acidpad

400 block 30 over, hot tanked, magnafluxed,line honed

Eagle Rotating assembly ( Eagle 5140 crankshaft, Eagle I-Beam Rods, Federal Mogul "coated skirt" hypereutectic pistons .030 flat top -6cc, Perfect Circle cast rings and Clevite rod and main bearings)

Thinking some iron eagles 215cc heads 72cc

comp cl12-213-3 cam flat tappet hydraulic
501 501
292 292
244 244
110

either a victor JR or a weiand team G intake
holley 750 DP carb

2500 rpm stall converter mated to a turbo 350

what do you guys think, this is going to be a weekend street driven car that I want to have nothing but pure rage. Anything that i should look at changing keeping the same price range ?

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

I personally would drop down to a 200cc head,you'll give up just a little up top,but throttle response and low end will more than make up for it.I would also go for one of Comp's larger Extreme Energy cams as opposed to the old magnum.Not that it's a bad cam,but from my experiances with the smaller Extreme energy cams,they are light years ahead of the old Magnum grinds.

Lastly,the hypereutectics would probabley live,but I would still advise going forged.They aren't that much higher,and worth every penny for the extra insurance.

F-BIRD'88

Use a Performer RPM instead of a Vic Jr. Much better with your planned 2500stall. Lot more average torque from 2500 to 6000 rpm. On this motor it will give up nothing on the top end.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

forged pistons definately and go with some iron eagle platinums in 200cc runners with 64cc chambers, unless you're going bigger on the cam i think those heads would be perfect.

acidpad

well, the cam was just what the local speed shop recommended, I know nothing about cams. I want this thing to be wild and idle very rough. all the buildups that I look at on sites like chp show 210-215cc on the intake runner, with mild single plane intakes. Im looking at either brodix IK200, dart iron eagle platinum 215s, or http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-C...46484763QQrdZ1
but i have never heard of the last ones. Recommend a better cam for me, i want to keep it hydraulic and flat tappet.

so far, the only thing thats sealed is I bought the 750 holley DP.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

well wild and rough idle to me means a large solid lifter cam, not hydraulic. Personally I would call comp and crane and isky cams and ask them for their opinions depending on your combo.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

your gonna want a solid lifter cam...trust me, it's worth it! also, your probably gonna need more converter than that...i'd look in the 3500 range or higher.

i've got both a solid lifter cam, and a 4000stall converter and i drive the thing everday. it works JUST fine.

acidpad

lol, your probably right. what would be the advantage of going with a solid lifter though ? most of the heads im looking at buying are setup for .525 lift, and the good ones im seeing are good to about 620-650 lift; is the solid going to help that much with those spring setups ?

Also which heads should i go with, im really leaning toward the dart iron eagles @ 215. I mean, the ProComp seem interesting, but i doubt they will flow like the darts, and the brodix IK200 just seem a bit small on the intake runner for what im looking for. Really need some opinions on the heads, I want to buy some heads tomorrow. I'm looking to spend at or around 1k, but the closer I come to that number, the more I want them to be aluminum.

acidpad

So I Just bought this crank
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Crank...spagenameZWDVW

Then I read the part about it needing 6" rods.

So, why would this requir 6" minimum rods ? that doesnt make any sense to me. I'm going to call the seller tomorrow and find out whats up.


As far as cams go, one of my buddies keeps barking about hydraulic rollers everytime i talk to him, and he insists its not that expensive, but I cant find a way to do it much under $650, am I missing something or is he being a bit over zealous on the whole roller thing ?

ZEEYAA

The 6in rod is what that crank requires to clear the pistons, its the way the balancers on the crank are laid out, if you look at one that is for a 5.7 rod, the weights are not as tall, nothing wrong with that but its just the way they make them to keep you from having to put alot of mallory in them and if you ever buy any of that it will make you eyes bleed....lol. As far as a roller cam, its worth every penny of it, there are so many advantages to useing a roller cam like the lift ratio, less friction, last longer,break in, today I just dont see any reason not to use one, just save a little longer and get one, you will be glad you did. Not that flat tappets are bad but they have there place, just if you really want a preformance engine you need to invest in a roller.

