dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Ok so I am had a 385 built for me a few months ago and the car is getting to the stage of startup. I have never done anything like this before and I have been building this car for 3 years so I REALLY REALLY don't wanna mess up.

What I know:
-The dizzy is supposed to be pointed at the #1 wire on the compression stroke.
-The engine should not be filled with coolant and all, like normal, but apparently needs to have water added...or something like that, I did not understand in my searches.
-The oil is filled slicgtly high since it is not coating anything right now. I will prime it pefore startup.
-I should set base fuel press to about 4 and work my way up to 7 is the motor needs it.

Thats all I really know.


What I really wanna know is:

-How have u guys set your fuel pressure initially?
-When you prime it, can I expect a reading on my oil pressure guage?
-How do you set base timing and total advance? (those are the only 2 kinds right?)
-Is it OK not to have my PCV hooked up to the carb during start up?


I guess that is all I can think of now. Please answer anything you can. Later

-Dennis

yzinger1

you do want to have coolant in it at startup,its gonna warm up quick.sounds like you have the timing right,may have to move dist. to the front or rear to crank.this will adv. or retard the timing.when it fires up keep it around 2000 rpms for 20 mins.this will break-in the cam.start with timing set@6* to start with after break-in,see if the engine likes it there.i personally drive the car for about 20 miles to start, then change the oil,and filter .this gets the metal out from start-up.dont run it the same rpm for the first 100 miles or so,when youre going down the highway slow down ,then get down on it ,maybe 3/4 throttle,then back off,do this again for a few times this will help seat the rings.ive never ran nitrous before ,but i wouldnt run engine on it for a while .these fellows on this site can tell you more about this.hope this helps jimmy

IHI

iTrader: (1)

You need to fill your engine with coolant-I hope that was a type o on your part. You can either buy 50/50 pre mixed or mix it yourself and dump it in, get as much in the system as possbile and add as needed once stat opens and air locks work themselves out.

Adjust your carb floats now just using your electric pump, make sure gazz is even with bottom of sight plug hole for now-you'll have to fine tune once motor is up and running.

set idle fuel pressure at 7psi and leave it, I've always set mine at 8.5psi but that's me and I want as much fuel to the motor as possbile-needle and seat will stop any un-needed fuel from entering bowls under 9spi.

If priming use a special priming tools or old distributor-there is an oil passage that utilized the dizzy shaft to feed the other side of the block-just using a rod chucked in a drill will only oil one side of the motor. If you built the motor right, pre-oiling is not needed as the assembly lube will work just fine for the split second it takes get oil pumping. but to answer your question-yes you will see oil pressure on your guage when priming.

dont worry about setting timing intially-you need to get engine running first and foremost. Once it's running and if using a solid or hyd flat tappet set idle at 2K then do your preliminary checks of oil psi and coolant temp/level. once those are under control move onto your timing and that will dependin on what type of light and what curve you have in your dizzy. I've always set my timing at either 3000 or 3500 rpm so I know it's at full advance, whatever base timing came out to be it came out to be. soem motors were as low as 4* base and other as high as 10*.

PVC dont make a sheeot. Just be sure to plug any vacuum ports on engine/carb.

I used to be a believer in baby break in on a new motor easy driving), but after changing tune to run it like you stole it initally i'm forever changed. Literally- if it's gonna blow it's gonna blow, aint no amount of baby'n it gonna stop that from happening. Beating on it helps seat the rings quicker and leads to better sealing in the long run. This debate will curl some guys toes, but the other that have done it this way for years know exactly what I'm talking about.

Nixon1

[Edit: damn you guys replied fast!]

Id prime the system, not much reason not to. It will feel like a free-spin at first with the drill, you can tell when you start making pressure because there's pretty abrupt resistance, and the oil pressure gauge will start climbing. DO NOT START the motor if you cannot prime the oil pressure, something is wrong. Youre a chevy so I believe youve got to prime clockwise. (my ford is reversed)

Make sure youre at #1 TDC compression...mark where the #1 terminal on the cap is, on the dist body itself so you can see the rotor. Use your harmonic balancer and timing plate marks, line up the plate to whatever timing you intend to use...start out conservative. Once that's set, line the rotor up to that #1 mark you made and lock it down. That's gonna be your rough base timing, probably +/- 2 degrees...you can dial it in later with a light, but it will start on this. I dont know about total advance, Im imagine you have a mechanical advance distributor so it's all done with springs and whatnot. Or vacuum advance, but Im not 100% sure how they work internally I think they just add timing when low vacuum is detected (aka wot), through springs or something.

