EthanH

How much more power does the 350 have over the 305? Also about what speed does the engine sound like its straining? Only answere if your comparing 2 pretty much stock engines.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

No replacement for displacement. 350 will provide more torque. If your compairing 305 and 350 TPI engines both will struggle at 4.5k rpms because TPI doesn't flow that great above 4k.

EthanH

I want to know how much faster it'll go. Im not concerned with torque, because it wont be pulling anything.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

You want lots of torque. It's your off the line power. Horsepower makes you go fast top end. That's a really simple way of thinking of it. 92 350 TPI was rated at 245 horse and the 305 was rated at 230. 350 is always going to be better because it has a larger displacement. People will always argue that fact but really, the 350 will make more power in the end. If you essentially asking "what motor should I put in my car", go with a 350, a stroked 350 (383 stroker) or a 400 small block (these provide lots of torque).

This is a tough question to answer. I'm not sure what your asking for. Thirdgen 350's arent the greatest. TPI is good but not excellent. If your looking for a stock LS1 or LT1 or something. Those are good motors.

sully91rs

I'd think the sound of a straning engine has lots to do with parts besides the engine (intake, exhaust, basically any flow restrictions).

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Exactly. Stock TPI heads strain at idle man! You need some AFR's baby
That's what I'm talking about. The difference between a stock 350 and 305 thirdgen motor is negligable. They both are equally slow. If your really looking to haul some ***, your going to want to mod. If that's the case, start off with the 350 right away.

EthanH

allright. Heres some information. This will be my first car, which means ill be driving alot and have a pretty crappy job. Ill need gas money but im getting a v8 no matter what. theres a car pretty close to me that has a 305. I really want a 350 but they are hard to find with an automatic transmission and Ttops. If i do find one, im looking to restore so itll have to be pretty cheap. I've also been told the 91-92 z28 350 didnt come with Ttops, which is the year i want. So im basically wondering Would this car do just as good, if not better than the 350 speed, gas, and sound wise. I aslo wont be racing for money or anything.

sully91rs

The 305 in thirdgens varies. Some are trolls, some are decent. The more recent z28 305s had 60hp more than the RS 305s. I just want to make sure you dont go buying a 91 RS with 305 expecting the z28 305 (like i did until reading this site ).

EthanH

I think its not so much the motor, but other parts on it. I plan on supping it up anyway by putting on headers,k&n air filter, induction hood, maybe a high performance chip, and thats about it. Besides if the motor is stock, or rebuilt i bet its not 60hp higher anymore, due to wear and tear.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

If it's gonna be your first Camaro the 305 will be fine. Aslong as it runs well. You can always drop a 350 in down the road. The 305 could definitly be a turd, especially if it's not TPI, but hey, it's still a V8 and it's still a Camaro! Good call with the ttops! You can always do small stuff like headers and catback exhaust that will transfer over to a 350. Again, the "go fast" difference between a 305 and 350 is pretty minimal. They are both slow. You need to spend some money on the motor if you want something fast.

EthanH

I agree with everything exept THEIR SLOW, compared to what? The miilions of cars it can smoke, or the few affordable ones it cant?

Lo-tec

When your mom can go buy a new accord or camry with a V-6 and smoke you in your stock 305, that's slow. New cars today are alot more efficient and faster.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It makes a big difference. If you're starting with a 305 TBI engine, those parts will help but not a lot. If you do the same things with a 305 TPI engine, the gains will be more and since you started at a higher point, the end result will be much higher. If you do the same things with a 350 engine, what I said about a 305 TPI and them some.

When I went from 305 to 350, it took 1.3 seconds off the high-altitude ET, went 5 MPH faster in the quarter, and I get the same gas mileage with the 350 as I did with the 305.

It makes a difference where you start.

EthanH

Lo-tec, i agree it may smoke you with a new accord Verses a 200,000 mile 305 worn down engine, but if you rebuild it to new then put the parts on that i said earlier, the accord wont stand a chance. Also five7kid your right, but i was comparing the the same engine, yeah tpi is faster but i was meaning a 5.0 in an Rs and in a Z28 isnt going to make much difference, sorry for the misunderstanding. Now so i dont get repeats i know the 350 is faster. What im wondering is for my first car is the 305 going to be straining when the 350 is going strong, how much faster is a 350. Would you think a 305 would be a good car for my first car?

sully91rs

I was in your shoes the same time last year (unfortunately, I wasn't aware of this website). I checked out an 88 RS (305), test drove a 91 z28 (350 l98), and ended up buying a 91 RS (305). The 91 RS was in the best condition (by far). The 91 z had 130,000 miles, and it felt it. The ride was unbearably rough, and it felt like it was out of steam. I could feel the torque, but it had no get up and go.