HiTech5

iTrader: (4)

I highly recommend aluminum heads. If you want the motor to run, you need compression. Bumping the compression up with cast iron heads will mean that you have to run higher octane fuel. Higher than your 93-94 octane. Aluminum heads will allow you to still use 93 or 94.

I don't have the flow numbers on the IK200 heads, I'm running the RR200 heads with the CNC chambers. You can pony up the extra 300 and get a set from Summit. Well worth it in my opinion.

If you get the compression up, go with the Victor Jr. A 400 makes so much bottom end that going with the single plane will not hurt it much down low. You really need to tailor the converter to the cam/ heads. You really need a 3000 stall with the above mentioned items. I like the 292 Magnum cam!

www.geocities.com/dzperf

acidpad

Ok, so with the roller cam, lets see some of my options, I know little about cams and less about rollers. What all will i need to get to make this work on an old non-roller block like mine ? How much are we looking, I want a really agressive cam profile as well, so lets see some recomendations.

I'm really leaning strongly to a 14cc dish piston with darts Iron Eagle Platinum 215cc 64cc chamber heads. I'm probably going to buy today, unless i am really sacrificing ALOT of performance by going this route. my numbers put compression around 10:1 with that setup.

acidpad

Talked to my crank guy again today, verified it will take 5.7 rods. Phew.


still trying to decide on the cam and heads. The most I want to spend on a cam / head / lifter combo is $1500. Any Ideas ?

F-BIRD'88

A (good) hyd roller is worth about 15 to 20 hp over a flat tappet hyd cam with the same .050" duration. Requires a premium valvetrain thou as the vlave lift is higher and the rate of lift is more intense.

acidpad

is a hydraulic roller going to give me that same old school sound or is it going to be more of a smooth idle though, or does that just depend on the grind like any normal cam ?

And will I be able to get the same perf out of a hyd roller as i would a solid flat tappet ?

F-BIRD'88

Any hyd roller with more than about 230deg at .050" duration will give you that "old school sound" rough idle.
Same as a flat tappet cam will.
you can pretty well select the cam in the same way you would a flat tappet cam and expect simular idle charactoristics and basic rpm torque curve based on its .050" duration . Actually a hi perf flat tappet cam has a slightly shorter seat duration than does a hyd roller because of the contact point relationship between the roller and cam as compared to a flat lifter and its cam.

A good HYD ROLLER hyd cam will make a little more power than a good flat tappet hyd cam will ( about 20hp). but cost is higher. Ultimately thye are both limited to maximum rpm by the hyd lifter (pump up)

A good mechanical flat tappet cam will generally out perform a hyd roller at high rpm. Above 6000/6500 rpm. Of course a good mechanical roller cam will make the most power as it has the least friction and a more radical lobe lift rate..

A mechanical cam needs periotic valve lash adjustment.
A mechanical flat tappet cam will not last as long as a good hyd roller cam {should}
But a good mechanical flat tappet cam lasts a long time and gives more power and rpm than a hyd cam will.

A mechanical cam needs about 6 to 10deg more .050" duration to have the same power band as a hyd cam because of the effect of the valve lash on valve timing in the running motor. So select a mechanical cam with 6 to 10deg more duration to compare its rpm range to a hyd cam.

Which cam is right for you depends on how much $$$ ya got.

F-BIRD'88

reguardless, any rough idle cam wether mechanical or hyd , roller or flat should be matched with a hghe stall speed than 2500. A 292 magnum or any cam with 244@.050 will want a minimum of 3000stall ... 3500stall is better and recomended especially if you're going to use a vic JR single plane manifold.

I recomend this flat tappet mechanical cam for a strong 400
if you want to go the flat tappet mechanical route.

Comp cams #12-678-4 or comp cams #12-502-5.
You can look up the spec yourself www.compcams.com

use a 3500stall and 3.73-4.10 rear gearing.

