BigWhiteGTP

Okay, over the last 2 weeks I have ripped apart the motor to put in new head gaskets. Everything went back in fine, no problems but now it won't start. The motor turns over so the starter is good, right?

Well I did a search and the only 3 things that would apply to my situation are:

1) I put the rockers on wrong, didn't set proper valve lash. What I did was I tightened it down until the pushrod would twist in my fingers. I did that to all of them and I noticed that some of the rocker bolts weren't as far down on the studs as others so I evened them all out to look the same. Does that make sense, in other words I might've overtightened them?

2) I bought Accel DIY wires, maybe I made them wrong and the spark isn't getting through. But it seemed so straightforward even w/o supplying me directions. So I removed the #1 plug and tried to start the car to see if there was any spark....there wasn't. But would I even see anything doing that? Because there was nothing. But I believe the wire that I used to see the spark was a stock spark plug. So that points to the distributor?

3) First time doing anything with a distributor. I marked the position from when I removed it. I remember marking #8 below where the 8th spark plug wire was and I drew a diagram of how the distributor sat. I lined the cap on how it was when I wrote #8 on. Following me so far? Sorry for the newb terms and descriptions here. I put the whole distributor in how I felt it was before I removed it. It slid into place and I could turn it with my hands. Then I put the clip on it and tightened it tight. Should that clip be loose?

4) That thing that sits underneath the plenum, kind of brown and metallic, not he FPR but the bigger one right smack in the middle, well I couldn't find the vacuum line that goes to it. Could that do something horrible?

Anyway, I'll continue searching, in the meantime, but the car has been down for over 4 weeks now and I need it to run. And I am not ready to take it to a shop, but I can't wait forever.

So does anyone have any ideas? I plugged everything else in. The distributor is plugged in.

Please if you have an idea or if one of those reasons says BINGO, let me know.

Thanks,

-Kevin

84z28350

First off the no spark is definately part of your problem...

Are you getting +12v at the dizzy on the pinkish colored wire? If you are it may be the module/coil but im guessing its the wires.


For the valve lash, sounds like you definately have to start over on that again... Their is a certain pattern you have to lash them in. You tighten certain ones then rotate the crank a bit, then do some others and so on. Search that and you will find the proper method for doing it.


As for the big brown thing, thats got to be the EGR valve. That is not going to cause a no-start just crappy running and cause a code or 2.

BigWhiteGTP

Thanks for replying. I'm away from the car, where is the pink wire? Is that one of the connectors on the back of the distributor?

84z28350

Coil in cap HEI is it not?

If so it is on the connector that goes to the cap. Also make sure you didnt switch it around and put the tach wire on the +12v and the +12v on the tach connection! The cap should be labeled for the tach/12v connections...

BigWhiteGTP

Coil in cap hei, whatever came on the car I imagine.

Those 2 connectors, do they have the same connections? I mean could I have put them in the wrong place, OR would that be impossible because the two are completely different connection wise?

What do you think about the method I tightened the rockers down, does that sound ok or could that be the next problem after I get spark?

Thanks alot for helping me here. I really REALLY appreciate this.

-Kevin

84z28350

Connectors are identicle and can very easily be swapped around if your not careful!

TheWesman

Congratz on your first major engine repair.
This is what I see.
For an internal combustion engine to work you need 3 major things.

1) Compression
2) Spark
3) Fuel

From the description you gave, I believe you probably have some of your rocker arms set out of wack. Go back and redo this. The rockers that you observed as being higher, is because those were trying to push open the valves. You want to fix this first because the last thing you want is to start a fire backwards through your engine or bend a valve. This could happen if your intake valve is stuck open. You gotta set the lash with the lifter for each rocker on the backside of the cam lobe for that valve. Which means you have to turn the engine’s crankshaft.

As for checking and setting spark, you need to insert the distributor so that the rotor points to appropriate wire for the appropriate cylinder’s compression stroke at top dead center. Check your spark by pulling a plug and grounding the treads against the engine block while you try and turn the engine over.

Fuel check can be as simple as trying to start the car and sniffing the exhaust pipe for raw gas. Or you can listen for an electric fuel pump or check the pressure at the shrader valve on the fuel line. Or in the case of a carb’d engine work the accelerator pump.

Warning: **Before trying to start a reassembled engine the first time, do it outside away from anything that can start fire (no paper towels or your garage if fire shoots out the intake). And keep a fire extinguisher handy**

I almost burned a car to the ground once when a miss aligned distributor cause a backfire and shot a fireball of liquid gasoline in a 3 foot radius all around the engine bay.