Go pick the car thats in the best shape... unless you buy one with less than 30,000 miles, they will all need work.

Lo-tec

350 TPI would be my choice, find a low mile non-abused one (good luck) and you've got a solid 14 sec car stock, 13's with bolt-ons. 305 TPI second choice, and there is no comparison between either one and a 305 tbi (bone stock=turd).

As far as comparing to newer cars, there are alot of new mom & pop cars in the 14's off the showroom floor.

I wouldn't waste my time with a 305, I've done the same thing as five7kid.
Stock 84 305 HO-mid 15's
Properly working j/y trans-high 14's
Cam, intake, headers, etc-bottom 14's
Swap to a used swirl port 350 with mild cam-13.60's

The difference driving a 350 vs a 305 is night and day, torque torque torque, and no, I'm not towing anything either.

Mcdamit

if your gonna get a 305 get the tpi 5 spd... its just as fast as the 350... if u want an auto get a 350 car...

note the engines are indentical to look at so learn to read the vin...

Doom86

Eathan you have a LOT to learn my friend!

my olds alero would absolutely smoke my z28 305, even when it had a tune-up. The old's was just a little "nothing special" 4 cylinder in stock trim, that propably ran high 15's downhill. now once i re-done the exhaust from the heads to the tail-pipe (hedders, 3"catback), it was a race. when i added the performer RPM intake and learned how to tune the qjet good-bye alero, hello performance. learning to tune it unleashed a good majority of power. but even then its still bottom of the food chain "perfromance". i'm getting excited about beating a 3000lb 4cyl car!

the "mods" you listed will do practically nothing for power. Hedders are a good start, but they are bottle necked by the rediculously tiny exhaust.

when you're getting a bone-stock 3rd gen you're getting a "torquey" (is that even a word?) engine. None of them pull well up top (see horsepower) due to either induction, poor cam, poor exhaust, or poor factory tune. TBI, carb, and TPI are all HP limited.

305's are fun motors, but anyone will tell you as soon as you tear into the bottom end of a 305 you're wasting money if speed is what you need.. my 350 engine was 50$. It needed rebuilt, but so does the 305.

Do you plan on racing the car?

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Our cars are slow. Face it, they were fast in the 80's but now a stock Civic Si beats up on us. Like I said, that stock 305 is gonna be slow. I'd buy it because it's a Camaro and has ttops. It'll be fun to drive. Again, it will be a good starter car. Personally, I'd wait to find a 5 speed V8 car. You can spend 300 bucks on a catback system and make it sound good.

If you want a fast car, buy it and then pull out 5k bucks for a new tranny, rear end and motor. Getting into the 12s and 13s in the 1/4 is a good start, that will put you up against LS1 Camaros.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

If this is your first car, I'd recommend a 305 actually. It's a good (damn near indestructable) mill, you CAN make decent power, you can learn all about chevy small blocks, AND YOU WON'T KILL YOURSELF!

I had an LG4 as my first camaro, and it was fun, but I'm GLAD I had it. I got to learn the ropes, got to learn to work on it, and got to learn about cars in general. It was slow (still did a hell of a burnout though) and I didn't kill myself in it.

If I had started with one of my LT1s, I'm sure I would have died lol (or had more than the 7 tickets and 1 year probation I'm on now...). The first time I drove my old '94 T/A, I stepped on it like I had stepped on the LG4 to just make it move a little faster than everyone else at a stop light.... that LT1's rearend slid right out from underneath me and damn near smacked a truck. Now with my '97 6-speed car, I'm a little more knowledgable about power and the responsibilities that come with it, as well as how to USE it. Much more to driving than just hitting the gas and steering.

So get a 305. You can get a cool 91/92 Z28 (like you want) with a 305 and a 5-speed stick. You can get an auto too if you want and they both come with T-tops since they're the 5.0L version.

It'll be a nice ride, sound good, be fun, fuel injected for good MPG and you'll be able to learn all about it. When you get a little more knowledgable you can start modding her. Swap the cam, get some heads, port the intake, put headers on, get a catback, WHATEVER. And the best thing is, later you can drop the 350 in and all of those parts will swap to it.