F-BIRD'88

For a Hyd Roller use Comp cams # 12-433-5 or 12-443-5 or
12-444-8.

for a vic JR the last two are perfered. All will have a old school idle and want a 10" 3500stall converter.

acidpad

so what you're saying is...............
i will be pretty happy with a solid flat tappet and my wallet will be even happier (providing i dont mind maintenance)

acidpad

and what do you think with these heads matched with that cam and intake
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dart-...spagenameZWDVW

F-BIRD'88

I think they would be great. the only thing I would do is check that the spring seat and net open pressure at full valve lift is at or very close to what comp cams recomends for their cam. usually only requireing installed height adjustment. oher wise change them out to comp #986 or 987 springs. Looks good thou.

for flat tops get 72cc heads

acidpad

I've decided on a 14cc dish, which with 64 cc heads will yield me about 10.2:1 CR. I'll have to look into the spring pressure.

F-BIRD'88

Remove the inner valve spring coil to break in the motor.
reduces the spring pressure.

use GM EOS in the oil (all the time) After initial breakin just reinstall the inner valve spring coil. Do not race the motor without the inner spring coil installed. Use Shell Rotella T oil.
for a long flat tappet service life.

Do not use any other oil additives other than GM EOS.

Should be a screamer.

acidpad

I'm still learning alot here. What is the inner valve spring coil ? is that where it says "dual coil"; is it one spring inside, one outside kinda thing ?

F-BIRD'88

yup..... Is a Comp Cams Cam ok or do you have a perfered brand?

acidpad

O.D.: 1.430
I.D.: 0.697
Seat Load: 121 @ 1.800
Open Load: 328 @ 1.200
Coil Bind: 1.150
Rate (lbs./in.): 344
Titanium Retainer: 730-16
Steel Retainer: 740-16
Cup/Seat: N/A
Shims: 4754


those are the specs for the 987

# 2.050 Stainless Intake Valve
# 1.600 Stainless Exhaust Valve
# Max .700 Lift 1.480 Dia Dual Spring, 380lbs @ 1.250, 1.060 Coil Bind

thats the most specs i can come up with for the springs on the

acidpad

O.D.: 1.430
I.D.: 0.697
Seat Load: 121 @ 1.800
Open Load: 328 @ 1.200
Coil Bind: 1.150
Rate (lbs./in.): 344
Titanium Retainer: 730-16
Steel Retainer: 740-16
Cup/Seat: N/A
Shims: 4754


those are the specs for the 987

# 2.050 Stainless Intake Valve
# 1.600 Stainless Exhaust Valve
# Max .700 Lift 1.480 Dia Dual Spring, 380lbs @ 1.250, 1.060 Coil Bind

thats the most specs i can come up with for the springs on the , should the springs on the heads work ?

F-BIRD'88

They will probabily work fine. Its up to you to check installed height pressure and open pressure yourself thou. Don;t assume just cause thye come assembled they are ready to bolt on. Nothig wrong with dissassembleing them and giving them a good cleaning and inspection before bolting them on.
If you read the technical instructions for such heads as dart etc they recomend this. (doing your own cleaning and inspection)
Probabily all you'll need to do is adjust the installed height of the springs.

acidpad

I ended up ordering a set of the dart 215cc heads from a cylinder head shop and they are custom assembling them with a set of spring and valves to match a comp CCA-12-679-5 cam that is also on order. they are the 64cc head, 215cc intake runners iron eagle platinums. I still have to put in my order for pistons, but im pretty sure I'm going with a set of forged 14cc dished, though my head guy recommneded KB hyperutectics, the forged are only margionally more expensive, and i do kinda plan on runnin a shot of nitrous on down the road.

the question that kinda on my mind now that parts are arriving, how high should i be able to safely rev this thing ? so far, specs are as follows:


406 2 bolt main
Forged 4130 crank
stock 5.7 rods
arp bolts all around
forged 14cc dish pistons
clevite "P" series main / rod bearings
Dart Iron Eagle platinum 215cc heads
weiand Team G intake
holley 750 DP

F-BIRD'88

Should handle 6500 rpm easily.