TheWesman

<O

camaronewbie

If concerned about the cut-to-length plug wires - check them one at a time with a ohm meter for continuity - I did mine a few days ago and crimped a bad one - had to cut 1/2 inch off and redo it.

BigWhiteGTP

84z, I am at home now and just checked the distributor connectors and they are different and no way can they be missmatched. Unless there are some connectors underneath the cap that I don't remember, which very well could be the case. Are there?

The Wesman, I need to clarify what I meant on the rockers. They are not all at the same angle. What I'm talking about is that when I was no longer able to twist them in while tightening the nut on the rocker bolt further. What I did was I screwed the nut on equally on all rocker bolts, eventhough the pushrod twist was gone. Let's say that on some nuts were 4-5 bolt threads lower than others. I simply tightened the rest of the bolts to be at the same thread depth. Does that make sense?

Camaronewbie, I might have messed up the wires, but I doubt I messed all of them up.

I did check the fuses inside and the VATS fuse was blown. So I put in another 10 fuse and it still did the same thing. So that is eliminated.

DLV555

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that's not how you set the valve lash, or at least it doesn't sound like it based on your description. You said you pulled the spark plug and checked it for spark...but did you ground it to anything? If not then you won't see spark.

When setting lash I like to go straight down each side. Some people say to do it in firing order, but that requires extra walking around and, in my opinion, a greater chance of getting mixed up. Start at #1 and do the left side, then go to #2 and do the right side. Start at #1 exhaust and make sure the cam is on base circle, this is important. The best way to make sure of this is turn the engine over until the #1 intake valve is closing or has just closed. Tighten it until you have taken all the slack out of the pushrod like you mentioned, and then turn it another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Go to #1 intake and rotate the engine until the #1 exhaust valve starts to open and adjust the same as the previous one. Do it this way all the way around. If someone disagrees with this method, or sees any errors, feel free to chime in.

BigWhiteGTP

A buddy told me to put a spark plug in the wire, set it on the strut tower or something so the metal of the spark plug is touching the metal of the car, and try to start the car. He said I should see a spark.

I also checked for fuel pressure by removing the fuel pressure nipple and put in a screwdriver and fuel shot out. Not just a trickle, but a nice fountain.

Right now, valve lash seems to be the least of my problems. But I will deal with it when I can. The thing is no one was able to help me out. I did this all by myself. So there was a few things I have never done before.

84z28350

Hmmm, not sure why your connectors are like that... It should have one big one that comes from the module that clips into the inner socket and 2 single connectors for the +12v and tach wires.

Did you stick a DMM on that wire to see if your getting +12v at the cap?



If you end up getting spark then next thing is going to be your valve lash, if youve got the rockers cranked right down the valves will 'leak' and you will have little to no compression!

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

91's run external coil.
----------
Also. If you do get spark, I bet your 180 off.

BigWhiteGTP

But there is no spark.

Is there a ground, other than those 2 plugs, that are connected with the distributor?

Reason I ask is there are 2 grounds on the rear of the driver head that bolted to the block with 1 bolt. Are those related to the distributor? Should those be separate? 1 had a rougher 'ring" than the other. Or is that fine what I did?

berlincam86

Here is the method of adjusting the valves from the book:

Coat the bearings surfaces with a thin coating of Molykote® or its equivalent.

Install the pushrods and make sure the rod is in the lifter seat.

Install the rocker arm, ***** and nut. Tighten the nut until all lash is eliminated.

The engine must be on the No. 1 firing position before proceeding. This may be determined by placing your fingers on the No. 1 rocker arms as the mark crankshaft damper is rotated towards the "0" on the timing tab. If the arms did not move, it is in the No. 1 firing position. If they did move, turn the crankshaft one full revolution to reach the No. 1 position. Remember, the mark on the crankshaft balancer must be aligned with the "0" on the timing tab.

Adjust the valves as follows:

With the engine on the number 1 firing position, exhaust valves 1, 3, 4 and 8, intake valves 1, 2, 5 and 7 may be adjusted. Back out the adjusting nut until lash is felt at the pushrod. Tighten the adjusting nut until all lash is removed, then tighten an additional 1 turn to center the lifter plunger. Turn the engine one revolution until the 0 timing mark is once again aligned. Exhaust valves 2, 5, 6 and 7, intake valves 3, 4, 6 and 8 may be adjusted.

Install the rocker arm cover.