Fuel pressure, go rich....not OBSCENE rich, but rich to be on the safe side. Wittle it down from there. I dont know a hell of a lot about carbs but 4 psi seems a little low, I'll let somebody smarter than me chime in though.

So youve got a PCV valve run to a carb vacuum line? I suppose you can leave it disconnected if you plug the vacuum line, but you need another way to vent the crankcase pressure then so youd have to have open holes in the valvecovers or breathers installed....dont wanna build crankcase pressure, will cause blowby.


Im not gonna start on the best way to break in your cam and piston rings, I'll leave that to somebody more schooled in it than I am but I do know this, rpms are your friend...if you fire it and just let it idle it wont get enough oil and can wipe your camshaft etc.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thnaks for the super fast replies guys.

I will fill it woth coolant. I had read some guys saying to use just wanter for a bit, but whatever. I will fill with coolant.

I will start the PSI at 6 or 7.

I will also get the rotor to point at #1 comp. and also set the floats before.

The cam is a roller cam. If that helps anyone give advice.

I am starting to belive the fire it up and see what happens kinda thing more and more, I am just babying it cuz I spent all my $ on this project and thousands of hours. I think i am pretty close to being calm enough and content enough with what i know to be able to fire it up.

Oh i think i will use 94 octane to....decided to toss that in.
THe motor is supposed to make somehting like 500 HP. crazy cam. Check out my site if u wanna get an idea of what I am talking aobut.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

roller cam? good, don't worry about idleing it at 2000rpm then. start it up, check base timing. if you have a lumpy cam (I didn't bother to check), set static timing to 14* or so. add in mechanical, and total should be around 36*. it might be higher, so you may have to limit that. I've heard that for the first 500mi, vary speed, vary RPM, don't WOT. then change the oil. according to lunati, they say to use straigh 30W oil for break in. check with the specs on your cam though. You'll be tuning the carb and timing for a bit, don't sweat that.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Here's some food for thought, and to the few that have'nt been through a few mtors or around alot of motors it still might be uncomprehensiable. Do you think any of the new motors that get strapped to a dyno get "broke in"? They strap it all down, fire it up check psi's and temps, set inital timing and carb with it running make some little pulls to get rings on way to seating. Once it's upto temp and everything appears to be good they'll shut it down, drain the oil and change filter. Cut open filter to see if motor is doing anything unusal internally. Fill it back up, get engine to temp again and start beating the snot out of it....tuning for max pwr. Unstrap it, load it in the customers truck and away they go to the race track, street, whatever.

Break in for roller cammed engine....start it up, get carb adjusted, set timing. set idle mixture screws, check vauum reading for holley equiped engine and shut it down. install correct PV, restart double check timing, float level then beat the snot out of it. done. We typically drive ours around for 30 minutes or so to be sure break in lube gets washed off everything, come back drop oil, check filter and if all looks good, new oil filter (this time you can install synthetic if you choose to and I recommend) and have as much fun as your wallet and nutz allow. Roller motors and especially solid roller motors are the catz azz. No mess setting lash and no break in...just a matter of driving the heck out of it initially to get rings seated quicker. Ask how many motors I've been around that went stright from start up and inital timing check to drag strip and started making passes before oil was changed..too many to think about and all last if revs are kept in check.

ZZ28ZZ

Good advise so far.
Here's a couple of extra tid bits I like to do in no perticular order:

Double check none of the plug wires (or any other wires) are
laying on the exhaust.

Check that you have the plug wires on right.
Go drink a beer.
Come back and verify the plug wires are still on right!

Double check all the vacuum ports are connected or plugged.

Double check there's nothing in the way of the belts/pulleys/fan blades.

Verify oil level on dipstick.

Verify the throttle blades are closed or nearly closed.

Verify throttle operates smoothly/properly.

Verify you have enough gas in tank.

Look under car soon after startup to see if anything is leaking.