As for a pure power standpoint, a 5.7L 350 will always make more than the 305. "No replacement for displacement." Not to say the 305 isn't a good engine, it's just limited. To get technical, it's limited largely because of the small bore. It isn't a true 4" bore block (like the 350) so the valve size is rather puny compared to a 350.

Also TPI isn't a great system. It'll make alot of torque (fun from the stoplight though) but don't expect to make much horsepower. The long tube runner setup (TPI..) is tuned to make power in a certain rpm range (dying before 4400) and make lots of torque in it. It dies horribly in the top end and SUCKS on the highway. To borrow ShiftyCapone's saying, TPI's were the best truck motors that were never put in a truck.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Correct. On the torque thing, it's not all about "pulling". Torque is what puts you back in your seat. (Torque registers on the a$$ dyno) Torque is your off the line power. Torque = fun. Torque = 50 foot burnouts. You want torque baby!

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Who was it who said, "Horsepower wins trophies, but TORQUE wins races."?

joe350

T-tops aren't all they are cracked up to be. They take a decent amount of time to remove/put back. Be sure you really want them before you make your engine choice based on them. I have a 91 350 with T-tops but it was special made at some point (after market T-tops I believe). You probably wont find a stock 350 with T-tops because according to GM they didn't make them... some people say otherwise though.

Either way, the 305 will do if you are just looking for a cheap fun car to drive. It is still a V8. If you actually plan on doing mods though, you might as well start with a 350. Its worth the extra price in the beginning.

EthanH

From what ive heard, the 305 will be just as good if not better for a daily driver who wants a cool fast car. The 305 does not have as much power but not too much of a difference either. also i dont beileve the stuff about liittle 4cylinders beating this car and it being slow, but im done arguing about that. Is their anything else to add. Also i want an automatic transmission.

ME Leigh

Torque and hp are pretty much the same thing. If you have more hp you will have more torque. All you guys are really saying is that having more hp down low in the rpm make the car more fun to drive and you can feel it in the seat of your pants. A 350 will have more average hp.

Sorry it just bugs me some times.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Horsepower doesn't exist. It's calculated. Torque is something you can measure.

However, just to set the record straight, you can have more HP without having more torque. It's called "RPMs". The same torque at higher RPMs means more HP. In fact, you will have more HP with lower torque as RPMs go up (peak HP typically occurs at a higher RPM than peak torque).

Anyway, if you have an LG4 or LO3 3rd gen, be prepared to be embarrassed by 4 cyl imports. But, your insurance underwriter will be happier if you're embarrassed. When I first took the Camaro out to the track in 2000, it was running 17's (at altitude - would have been 16's at sea level). I had a V6 Vega with 115 HP that ran that fast. And, there were all sorts of "sports compacts" out at the track that were faster - including ones that didn't have nitrous.

Doom86

Do you think all of these people just make up the fact a stock 4cyl, 4 door sedan, can beat 90% of the 305 3rd gens, Eathan? WE own these cars! We've been beat by them 4 and 6 cyl cars. but you've "heard".. thats good stuff..

Why on earth would we lie to you? Or do you just think that we are ignorant?

five7kid is a great example. he dropped 1.3 seconds off his 1/4 mile run just by swaping the block and cam (i think the cam too, the 305 had a good cam too though). he kept everything from the 305, heads, exhaust the whole deal.

here is the Cliffsnotes of this thread;

stock for stock from 3rd gens the 350 wins everytime
mod for mod a 350 wins everytime
305's can be fun to learn with

joe350

Torque and horsepower are not the same thing. Torque is more of a measure of power per stroke, and HP is more of a function of total power... meaning more at higher RPM. I forgot the actual calculation factor, but HP and torque are always the same at 5250 RPM. A rule of thumb is that the better car will have more area under the torque curve. Especially for a daily driver that will be ocasionally used on the drag strip.


Just remember that torque and horsepower numbers are only representative of peak numbers. What you really want to look at is the curve it creates.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

What really matters are track times

How does the joke go... "What do a 500 hp supra, a 700 hp supra and a 900 hp supra all have in common?"

....