TheWesman

I didn't know that. Do 91 engines still get the igintion trigger signal from the distributor, or do they pick it up at the timing cover, like on late model buicks?

That being the case, check the wire that runs to the ignition coil, a bad wire here will keep all the cylinders from working.

Your friend told you right about grounding the spark plug to the strut tower. Try plug #3 also, or even another plug. You gotta get the spark issue resolved. Don't be surprised if you have a few opens on some of the wires you crimped. In the real world from my experience when changing wires, distributor and plugs, only about 20% of the time does it go without a hitch. Usually, I have a "open" plug wire, or the distributor is indexed wrong. It is rare for me that that a fresh spark system install fires up on the first 1/2 turn of the engine the first time. Almost always I seem to have to fiddle.

I suppose you know this, but after you get it running you will need to have the timing set.

To check compression on #1 you can stick you finger over hole where the spark plug goes while cranking the engine and seeing if you finger blows off.

Also double check the oil sensor connector. On most GM car's the electric fuel pump is wired fail safe through this sensor, this is done so that the fuel system won't keep pressure if oil pressure goes out or the engine isn't spinning.

BigWhiteGTP

Well, rotor, module, coil, and cap were swapped in from a car's that works. And still it doesn't start. What next?

Computer?

84z28350

Was it getting spark?

BigWhiteGTP

No spark, non whatsoever.

rezinn

I'm positive you did the valve lash incorrectly, and you need to find the vacuum line that goes to the EGR valve and connect it. You also probably have your timing set incorrectly.

Besides all of that, you should be getting spark as long as you connected everything and you had spark before. You sure all of the wiring is correct? Try replacing one of the wires you made with an old one and see if you get a spark. If you replaced any components, you might want to try swapping them back. Just retrace your steps and you might find something.

camaronewbie

You mentioned ground wires - check the pass head. My TBI cars have a ground wire attached to the pass side head as well.

Supervisor42

Check that ground wires that bolts onto the backside of the Driver's side head. These would have to have been removed when the head came off. These are the "impossible-to-get-to" ones. The one that is the bundle of black wires in the upper arrow of this pic supply important grounds to the electrical system.
The engine will not run with it disconnected. You CAN relocate these to the manifold bolt if you detest the bolt in the back of the head as much as I do. The braid wire is a chassis ground that most people see and hook up. The other you will find hiding behind the head, disconnected. EDIT: (note to self, read the whole thread )

BigWhiteGTP

Well, the car is at the dealership. Enough is enough and it's not like I didn't try. They are professionals at a GM Dealership where I have never had a problem with them ripping me off and they always get it done right the first time.

I'll post their findings.

camaronewbie

Professionals? At a GM dealership? Wow - that would be a first in my world. My GM dealer parts manager just yesterday insisted that my 1992 RS had a 3.8 liter V6 motor! Why I bother even calling the dealer I'm unsure - I won't call again.

BigWhiteGTP

Parts guys are all in their 50's and know only of 60's and 70's cars. Can't blame them, I know jack **** about LS1's or even LT1's. So I can see where they think a 90's camaro RS will have a 3.8L engine because that's the only engine the 4th gen RS had.

Of course I'm generalizing, but you get my point.

BigWhiteGTP

**Update 3/16/6**

Good news: car started at dealership. Reason is because I mismatched a distrbutor connector with a connector that goes to the intake. I forget if it was the 3-prong or the 2-prong but it started afterwards.

Bad news: Smog pump siezed, and the belt started to smoke and shredded, stopping the motor after running for only 30 seconds. But he said it sounded fine for those 30 seconds. I wish I could've been there to hear it. $415 to fix.

So I picked up a remanned pump, brought it over to the dealership and hopefully get it back tomorrow afternoon unless, G.O.D. forbid, something else breaks. ((crossing my fingers)).

What would cause the smog pump to seize? I removed the A.I.R. valves (those black things that screw onto the ends of the manifolds and then go into the rubber hoses connecting to all the rest of the AIR stuff. Would the removal of those cause that? I don't see how it could, but I'm obviously no expert.

Any feedback is welcomed.

camaronewbie

They just do it. Tell me - why replace the smog pump if you disconnected everything and no longer have a need to pump? Why not just do the shorter belt as descibed in the tech article? See:

https://www.thirdgen.org/serpentine

And $415 to switch a wire around huh? Wow. I need to start a dealership!

BigWhiteGTP

Re-read what I wrote. The A.I.R. system is still intact, thus having to put in a new pump to remain smog legal. I could do it myself and I still can if you want to help me tow my car back home tomorrow. But I bet you can't help with that.