Have a squirt bottle with water handy to do a quick check for vacuum leaks where the carb meets the intake and where the intake meets the heads..

Fill radiator and install cap, but leave cap loose.
Set the heater controls to blow hot air (this will purge the air from the heater core).
Wait for the top radiator hose to get hot. When it gets hot the thermostat is open. The radiator water level will drop when this happens. Be ready to add more coolant. Top it off and close the radiator cap completely. Keep an eye on the water temp.

Fill oil filter with oil before installing it.

Check for oil press and fuel leaks immediately after start-up.

Have air cleaner installed to prevent a fire if the timing/mixture is waay off and it spits back thru the carb. Don't use starting fluid.

Have a fire extinguisher handy (I'm serious).

Have a flash-light or drop light handy.

Have a screwdriver (or whatever it takes) handy to adjust the idle speed.

Have timing light already hooked-up with special attention to where the wires lay in relation to the spinning belts,pulleys, fan blades, etc..

Adjust the distributor hold-down bolt so its just snug. You want to be able to turn the dist by hand but with some effort required. Have dist wrench handy so it can be locked down once set.

Listen for odd noises. Listen for tapping rocker arms.

If you have a top post battery, have one of the cables tight enough to start eng, but loose enough it can pulled off in an emergency. Have large set of pliers handy to pull off batt cable if its getting really hot.

Don't be alarmed by the exhaust headers/manifolds smoking. There always seems to be some residual oil/grease on them after installation that will burn off.
Be outside if possible. If you do start eng inside a garage/shop, having a strong fan handy to blow away the smoke from the exh is nice.

Good Luck!!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hey i've got a question,
what if your fuel lines are probably empty (in my case, since I replaced a lot of those type of thing). It'll be cranking over a bit to get fuel up to the carb from the tank.... Can you fill your fuel lines, or float bowl from a gas can?

ZZ28ZZ

Yes.

On a quadrajet, there's an extra hole on the top next to the hole where the air cleaner hold-down rod screws in. This hole is the fuel bowl vent. The fuel bowl can be filled from that hole. I once ran out of gas 2 blocks from a station in my ol' 67 goat.
Bought a coke cans worth of gas and poured it in the vent hole. Eng started normally and I made it to the station.

Haven't owned a Holley in years but I'm pretty sure they have a plug that can be removed that you could use to fill the float bowl.

Just make sure the gas/container is clean since you will be bypassing the filter.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

With a a holley you can just dump fuel down the vent tubes for the bowls. just be sure to wrok the throttle a few times prior to starting to get fuel dumping down into the cylinders, after a few cranks the pump will suck/push enough into the carb to get ya going.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

This is a good list of stuff. I'll be using some of it too. You could maybe even "sticky" it. Lots of stuff to double check before you fire it up.
-Greg

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Damn thanks a ton guys. I will def make a check list of everything I have learned or been reminded of. All I really need to do is learn to tune the carb. I have read a book about it, but i have never had to do it. I am sure it will make sence once I can acctaully hear the car. But that is not too important as long as I do not do something drasticaly stupid.

Fire extinguisher sounds like a great idea, just in case.

If I am lucky and have enough free time, I will def. try and fire it up with weekend. I will post video clips and pics too. THanks again guys.

ps- Keep the checklist comin'. No matter how stupid or obviouse. After we get them all out I will make a post or a thread that has them all listed out, maybe even in some kinf of order.

Like a walkthough.

Later

-Dennis

IHI

iTrader: (1)

You can make a list a mile long and it always seems you forget that one little thing and slap yourself LOL!! but your waay ahead of the game with a full roller since theres nothing to break in so you can shut the motor off as many times as you need to with no chance of damage. I remember my first 355 flat tappet, we had to shut it down 5x's due to stupid lil things from being in a hurry to make the race the next morning, thought I'd lose the cam, but got really lucky on that one

Along with the fire extinguisher, keep a heavy quited type blanket. We've had to use both methods in the past, but the blankey is always the first since the extinguisher's are a REEEAAALL big mess to clean up and clean out of the motor.