You have to realise that a 400SB does not need to rev high to get the best et like a 350ci motor does. You'll probabily find that the car will et the best at some rpm lower than 6500rpm. Any higher than nessessary will just slow you down. If all it needs is 5800rpm, thats all it needs and it will live a long long life.
If you're really concerned about rpm should have kept the cam duration small.
and used a good dual plane intake to keep the best average torque range low.
More duration= more rpm. single plane manifold= higher rpm band and shift points.

acidpad

I'm not really concerned about revving it now that I have the forged crank and pistons in there, the real question is mostly will the stock rods be ok to whatever I have to spin to for peak performance ? Even with the single plane and cam, i still anticipate power band being from about 2500-6500 is, maybe a bit lower, but I just dont know what the stock rods really hold to, and with search being down, it doesnt help alot....

[EDIT] by stock rods, i mean stock 5.7" rods from another sbc, not the stock shorties.

F-BIRD'88

You won't find a definative rpm that a stock rod will give up the ghost cause there isn't one. A rod with a flaw will let go right away. ( crack stress raiser)
All connecting rods have a cycle life. My best advice is to keep the rpm down to just what the motor needs to perform best and no more. A dyno test is great for this. Easy controled breakin and lets you see exactly where the power band is. Well worth the cost in the long run. Also lets your custom torque converter builder really dial in the right converter for your exact combo, the first time cause you can tell him exactly how much torque the motor makes and where the torque is made (rpm).

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

Also keep in mind that there are some quality new aftermarket rods out there that cost little more than resizing stock rods with new bolts.I've had great luck with Eagle SIR and Renegade's entry level forged I beam,just to name a couple.

acidpad

Yeah, I have considered new rods a few times, but this build is already over its limit. Why would I need to have the rods resized or machined in any way ? These are the rods that came out of my motor when I took it apart, so someone put them in there before me, because they are not the stock length.

F-BIRD'88

Resizing does not refer to changing the rod length.

The cap is shaved and then the cap is torqued on to spec and the big hole is honed back to round and proper diameter. This is critical because all that holds the rod bearing from spinning is the crush of the rod on the bearing. If the rod is out of round or to big the crush on the bearing is wrong. Get the rods "resized"
ask your machinist. Just kidding

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

Just my 2cents,and trust me,I understand being in too far.I've owned my Iroc since 92.Couldn't tell you how much $$ I've got tied up,but I can tell you the car will never be worth it monetarily.
But rods are the lifeblood of the engine.I strongly reccomend good ones,if you don't you may regret it.$300 saved now can cost thousands later.

ZEEYAA

Acidpad , You must, must put better rods in it. you have taken the time to use your head and get a forged crank and piston, dont let it keep you from getting a good set of rods, you would have been better off skiping the crank and getting the rods, just save a little longer and do the right thing, it will be worth the peace of mind when your spinning it 6k or so especially if you going to spray it with the longer stroke 3.75. Just think what it will cost, more so than not it will be a rod failure than a crank/piston distruction. Like IROCKZ said you can spend a little more than getting the old ones redone plus most of the aftermarket rods already come with good ARP rod bolts.

acidpad

Ok, then what rods would you recommend ? Should I be looking at a basic forged I beam, or should I start looking into H beam ? I notice that most forged I are looking to have a max rating of around 500 HP, which, I have a feeling, if I put any amount of nitrous on this after its built I will be at or exceeding, and may even be kinda close N/A, so if im gonna buy new rods, should I go with the stronger H beams like

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Scat-...QQcmdZViewItem


or will a scat 4340 forged I beam work good enough ?

acidpad

or these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eagle...spagenameZWDVW

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You know those are floating pin, right?