12 second E.T.s

1985Irok

Don't think I can add anything new, but i will motion for the 305. That's what I have. It may be slow, but it can be fun to drive. Also, if this is your first car like this, you wouldn't have any reference point anyway unless you've already driven a really powerful car. It won't feel that slow to you if you haven't driven anything "beefier" You'll enjoy it a lot if you don't race too many people (lol).

EthanH

Doom86, first off my name is spelled Ethan. Now i believe if you rebuild the engine correctly, get a performance chip so the engine will run better then add extras like headers, air induction, dual exhaust, etc no foreign car is going to beat you with a 4cylinder. My friend had an 88 5.0 mustang stock and it was fast. I may be wrong, but im to stubbern to think otherwise.

EthanH

Heres an example. My brothers 95 completely stock 4x4 5.7liter tbi 350 with mud tires went a little over 100 on an old country road. When it was bought the owner was a coal miner, the engined had mud coal and sand in every possible place. All we did was rebuild the engine. So a 305 supped up camaro, just doesnt even seem realistic to me.

ME Leigh

HP is not always a calculated value, it is directly measured on some dynos. Torque is a work term, HP is a power term or work per time. Enough said if you don't understand that....

ME Leigh

HP is what is really important. How fast you can do work. Torque means nothing really its a static measurment.

sully91rs

Doom86

actually, buddy, if you want to get technical your "name" is spelled EthanH.

A ford 302 and a chevy 305 are completely different engines. You REALLY need to do some research. Use that search function and you wont sound like a moron. You are right about something though, foxbody mustangs are indeed fast cars.

this is pointless, we're wasting ligaments in our hands here trying to teach you something that you asked and wont except as truth. now you can either take what was said and learn from it, or put your induction hood and chip on your 305 turd and be slow. I gotta pretty good idea what choice you're taking with your attitude. now i see why these "305 vs 350" threads get locked so much.

joe350

Everything you mention here besides headers is pretty much a waste of money, BTW. Real power gains will be seen from intake manifold, heads, cam, headers, exhaust piping and muffler, and displacement. The 350 is a better engine because of its larger bore which decreases the level of valve shrouding. If you don't understand concepts such as valve shrouding, air velocity, resonance, etc then you may as well get a 305 while you learn. It is still a fun engine.

EthanH

Doom86, my name is spelled Ethan, my login name is EthanH smart one. And anotherthing, the only people argueing is me and you, everyone else has put a stament i actually consider. Also im not the one trying to make an argument, i said your not going to change my mind, i said i might be wrong, and i never said anybody was liar, i said IMO that the camaro can become a fast car if done properlly and put newer products on. Yes i may need to do research, i might be wrong, but i dont care. NOW ILL SAY IT AGAIN IM DONE ARGUING ABOUT THIS THE 305 IS A PIECE OF CRAP THING, but in some way i know youll post something else to make an arguement, and your why these post get locked. I tell my opinions and admit that i may be wrong, but you wont accept that.

EthanH

Joe350, i reealize these parts may be a waste of money. I wont be able to afford the more expensive stuff so these will do the most in my price range. Also later down the road i plan own a new 350 motor. You sound like you know alot about what will do most, is their anything thats not over like $500 that will do alot? I dont know much about engines but my dad does. Thanks

rx7speed

my little zero cylinder car has beat a few of the v8 thirdgens with the 305.
a little 4 cylinder depending on which one shouldn't have too much of a problem even moer so with the TBI or carbed ones.


rs vs Z28 is a BIG difference. about a seconds worth in a 1/4 mile race.

305 with carb or TBI isn't very fast stock. we are talking on avg high 15's to mid 16's with a few pulling a mid 15. many many 4 cylinder cars now run that.
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performance chip is a waste of time. it is a cookie cutter tune that is supposed to work for every car out there. at least if you are talking the chips like hypertech and such. they are not worth the time or money.


dual exhuast is going to be a toughy unless you are good at modding the car. you dont' have much clearaance and either have to sacrifice ground clearance or wiggle those little bad boys up over the axle and hope they fit ok. it isn't an easy feat.


lets see little civic hatch with an engine swap beating a lg4 with the mods you listed. easy as cake. hell wouldn't bem uch of a race for the little civic.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

A modern 4-cylinder economy car can deliver a smack down on an LG4 or L03 powered 305 thirdgen, believe it or not. You'll need a cam swap to keep up.