Also make sure you have solid body grounds coming off the engine. I made one that went from my engine mount (solid mount) to the chasis and then from chasis to engine again with a smaller ground strap material. We were trying to fire a BBC for 2 days, did some tests and thought we found ouot it was a bad msd box...in the end it was a faulty ground wire that was temped in place but never fully tightened. ground wires are a killer and a leading cause to most electrical problems

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

No need to put miles on it. We dyno every motor that goes out of the shop. Start it up and break it in, change the oil and let her rip.

Use a non-detergent 30wt oil, fill with coolant and get the timing close.

PRIME IT. Don't count on the assembly lube not to mention it's nice to know you've got good pressure before you fire it up.

Fire it up and keep an eye on the temps and pressure. We usually put a little load on it with the dyno, but you can do the same by driving it easy a bit. A little load helps the rings seat. Let the oil and water get up to operating temps then park it. Let it cool off while you pull the valve covers, go through the valve adjustment again (even if it's hyd. roller), change the oil and cut open the filter. Take a look around and look for leaks and loose bolts and if all is good, fire it back up and let everything get warm again and cool it off once more. After that you should be good. I like to run them for about 20-30 minutes to give the rings time to seat and all the parts to wear in and say "HI" to one another. After two heat soaks and an oil change (make sure you get the non-detergent oil out of there) start your fine tuning.

Whatever you do, make sure it's not running pig rich. You don't want to wash the rings out before they have a chance to seat in.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

So when getting it ready so that it will fire up....

-Do I have to fill the carb with gas though the breather holes like was stated above or is there a better way to do this?

-What is the best way to find/set your #1 piston on its compretion stroke?
-Once the above is done, then do you take the dizzy all the way out and rotate it to get it to point to the #1 plug?

-I have a timing light but no tab mounted on the cover right now, I just want fire this motor up and let it run for 20 minutes. Do I need to have the tab to set the initial timing?

-When I fire up the electric pump, I am not gettting anything over by the carb. I might not have enough gas, but i dumped 4.5 gallons in back there. And I can hear the gas riculating from the pump back to the tank, so I know it is moving around.

- I just want to get some kind of reading so I can set initial pressure. I have no idea what it is set at out of the box, not to mention I played with it before when I didn't know why I wasn't getting any PSI from the pump.
-The instructions do say something about the pump not supplying pressure out the outlet till you fire it up the first time, but if that is so, then how do I get it to start for the first time?




*** damn this car has come so far, but now all the little details of getting it started are eating away at my brain and I can't seem to get all my questions out......Hope some of you guys out there can help.

I really just need to talk to someone in person how has doen this. If anyone lives in or neer Boston and is willing to help out for a couple hours, then PLEASE PM me. Thanks again.

Toehead

I went through your cardomain page, and man am I impressed. That car is a thing of beauty. How do you plan on passing MA inspection?

91GTABird

So how do you setup a Hyd. Flat Tap cam aside from a roller cam?

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

Hyd flat tappet you need to start it up and keep RPM between 2500-3000 for around 20 minutes. Not necessary on a Hyd roller.

91GTABird

Can you explain why Dialed_In? Thanks

IHI

iTrader: (1)

In a nut shell, a flat tappet cam is just that both surfaces on lifter and cam lobe are flat so you have flat steel to steel contact. a hyd flat tappet is ground with some negative pitch on the lobe to help keep cam from wanting to walk out of the front of the block so since the lobes are pitched the lifters push the cam towards the back of the block and essentially put pressure on the rear cam gear forcing it to mesh with the distributor gear. roller cam lobes are ground flat meaning cam will walk out the front and hence having to preload front of the cam with a button to keep it in place.

Either way the purpose of the 2-3000rpm for a flat tappet cam is to splash engine oil up onto the cam lobes to 1. keep it cool from all the metal to meatl contact and 2. provide the needed lubrication between the metal on metal contact since the hot oil and friction between the lifter surface and cam lobe will be "washing off" the assembly lube, taking away the lubricating properities at inital start up and prior to oil going through entire oil gallies before it drips onto the lifters and allows them to spin/lubricate as they should. When the eninge is at the higher rpms it literally slings the oil onto the cam allowing above described to take place. Also the oil plays a critical role in aiding the lifters to spin freely in the lifter bore, if the lifters were allowed to sit in one position and not spin, it turns into metal sanding paper and grinds down the cam lobes.