I'd go with the Eagles, but I'm not the one in the market.

acidpad

Well, I havent bought pistons yet, so i didnt figure it mattered what kind of attachment they had so long as I go the same pistons. Saying that you'd go with eagle is a rather generic statement as well, I mean, I linked the eagle H beam, but I asked if the I beam would be ok, saying that youd go with eagles doesnt really tell me anything.

ZEEYAA

I like the eagle stuff, it is a very good product for the money, I personally use the H-BEAM rods because they give you more clearance on the pan rails because or the way they are made, they also use a great rod bolt. I would also purchase the 6in rods, but make sure you purchase the pistons for the 6in rod also because of the way the pin sets in the ring pack. Like I said you will be better off spending you money on a good set of rods and a set of SRP pistons, I think eagle offers them as a set so you could actually save some cash that way, I even think they come with the rings...Then you should be safe to 7k plus even with the spray, but according to wich cam/intake/head selection you make you want have to worry about it. Hope that helped some.

acidpad

Well, I'm not going to go 6" because that would require clearencing my block according to my machinist, so I'm probably looking at either some eagle or some ohio crank H beams, with trw forged pistons.

ZEEYAA

Sorry ACIDPAD, I forgot you alread have a 400 block, well the 5.7 will work I just like the 6in because you can make a little more power, when I looked back at your original post I saw you already had eagle I beams, why do you want to change? They would work o.k. for you, the 500hp is an estimate I know people that have run season after season with cast crank 400s with 5.7 stock rods that make min of 500 hp and have never had a problem so if you have eagle I beams you should be o.k unless your going to get crazy. And its no big deal to clerance a block, a machinist should have no problem to clear a set of 6in rods. Heck you can do that just take your time make your marks and grind a little, then recheck unitl you have your clerance.

acidpad

actually, I didn't end up buying that rotating assembly, i ended up getting a 4130 forged crank, because I got a hell of a price on it, and have yet to buy pistons or rods, already bought the heads, cam, intake, carb, etc .... only decisions left are in the rods and the pistons, and I'm pretty confident in the piston selection ive made. But would the stock 5.7 rods hold up with about 500 n/a and a 300 shot or so of juice ? Im still debating about the whole nitrous thing, but the fact is I have this much of a forged bottom end .... why not kinda thing.


Your kinda making an argument for the 6" rods though ..... I just got a new air die grinder that hasnt seen a whole lot of use, could be a nice break in for it...

ZEEYAA

That would be a good workout for your new grinder.....lol. A 300HP power level on a small block even if it a bigger one is a pretty good amount, If you have never messed with it you may want to start out with a 175/200 shot and work you way up, because even with a stout bottom end when you start shooting 300+ to it you better have your act together. You may even want to look at a progressive actuator, and for sure have a seperate fuel system and retard box. Im not saying that it cant or should not be done but you need to sneek up on it, even with the good stuff. Now if you were going to put a billit crank and maybe some high end corrillo rods/aries piston in it then I would not be worried about jumping on it, but then you are looking at a 3800-4000 min in bottom end componets.

acidpad

So I figured I'd give an update here.

The V6 is out, tranny out, engine bay is all cleaned up. I pulled the ecu and the wiring harness since its going to be carbbed and not efi anymore.

Got the block back from the machine shop, and she all clean and tested out good. Crank, intake, carb, and distributor are sitting next to me. Heads, push rods, cam and rocker arms will be here on wednesday.

Only big stuff I'm waiting on at this point is rods / pistons.. but thats soon enough.

Two questions I have at this point. 1, with the block being newly machined and cleaned up, should I cover the machined surfaces in oil to prevent rust ?

2, and I can probably figure this one out when I start poking at it, but when I eliminated the ecu wiring harness, it also eliminated the terminals to the battery. Not a huge deal, I can just run new lines to the start and distributor, but where is it suppose to hook into the chassis harness for power to the lights, radio, etc. Like i said, I can probably find something by playing with it, but if someone has a direct quick answer, let me know.

I'll start posting pics as the engine comes together over the next few weeks.