Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I'm installing a summit 8" plain jane balancer, on a 350 here. Summit timing cover, summit timing tab.
First a picture:
picture

-now, i'm using a balancer installer, hold the stud still, and tighten down on the giant nut to push the balancer on. It's getting really tough, and i'm a little wary i'm screwing it up. It also tends to rotate the motor too while i'm doing this...?

-how far do I press this on? all the way? is there a stop that i'll notice?

-as you can see with the timing tab, if the balancer was about 1/4" further out the timing marks on the balancer would be useful, now as i'm pushing this in further, the marks are going to be hidden by the tab.... What the heck? How am I going to be able to use those numbers when they're completely hidden by the tab? This is where i'm thinking i'm doing something wrong....

As usual, any thoughts or tips are appreciated

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

Push it on till it stops, it'll go. As for the tab, no offense I'm not trying to make you feel bad but the cheapy ones from summit are awful. Better off cutting a stock tab into a pointer

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

not even a spec of offense taken. I'm still kicking myself that I saved $4 and bought a 1 piece timing cover and not a 2

Since the balancer has all my timing #'s on it, should I just cut back my tab until it's just a sharp pointer at the 0 ?

alright, i'll put on some elbow grease (aka, get my gym monkey brother to help out)

Supervisor42

Grease is the word! Grease the threads and washers/bearings on the install/removal tools. It makes all the difference. If you get some on everything including your eyebrows, it will be worth it. That part should be DAMN TIGHT. If it's easy to get on and off it will not stay on. Not to worry about the timing pointer, all of the stock ones are useless. All of the good information will be on the scale of the balancer anyway. Some of the best pointers I've seen are welding rods peened flat at the end.

Stekman

Did you use some assembly lube on the balancer? It helps it slide on easier. And it's really not going anywhere as long as the crankshaft bolt is there and torqued down properly.

AlkyIROC

Not sure why it's not going on but if it's tight, try pulling it off to see is anything is being damaged. I had a balancer that had a burr on the inside. Wouldn't go on properly until I filed the burr off.

You might want to try a diesel engine trick. On the International DT466 and DT530 engines, the balancer is put on hot. I use a torch and a heat gun and get the center part to around 350F. I then pick it up and quickly slide it onto the crank before it cools. This is as per the installation instructions. The outer ring on the IHC balancer is still cool to allow me to do this. You can do the same thing by putting the balancer in an oven or on a hot plate for a while. Use some heavy leather gloves to pick it up after that.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hmm, well it is going on, but I mean i'm using 2 3' long breaker bars, one to hold the wrench, and one to turn the big nut with a crescent wrench. I'm worried i'll snap the wrench in half here....

i'll pull it off and check for burrs, I guess i'll be able to notice any easily now . I used motor oil to lube this all. If I don't notice anything, i'll heat it up in the oven then, I heard about that in the vizard book i'm going by, but I figured the correct tool would let me get away without needing to do that...

oh yea, grease the tool, that's a good idea too, oops...

Rob Wade

I WOULD NOT heat that balancer. You may damage the rubber, and you won't know that until the thing comes apart on you while its running I would pull it back off and check the id of the balancer and od of the crank. Mass production! I have heard of guys having to hone a half thou out of the balancer. It should be an interferance fit but not by alot. Good ideas above on greasing the threads of the install tool and the snout of the crank. I'm sure you know to loctite the balancer bolt in place also. I would just cut the timing tab if the timing lines run all of the way back far enough. Don't forget to grease the seal in the timing cover for the initial start-up.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

well even in the instructions for the balancer it says you can put it in a boiling pot of water, or in the oven on low for 15 mins....
I removed it, I put it in the over @230F for a little bit, not long enough, it was barely warm, then pushed it on (1/4 or whatever), then put on my tool and went to town.
here's what helped: grease the thrust washer on the tool, otherwise the big nut will grab the washer which will grab the balancer and turn the motor. So that helped, I got it on further... then I snapped my 9/16" wrench apart. I'm not a big guy, but a 3' snipe on the crescent wrench, and one on the 9/16" wrench will do it....

oh, used arp moly thread lube on the crank snout too.