ROLLER cams on the other hand use a wheel that is in contact with the cam lobes and have either vertical, horizontial, or spider bars that STOP lifters from spinning in their bore to assure 100% straight wheel alignment from the lifter body to the cam lobe. since the lifter is using a wheel there is very little resistance and no way to grind down a cam lobe, so keeping the engine at higher rpm's is unnecessary since assembly lube and oil trickling down from rocker arms provide suffiecent oil to keep everything lubed up and working properly.

88_Import_Slaye

I have a friend that runs a turbo Fox Body (600hp+ 15psi), he said that not babying the motor after initial break in helps the motor last longer. those might not be his exact words, but that is basically it. He's not stupid, so dont bash him. Has anyone else heard of this? He is more into the street race/drag race scene so he might be talking about crews that rip their motor apart after each season for rebuild.

didnt mean to take over the thread.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Your buddies right. I used to have a link saved to a website where they did a "baby break in" and a "run it lik you stole it" break in. cant remember exact time duration before breaking motors down to check innerds, but the motor that was beat on actually had better ring seal, hardly any carbon build up anywhere, and still made more hp than the babied break in motor.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I agree.

I break in a motor exactly like I'm going to drive it for the rest of its life.

I don't find it particularly difficult to build and install a motor, tighten every bolt, fill it with all its fluids, plug in every vacuum line and hose and wire, make every adjustment (TV cable, timing, shifter, whatever), close the hood, reach in the window, and crank it up; and within 30 seconds of first firing it up, back it down the driveway and go for a ride. It might take as much as 2 minutes with an auto trans, to finish filling it with fluid (the other 4 quarts or so that wouldn't fit until it runs the first time).

It's as much a mental discipline as anything: don't be so hung up on just "getting it to run" as soon as possible, but rather, FINISH THE INSTALLATION before firing it up. You'll have alot less trouble afterwards, than half-assing it just barely enough to run. Resist the temptation to get to crank-up as soon as you possibly can, by bypassing other things or leaving stuff undone. Start-up should be THE VERY LAST THING YOU DO, at the end of COMPLETE assembly. Don't start the motor until the car is actually READY TO DRIVE.

I prefer to go straight to the freeway, and make a couple of passes like this: at WOT, all the way through 2nd or 3rd gear from about 2500 to 5500 RPM, and then let off the gas and let the motor drag the car speed back down to 2500 RPM; and repeat about 10 or 15 times. That way, you heat the rings up and seat them, then immediately bathe them and the cyl walls in oil sucked up by the vacuum. Go to a little higher RPM each time. Imagine that you're on about a half-mile asphalt oval with 50' radius turns, and no brakes, turning hot laps; that's about how you want to drive it.

I use some kind of normal 30 weight motor oil for flat-tappet motors; nowadays that would be one of the diesel oils such as Rotella T or Delvac or the like, since those have the zinc additives that cams need. Although I haven't built any flat-tappet motors since I can't remember when. Or, use regular 30 weight such as Superflo, and add a can of GM EOS to get the zinc. Then change the oil after 500-1000 miles.

For roller cam motors, I do the same thing as the factory: synthetic from birth. Those don't need a short oil change at first, since there's so much less metal debris than flat-tappet motors get, most of which comes from cam lobes. They can go a full interval (5000 or whatever). I usually run regular street oil on the street after break-in, in both kinds of engines; synthetic 10W-30.

Once you learn to build a motor without any hidden defects, and WITHOUT LEAKS, and you learn how to set a distributor and time an engine to within a couple of degrees without it running, and adjust the valves correctly on the stand, then initial start-up becomes much less intimidating. Learn to think like the factory. You think they have a small army of people twiddling stuff as cars come off the production line? Cars that leak and have to be re-worked? Learn to do things the way they do, adopt their techniques and disciplines, and you'll get the same results: a motor that fires RIGHT UP, and drives off within seconds of initial start-up.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Per the instructions included in my just-received Comp Cam:

"Important: On hydraulic or mechanical (solid) flat tappet cam that require dual valve springs, the inner spring must be removed during break-in. This allows the lifters to establish rotation and develop a good wear pattern. As soon as the engine fires, bring the RPM up to 2000 to 2500 during the first 30 minutes of operation. Slower engine speeds will not supply the camshaft with an adequate amount of oil for the break-in period. The engine RPM may be varied periodically between 2000 to 2500 to direct oil splash (sic) different areas of the camshaft. After the 30 minute break-in period, change the oil and filter again to be sure all contaminants and break-in lube are remove (sic) from the engine. The inner valve springs can now be replaced."