As for what's going to help an engine make power.. an engine is an air pump first and foremost. Our engines are 4 stroke engines - Air comes in mixing with fuel, is compressed, is exploded, and is expelled through the exhaust. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Anything you can do to help air move in and out of the engine better, is going to increase power. This includes your induction system (Cold air intake, open element filter, new intake manifold, good carburater - BIGGER is not always BETTER), and your exhaust system (headers, y-pipe, intermediate pipe and muffler). After that the heads and cam become restrictions and will need to be researched and replaced if you want to go faster.

There are people here making 300 hp with ported stock 305 heads on their stock 305 short blocks. It's perfectly doable. mw66nova ran a 13.0@103 (i think..) with his 305, and would have hit a 12 if he had better air. It was daily driven too.

rx7speed

top speed doesn't mean much. again my zero cylinder 1.3L has done around 140mph my 76 accord with 68hp BRAND NEW in 76 could prolly get close to 100mph though I wouldn't feel safe just cause the suspension.
question though is how long it would take to get there

rx7speed

your friends 5.0 mustang is very different the a 305. for one thing it has a 4 inch bore rather then the 3.875 inch bore of the 305. that allows for larger valves to be put into the motor allowing for more flow. even with the same valve size though your valve is going to be less shrouded then a 305 due tothe cylinder walls not being right up against the valve blocking the amount of flow you can get out of them.
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the money you would spend on these parts could better be spent in other places. heads/intake manifold/cam and so forth rather then spending the 200-300 on the chip. buy a cam kit for 120 bucks rather then spending 300-400 on the hood save it and spend it on heads for the car. you get the idea I'm sure

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

I've personally witnessed a ford pinto hit 98 mph on gps.

beachbumzT/A

My wife's TBI 350 92 Roadmaster will cruise alllllllll day at 112, however, my lo-tec carbed 350 T/A will get their A LOT faster!!!

If you are planning a rebuild down the road as your circumstances improve, go for a 350 car. The gas mileage is close to the same and you have greater performance potential for the future.

If you race a mostly stock '92 civic with 130k miles, you have a chance. If you choose a vTech prelude, del sol, or any 1-2 year old "sporty" car, you will lose. Sad but true.
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rx7speed

pinto? wow man your bringing out the big guns lets just not talk about the metro. it would smoke me to shreds.


it's sad I push the go pedal to the floor trying to race a car next to me and lose...... only to realize he wasn't even racing just drivnig normal then I notice it was a 98 year old grandma driving her old 1975 lincoln continetal or something like that. that's a big hurt to the ego

EthanH

Well i think its pretty safe to say everyone prefers the 350, so thats what ill probably go for. But what do you people not understand, i dont care what other cars other than the camaro 305 and 350. GET BACK ON TOPIC

11 Flat

OK here is another way to look at the 305 vs 350 debate

All gasoline N/A motors have the ability to make 1.4 to 1.65 ft/lbs per cid because of the BTU's in gas... You also have a 1200-1500 rpm point from where Tq peaks to where HP peaks... You also loose 45-60 ft/lbs from peak Tq to peak HP...Keep in mind this is on a properly set up motor

So let us say 305 and 350 you want them both to make peak power at 5000rpm.. Therefore, our Tq peak is going to be around 3800 rpm

This is just and example

305 x 1.45 = 442

350 x 1.45 = 507

442 - 60 = 382 peak Tq at 5000 rpm

507 - 60 = 447 peak Tq at 5000 rpm

So Hp = torque * RPM / 5252

382 * 5000 / 5252 = 363 Hp for the 305

447 * 5000 / 5252 = 425 Hp for the 350

Therefore, you got 62 free Hp just by building the 350

Now im not saying you are going to make that power or tq at those rpm... It is just and example... I do not think you will make anywhere near 1.4 ft/lbs per cid either... However, I hope you understand the point im trying to make

joe350

With both the 305 and 350 the best thing to start with is usually a good tune up. Make sure everything is running good before you start modding or your mods wont do much. This usually includes new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, air filter, and O2 sensor. Also, a good cleaning of your intake, throttle body, and IAC never hurts. Afterwards, go for exhaust mods. Any muffler kit with mandrel bent tubes is good. The Holly aero chamber muffler seems good. If you can afford headers after that, then go for it. 1 5/8 diameter pipes at biggest, especially if you have a 305. Thats as far as you'll get with your money for now.

vortech35091RS

Couldn't have said it any better then that!