I can take a picture to show how far it is on, but the visible shoulder on the balancer is still outside of the timing cover.... I'm guessing this won't work and will leak like a sieve... right?

any other thoughts or tips? I also don't want to trash the threads in the crank.

oh, the crank snout OD looked kinda rough, should it look like a bearing surface?

Apeiron

It doesn't have to be as polished as a journal, but it should be pretty smooth. Have you tried measuring the I.D. and O.D. to see what you get?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

nope, but I can....

while we're on the subject, is there an easy way to hold my 305 motor still (in car) while I remove the balancer bolt? I need the crank pulley.

Rob Wade

Do up the TC bolts and put the trans in park. That should help stop it from turning. If the snout surface is rough then there is your problem. As APE said it doesn't need to be a polished surface but it must be free from marks otherwise your just gouging the cr_p out of your balancer. Some emery cloth should get you going and check the inside of the balancer for marks.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hmm, the car has no driveshaft, I could put it in gear and see if that helps...

the crank snout has visible marks on it, but I calipered it at 1.248" at the very furthest outwards, then to 1.250" after that. Sounds like a right number.
the balancer however, at the part that goes furthest towards the motor, there's a 3/16" or so wider spot (to ease getting it on I guess), which is 1.260", then it goes to 1.240" after that.... .010" interference??
I filed the crank key that's furthest out, I could rub sand paper over the crank snount and try to smooth it out more, but is this balancer the right size?

b_the_j

I had a new balancer that had paint on the I.D. clean it off with a dremel and a fine wire brush.

Rob Wade

.010??? Jeez you'll be there all day trying to get that on. An interference fit would be more like .001-.0015!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yea, I thought that was pretty tight....

think I should try a sanding drum on a dremel or die grinder to open it up a bit?
then finer grit sand paper by hand?

Rob Wade

My only concern would be taking more off one side than the other. No anyone with a lathe? I would chuck in up in a lathe and bore .008 out of it.......but I have access to one which makes it easier. I learned along time ago, just cause its new doesn't mean its right! Now you have me worried......I bought summits 6 3/4" version of that balancer and have yet to try to install it!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

alright, I tried a dremel with a sanding drum, then cleaned it up with 400grit by hand. I smoothed up the snout of the crank, and filed the keys, and keyway on the balancer.

I heated it up in the oven for 20 mins at 250F again. Then greased the snout, and used the tool to push it on. It was kinda hard, not as much as before, then all of a sudden it just grabbed, so i'm guessing that's "all the way on".

anyone know far in the balancer it should be until the tip of the crank snout? they shouldn't be flush right? I'm 1.025" out.

I can post a picture of it if needed.

Rob Wade

Are you in the seal?

Supervisor42

The thicker balancers will be farther out from the end of the crank. Is it an 8" balancer? Try to post a pic of the seal to hub area.
EDIT: oops. That's wrong! pulley mounting surface the same distance out from end of crank.

Supervisor42

I measured 1.005 on the 88 TPI motor in the garage. If your engine is earlier with "slinger ring" behind the seal that's probably right.
EDIT: It also depends on the timing gear (double row) thickness also.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

aces! .020" out with a thicker timing chain is ok to me..... comp magnum double roller . I'm definately a ways into the seal, but it still looks like there's a lip on balancer that's outside of the timing chain cover....


pics

I couldn't get a halfway decent picture to save my life, flash in the garage, in the tiny space behind the balancer....

anyway, look ok?

Supervisor42

MAN! I see what you mean about the timing pointer. The balancer is totally underneath the timing tab. Does the timing tab bolt on BTW? I'd send it along with a that balancer2 pic back to sumit. I'm beginning to think the flattened welding rod may be better...It would certainly be easier to dial in to TDC. Don't forget this important step before dropping the motor in. Verify TDC marks align at true TDC, you can thank me later when everyone tells you the ignition timing can't be right.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hmm, yea that's an idea, I bought the timing cover with pointer as a set, and asked the guy flat out, if it would work with the summit brand 8" balancer and he said yes.... This won't work at all.
I may make something, as it'd be easier then shipping it back and getting a new one... (would a new one just be shorter?)

just out of curiosity, what do I compare the marks of 0 on the balancer/pointer to? TDC of #1 piston? Just keep rotating the motor over until the piston comes back down, then go back to the top?