In the back of the instructions is a page of "Common Mistakes". The need to remove the inner valve spring is repeated. They also "strongly" recommend installing a new distributor gear, and to lube it generously with cam lube when installing.
"Always use plenty of cam lube on the lobes."
"Always pre-adjust lifters before startup and break-in to allow for proper lifter rotation."
"Never continue cranking the motor if it doesn't start immediately."

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Actually, they said more before what I quoted, including:

"It is very important to "fire" the engine as quickly as possible. The only lubrication that the camshaft and lifters receive is from oil slung off of the crankshaft. First, be sure to use fresh clean conventional SAE 30 or 40 wt. oil and a new filter. Fill the new filter with oil before installing. This will allow the eninge to achieve oil pressure immediately. Timing the engine properly the first time will be necessary for the engine to start quickly. The following procedure is simple and effective. Rotate the crankshaft in the normal direction of roatation until the number one (1) cylinder is coming up on the compression stroke. Align the timing mark on the ballancer /damper to the recommended factory initial timing setting, making sure that both valves on number one cylinder are closed. Install the distributor with the rotor pointing to the number one plug wire on the cap. The engine should fire up as soon as it receives fuel."

Priming the engine before installing the distributor is a good way to insure the filter and oil galleys are full before you go to start the engine.

In case you hadn't gathered it yet, the cam break-in (for flat tappet cams) is much more critical than any other break-in of the engine.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I don't plan on passing inspection. Lets just say i know a guy.


Can someone write a walkthrough about how to get the dizzy pointed the right way and have the rotor also facing the righ way.

I think I am gonna get the motor broke in and running in my garadge before it is time to drive it around, mainly cuz i still need to paint the car.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

later

-Dennis

ps- thanks for the compliment on my page.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

The distributor can face any way you want it, as long as you clock it so that the rotor faces #1 terminal on the cap.

Bring #1 to TDC on the compression stroke. Pull out the spark plug and turn the motor over until you feel air coming out of the hole, this is the compression stroke. If you're running a stock HEI computer controlled distributor, line up the timing mark on the balancer with the 8* mark on the timing pointer. I run a full mechanical distributor and run the motor with 36* total avance. The dist. is set up to have 25* of centrifugal advance so I need to set my base timing to 12* (12* base plus the 25* centrifugal = 36* total. Now take the distributor with no cap and drop it in the hole. I like to have the #1 terminal on the cap facing the front of the motor, so point the rotor towards the front ( or wherever you want the #1 terminal to be). Now where ever the rotor is facing will be #1 firing on the cap. Now to get the dist. shaft to engage the pump you can either pull the dist. in and out a few times and turn the shaft by hand with a long screwdriver, or you can leave the dist. in and just turn the motor over until it drops all the way down. Put the clamp, cap and wires on and fire it up. Put a timing light on it and make sure it's reading 8* ( or whatever you want your base timing to be) and take a ride.

Sorry if it sounds confusing, it's easier to describe or do it in person than it is to type it.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

thanks that helps a lot. I think i am one step closer.........I just dont kjnow what timing i want, or need. I also think my dizzy is a stock type, but is not stock. It is a Malloy HEI unit. Nothin fancy.

Can someone fill me in about what timing I want. And what is safe to run for just crusing, not max power. Just SAFE.

Also how do u get fule in the bowls at first? by hand with a tiny funnel or what? my pump doesn't wanna push till the car turns on....says the instructions .

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Dennis, FWIW, I've NEVER heard of an electric pump that will not deliver fuel without motor running. Electric motors have NO WAY of knowing if a gas motor is running, it only knows it's getting 12 volts to activate it or it's not...and it's not running. If your pump is not running you have an electrical issue somewhere...check your grounds first. This is the benefit of running electric pumps as you can tune it all without the motor running.

