verify timing where i'm at now?

Supervisor42

You will have to have an assistant bumping the engine over. Click...click...click....wheeze, pop. You may have to screwdriver the ring gear to spot the engine from there.

sprojam

ok heres what i do i pull the valve cover drivers side rotate the motor till both valves are shut for #one piston look at the timing mark make sure its lined up with tdc then there ya go #1 plug goes there. then with a timing light you can dial here in when you have the valve cover off this is also agood time to see if you oil system is primed oil should be pumping up through the push rods

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ah ok, keep my finger on the #1 plug hole, and flick the starter until I get my finger pushed out, then watch the timing marks on the balancer and try to get it to ~10* or something?
ok, i've never bumped the starter like that, I always thought one "bump" would spin the motor over 2 times or more, and it'd be wayyyy too fast...

well my assistant had to go run in his hamster wheel, and it's dark now, so i'll be doing this tommorow it looks like.
Thanks!

sprojam

once you get it close i use a break over bar then you can get it exact alot easer with plugs out good luck

Apeiron

Compare the size of the starter gear and the ring gear on the flywheel. The engine turns over a whole lot slower than the starter.

ls1>*

iTrader: (32)

actually im glad you posted here and not in my thread, since you cant seem to grasp the problem that was going on over there.

mnorton

Sonix.... Well what's up? I've been reading about your (many) engine issues for.... what, three weeks now? So did it start yet?!

Inquiring minds want to know!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

haha, well you've waiting eagrly, so here you go:

today had some friends help me, cranked it over and wiggled distributor. Fired up... Had a few shut downs though, it smoked like CRAZY!!! And when I said "if there's a fire throw something on it", so it was smoking, and burning off the oil, so he throws on my stuff.... anyway, no fires, however it started billowing out smoke and buddy said "there's liquid on the ground", so I shut 'er down, and found a lot of oil on the ground.
Seemed thick, like trans fluid...?
anyway, I think it's motor oil, with water. Seemed to be leaking from drivers side #3/5 plug area, can't figure out where, but the time I was there, it was all smoke so I couldn't see anything. White smoke, and sizzling.
I think it melted some of my plastic wire routers, and a lot of water. I pulled my car out of the garage to fire it up about 5 days ago, then didn't have any help or time, so it sat outside, SANS HOOD. So it rained for 3 days straight, no hood. See where i'm going with this? I was smart enough to cover the carb with a bag but my water pump and heads next to the intake manifold rusted. I think a fair bit of water got in the crank case, since I removed the drivers side valve cover, and there was water in it....
.

.
Not sure where I go from here, but I do have some intake manifold gaskets spare...
anyway, I think i'll drain the oil and filter, maybe pour something down there... Then fill it up with new oil and superlube. Probably remove the intake and lifters, and pour super lube down there, since I have new intake manifold gaskets anyway.

still, 0 luck for me. Anyway, everyone is rushing me to take off here, so unfortunately I have to put this off for a bit again, maybe tommorow and monday I can work on it.

Supervisor42

I guess you found out what I was saying about:
Are you sure you aren't from Alabama? I think with a little training you could fit right in.

mnorton

Oh man.... What next?!

evilmonkeyracin

it got oil????.....

Kevman

I'm sorry if anyone posted this, but putting a motor together, and hearing alot of stories myself I have been told that if you have a mixture of parts that won't go together, then the motor will never work. What crank, rods, pistons, valves, bearings, cam, and heads are you running?
If you follow a certain guideline from Edelbrock for example with their Performer RPM, it tells you what goes with what, and what rating of horsepower (sorry if you've heard this already).
Also, did you torque everything 3 times?

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

He's using everything he had in his old motor, minus the cam (which wiped out).

Kevman

Then its left to the gaskets, and how they're put on.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

well that's what i'm not sure about.
Screwed up the gaskets/install, or because the motor got rained on. If it's just rain then i'd just drain the watery oil and put in new oil and super lube. If it's something else...?
I think head gaskets are kinda a no brainer, set it on, put the head on above it, bolt it tight...
Maybe I shifted my intake gasket? I did blow coolant out of the drivers side of the block type area, along with oil...Which i'm not sure how that would be from intake manifold gaskets... Heck, i'm not sure how it would have leaked from that area... head gasket, or maybe the dipstick tube... It smoked on the headers and the smoke made it impossible to see the leak...
Just a puddle of oil on the driveway.

I'm going to try and find out the source of the leak later, maybe tommorow, but...
Could the rain have any effect on this?

mnorton

I suppose that if there was a lot of rain water in the oil pan that it would overflow the pan, but I don't know where or if it could find a way out. Maybe the dip stick port would leak. It sounds to me like it leaked out at the valve cover gasket when you started it up.

Seems like it's time to re-group. Drain the pan, install new oil & filter, check the valve cover gaskets, turn the key.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

- ok, drained the oil, kinda murky, but no water per se...? Used GM EOS with castrol 10W30. A bit of metallic sludge in the top of the heads.

- changed driverside valve cover gasket

- Fired it up -> ran very badly, barely at all, my brother flicked the distributor and got it to run nicer, then he held it running while I looked at it. After re twisted the dist, it was at ~20* timing at 2500RPM, I brought it up to ~28*

- Couldn't finish breaking it in though, main problem now -> stuck in gear. It feels like it's in neutral, but I can only get into 4th gear I think. When I let out the clutch the car dies. I'm guessing I screwed up the linkage install when I removed/replaced the trans, and i'm stuck in 4th gear. My brother had to run so he couldn't hold the pedal down while running it, and I didn't want to do it alone for fear of something going wrong and I couldn't see the motor while it was running.
So, i'm going to try and figure out my linkage set up tommorow probably. If anyone knows anything about a T10 or Hurst super comp linkage setup, i'd love to hear it. Thanks

oh, and I added a bung in the y-pipe (last month or so), for an O2 sensor, which I left out for break in (heard it kills them). I also realized that I drilled the hole, and welded on the nut with the exhaust on the floor, didn't realize that it's too close to the SFC's, so it's useless. Awesome, now i've gotta cut that off, weld up a patch of some kind, and put the nut somewhere else. Stellar.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

k, think I got it unstuck from gear, went to go fire it up again, figured i'd check the fluids first.

dipstick - chocolate milk
pull DS valve cover - more white sludge, very little fluid up there, just some white watery junk.

sigh, started to pull the intake manifold. Drained the rad, but there's very little fluid in it. pulled the intake, which proceeded to dump it's fluid into the lifter valley. The intake bolts were very loose, a few finger tight, the rest ~5lbs of torque. But the intake was glued down well, had to pull it off. Gaskets looked in good shape, no sign of deterioration.

I guess i'll be pulling the heads then? I can see the gaskets between the head and block, both are there and look ok.
sealant was on all intake bolt threads, and i'm pretty sure on all head bolts as well.

What in gods name could cause this much antifreeze to get in the oil??? I think head gaskets are a no brainer, and for them to fail instantly i'm not leaning towards. Intake gaskets looked good, no sign of failure (although it was hard to tell).
any ideas? I think i'll get up bright and early tommorow and tackle the crap out of this.

John 89 Formula

cracked block?

Apeiron

If you hadn't taken the intake off yet, you could have pressurized the cooling system and checked for leaks.