Apeiron

The piston will be barely moving around TDC. You'll need a dial indicator or a piston stop. When you find it, 0 on the timing mark should be lined up with 0 on the balancer.

Supervisor42

Actually it's a little more complicated than that if you don't have a dial indicator. You can use the "positive stop" method if you still have the heads off. The main thing is that different 350s have the timing mark and pointer in different locations so the balancer and pointer have to match. Like the 88 TPI uses the 1:30 o'clock TDC, the '78 engine I have in my car use the 12:15 o'clock position. So the balancers and pointers are different by ALOT. To check the TDC make a stop to contact the piston just before TDC and roll the engine clockwise and note what the pointer says, then roll it around the opposite direction and note the reading. When it reads the same degrees (example: -16 one way and +16 the other) both ways the pointer is centered.
Edit: so you can see that any one balancer will not align correctly on both motors.

CamarosRUS

What ended up happening? I am currently trying to get my balancer back on and am having the same tough time...I broke one of Autozone's balancer installers already!

Mine went on and with about 1/8-1/4" left it won't go on anymore. I'm going to file the keyways and freeze the snout with some nitrous but have a feeling for some reason it won't work; knowing my luck with this project.

Supervisor42

You probably had it all the way on. The stock L98 I have in the garage has never had the balancer off and it has about 1/4"+ between the seal and the balancer.
Tip#1: Grease everything, especially the tool.
Tip#2: The end of the crank is a little over 1" down from the face of the balancer when it is on completely. (This may be different for aftermarket cranks)
Tip#3: It's a press fit, it's supposed to be hard as hell to get on so it won't come off. Early small blocks didn't have a bolt to hold it on, some early cranks didn't even have a threaded hole to pull it on! (showing his age)
Tip#4: Don't forget to dial in the pointer to 0 degrees after you get it on.

CamarosRUS

I got it on. There was a small burr on the snout that held everything up. Marred the balancer a little but nothing some 1500 couldn't take care of.

funkdubie

I prolly would have used a BFH as I have always done...worked for me several times. Block of wood to hammer on and a towel under the wood for scratch purposes...

Supervisor42

Now, now. It says plainly in the instructions that hammering it on will destroy the rubber bond between the outer ring and the hub.... (not that I haven't pounded on my share of 'em either back in the day)

rgarcia63

Here's a piston stop for when the heads are on.
You local speed shop should have one.
http://www.shopcranecams.com/pisstoptopde.html

Comp788

Over the years I have had my fair share of installing balancers. Stock ones (GM, Ford, Mopar) usually go right on. Aftermarker is a whole different story.

The correct thing to do was to measure the OD of the crank and the ID of the balancer. the .001 to .0015 sounds about right to me.

The best way to fit it is to take both measurements and go to a local machine shop and hone the ID of the balancer like you would a set of connecting rods. That way it is true and fits correct. Cleaning it up with a dremel will reduce the surface contact area. Now granted there is a bolt holding on the balancer but I would not want to just rely strickly on that. As some as you older members know the original 265's, 283, and early 327 did not use a bolt on the balancer. incorrect fitment on one of these motors means that the balancer is just going to fly off. UGLY!!

Beating on it with a happer can and will destroy the rubber peice on a factory balancer. Heating up a stock one will also shorten the life span of it. Once that rubber looses friction and the balancer starts to spin, your usually taking some big expense.

The best way to install one is with a nice aftermarker balancer installer. One with a roller thrust bearing and use GREASE like everyone else had said.

funkdubie

lol...i never said it was the right way..but you have to admit it is extremely effective.

sixpackmtrspts

beating it on with a hammer can also damage the thrust surface of the rear main bearing for the crank

Supervisor42

What "older members" is he talking about?
He is correct about the fitment. If it is too loose the key and bolt won't matter, it's coming off. The key is just for alignment of the timing marks, and the bolt is just to delay it coming off so hopefully the driver will notice the noise. The best way to think about it is a press on part with no key and no bolt. Is should take atleast 5 tons of force to push it on. People should be carefull if they hone the bore of the balancer. Removing even a small amount of material will greatly reduce the interference fit.
Ask some of the drag racers what it's like when one goes thru the radiator.
It's kinda like an explosion.