If the instructions state it will not run until motor is running, that is one pump I wll definately X off any parts list

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

The pump should fill the bowls like IHI said. If it's ON, it has nothing to do with the motor running.

As far as your timing, 36* total is a good start. What kind of distributor are you using?"

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If the electric fuel pump has the proper oil pressure safety switch, it won't pump with the engine not running. The factory included a timed relay that would start the pump when the ignition was turned on, but would "time out" and turn off at which time the oil pressure switch circuit is expected to have taken over. With a modified fuel system, it'll do whatever it's "designed" to do (assuming everything is working properly).

(By the way, the info about getting #1 set up was in the Comp Cams instructions I posted.)

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

i know it was posted up top, but I was just looking for a bit more indepth details. Like the screwdriver idea about linning up the pump and stuff......


ANyways, I guess I will check my grounds. The motor makes noise. So i don't seem to know what the problem is. I guess I will work my way back to the pump to see what the hold up is. Thanks guys.

Remember this is my first time doing any of this for real and I have 0 formal training. I am building this entire car from reading books and talking to people. Not to mention 99.9% by myslef.


I will see if I can get it to line all up tomoorow maybe.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Focus on the fuel system first and work your way back upto the motor since the fuel system should be a realitively quick fix. Turn on your toggle switch or ignition-however you have supplied pwr to the pump, then just use a test lgiht or voltmeter(better option) to make sure you have the full battery pwr at the pump hot. If not, then it obvious you'll have to start working back and seeing where the pwr is getting cut off at and why, then fix it so it does'nt do this. Many guys have a redundant pwr system ie a 3 position toggle switch-this way if the fuel pump is dependant on an oil pressure switch to connect pwr, they can switch it so the pump will get pwr stright from the battery...a big deal if a relay ever goes bad and I had 2 Bosche relay's do this to me, so it's great to have a back up. If you do have full battery pwr at the pump and ground checks out, then pump is bad...simple as that and would not be the first time I've heard of this.

Once you get pump up and running, just be sure you have the main feed line to carb unhooked and pointing at a bucket and flush the line out. I'm sure you blew it all out prior to making connections, but there is still tiny bits of rubber that shred off and get into the line that can wreck havoc on your needle and seats causing severe flooding of the carb...been there done this too.

Assuming fuel system gets fixed and you set static pressure at 7 or 8 psi at regulator before carb, move onto the motor if everything is ready to go otherwise. I'm really nervious that you have NO TDC indicator/pointer? along with a marked harmonic balancer...without these 2 items you have no idea where you need to be. Ideally it would've been done by the engine builder with a dial indicator to find and mark true TDC for you, but if not your stuck to getting a cam degree wheel, a dial indicator and setting it up becasue you need to know exactly where TDC is for true timing of the engine, otherwise your timing numbers could be anywhere...heard of guys timing at 54* before and that is just not right. And given that example it's going to be really hard for you to know exactly where to set it at.

Once you've finally found out where TDC is on the engine and have the pointer on the block set in place and line it up with 0 on the damper, you can remove #1 plug and then stick your finger in the spark plug hole and either use a hand held (best method) trigger and bump the engine over until you feel it push your finger out and fart this is tdc compression stroke and what the distributor needs to be set by. Once compression stroke is up and blowing air out of the cylinder your pointer should be pretty close to the 0 on the damper...rotate motor by hand until it lines back up (pointer on block to the 0 on damper)

Get your distributor and set the cap on it as it will be once you lock it down and make a mark on the distributor base with a felt marker or pencil where the number one plug wire will go. If you need to just look at any chilton or hayes and se where #1 is on the dizzy cap. now remove the dizzy cap from teh dizzy base and turn the rotor until the brass electrode is facing that mark you just made on the dizzy base. when everything is right in the world and dizzzy is in the motor the rotor electrode will be pointing at that mark on the dizzy base and the pointer on the block mounted pointer will be right on the 0 mark of the damper.

now your ready to set the distributor in place. try to keep the rotor pointing at the mark on the dizzy base while you set it in. you will probobly have to raise the dizzy up and turn the rotor by hand to compensate for dizzy mmeshing with cam gear so this part will be trial and error and you'll see what we've been talking about when you attack it. NOW, unless your extrememly lucky, the dizzy will not fully seat on the intake, this is casued by oil pump shaft and female couple on bottom of dizzy shaft not lining up...not to worry, happens all the time. keep a firm down pressure on distributor base (like your trying to force it down into the motor) and either using your hand bump start trigger or have a buddy gently bump the otor over a wee bit at a time and once the shafts line up, the distributor will drop into place.