TheWesman

BigWhiteGTP,

Not too bad for a first time head gasket swap if the only thing you didn't do right was connect 2 of the wires. Most people won't even change their own oil. We all carry erasers. If you aren't making mistakes, you aren't doing anything. Next time you work on a car like that, use the trick of using 2 pieces of tape on both sides of the socket and plug, and mark then #1, #2, and so on...

If the dealership charged you $400 hundred to diagnose a distributor problem image what replacing head gaskets whould have cost.

You did good, not perfect.

From personal experience, I can testify that 90% of the total time spent doing car and motorcycle work is spent working out the kinks and bugs.

TheWesman

BigWhiteGTP

Thanks Wesman, I appreciate the pat on the back.

I didn't do a perfect job, but I did it all myself. Next time I must keep track of wires better. That and I need a tool belt. I wasted so much time looking for the tools I just had in my hand. With a belt, I can just put them in there and grab.

The car will be ready today. I can't wait to drive it and hear those headers. I just hope the timing isn't to far off.

camaronewbie

Sorry - I misunderstood - I saw where you removed the check valves, didn't see mention of putting them back on - I understand now.

And yes - congrats on the self-guided tour - Wesman is right, most folks don't even change oil. It's aggravating as hell sometimes, and I do it 'cause I can't afford to pay someone - but I enjoy doing my own work. My 1992 RS I've been working on for a year now, and it's inches away from cruisin' down the road - but it has a carb problem I can't seem to solve. And it's aggravating the hell outta me - I could scream! But, it's my McDonalds - I'm Lovin' It!

And, after a year of crawling around under this rag in the driveway - I know more about my car than anyone else ever will - I probably know it better than I know my own wife!

BigWhiteGTP

More than your wife, eh? Jeez. Don't you wish you can mod your wife? You know what I mean? When she gets mad at you for leaving bread crumbs on the counter, you can re-burn her memcal so SHE makes the sandwhiches for you instead. Or make her a bit stronger so she can move things by herself?

CrazyHawaiian

Well, I recently got going again on my car after doing my first ever headgasket job (did it on my 89 IROC w/ L98), ran into alot of similar problems over the past few days. First the motor wouldn't turn over, it would crank but nothing. At one point it seemed it was going the wrong rotation (by watching the serp belt while bliping remote starter) but not sure if it was a lack of sleep. Turned out my distributor was in 180 degrees wrong and somehow the gear down by the oil pump was also out of line. Took me the longest time to figgure out the gear down inside was out of line, kept finding TDC and lining up the timing tab and flipping the dist 180 and it wouldn't line up. This is the 3rd distributor I've used with this engine (original went bad, used one from friends working car then broke, then the new one) guessing the gear down in there might have moved while pulling out and dropping in all these distributors. So anyway, got the car to the point now where it will crank and start but then it dies right away. Sounds pretty crazy because its uncapped at the Y-pipe (also installed headers hehe), gonna have to hook the exhaust up so I can hear whats going on. After reading this thread I now know I didnt tighten the rocker arms properly, going to have to re-do that before going any further. But here's something I don't quite get yet ... I disconnected my EST wire and went to set the timing. I thought we were supposed to set it 6B for the TPI cars but if I put it anywhere below 0 it dies, seems to like 6A and higher. I'm guessing this is either due to me manually turning the gear down inside the motor before dropping the distributor back in, or maybe the distributor is a tooth off?? Do you guys have any tips? Did I screw myself up and now I gotta redo the cam degree or something? Thanks for your guys help!!

Supervisor42

Boy, this could start a thread all by itself (and probably should.) Top ten list? Poll?

If you could modify your wife/girlfriend, what would you buy?

Let see, the guys in Canada would probably want a block heater to make her easier to "crank" on cold mornings .

The young guys would probably want a mod for bigger brighter headlights...

Califonia guys would want a convertible conversion so they could take her anywhere topless.

Alabama guys would probably want to install a gun rack so she could finally carry the gun huntin' .

Us older guys, well "starting fluid" comes to mind, because "she won't turn over at all" or maybe a lift kit to fix the sagging body parts.

Feel free to pile on. (advance apology to the group for off-topic)

Tmoney04

very funny, I would do the opposite that I'm doing with my car right now
I want my bird to go faster, and louder
I want my wife to slow down and shut up

Supervisor42

From my buddy: I'd get her some new bushings to tighten up them wore out holes, I mean valve guides!!!