Now, after dizzy in in, go back and stick your finger in #1 spark plug hole and slowly bump motor over until finger is blown out again...#1 compression stroke. then line up the block pointer with the 0 on the damper. Once this is done check to see that the rotor electrode is facing the mark on the distriubtor base you made earlier. you may have to twist the dizzy base one way or another a little bit to amke them line up....and you done! sounds alot worse than it really is. just be sure to get all your plug wires on right and keep #5 and #7 wires separated as best you can to prevent cross arching. Keep distributor hold down tab snug, but still loosse enough to be able to rotate dizzy when you get ready to fire the motor and once motor is fired, stick the timing light on it, take the motor to 3000 or 3500 rpm depending on advance kit you use and set motor to 36* for your inital timing. lock it all down, double check timing at previous rpm to ensure you did'nt budge it when tightening distributor and enjoy.

sorry so long, but hope it helped.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

It definetly helped IHI. Thank you very much. I have only read it once and I understood about 90% of it all. I am sure once I start doing this I will get it 100%.

Let me explain the pointer situation real quick:

The guy who built my motor told me he got a great deal on an aluminum timing cover, and he said he would toss it on for free. So i said go right ahead. Then, me being a newbie at this whole thing, ordered a nice billet timing pointer....good/bad. It looks great in the box, but as soon as I tried to mount it, it wouldn't go on cuz the AL cover is too thick. The billet pointer is only made to mount to stamped covers so that sux. Now I am really short on $ and don't wanna order the wrong type pointer again....Will a cheap little ****ty stamped one from advanced auto work for now?

And as for the damper, it is an ATI that has all the degrees engraved on it. And there is a line that says TDC. Would haveing this help IHI?

And finally, the dizzy did have a mark on it and it did have a mark on the car too, pointing to the #1 wire. But since I installed the Ignintion box, and primed the motor and attempted to sorta start it, it is not faced the right way anymore (even though I am not sure if it ever was)

But with the new info that IHI and everyone else has told me I am sure I will be able to get further along in starting this thing up.

IHI I am pretty sure that the pump is not getting enough power. I installed an optima a long time ago and have been testing the electrical stuff with it for a while. I guess I better charge it up first.

Also my pump is hooked up to my switched 12V hot that turns on when I put the key in. It is running through a relay and a circuit breaker. I wired it really nicly so it must be the battery being dead.

Any suggestions on how to charge the optima back up? should I just put it in the Aveo I have after the car is on and drive it around for a while?

Anyways I better stop this post, it is getting too long. too many questions. I will do as much as I can as soon as I can and get back to you (all).
Thanks again

Toehead

Depends on if it's a red top or a yellow top... Yellow top should be fine on a normal charger. red top needs a special charger.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

special? What do you mean?

I plan on having it in my car, and I don't think my alt. is any kind of special charger...

Am I missing something? It is a red top. 75/35 or something like that. Pretty standard issue optima, nothing special.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I would'nt get my panties in a wad about the charger, I know they preach a special charger, but I've had mine for 3yrs and have used nothing but the old school charger on it with no indication of problems. I used to 15amp it between rounds till i wised up and realized I did'nt need to. Every once in awhile I will throw a charger on at 2amps and slow charge it over night just so I know it's all upto snuff....especially prior to starting back up before the new season. Cant say it's all hype, but I dont anybody running a red or yellow top that has that "special" charger and all our batteries are old and still working great...but all of us might be luck too??

I delt with the same problem with my pointer, had to do some serious grinding on the base to make it work, but after seeing your progress on the car I'm sure the creative method of mounting has been tried?? I just used a standard jegs 555-51263, but your application may vary on balancer size. You can make it work, will jsut take imagination and a few minutes of grinding. and it's only $25 so I doubt it will break any bank accounts esspecially as deep as your in

Figure out your electrical deal and post back once you've done all of the above and I think the tide will turn and you'll hear that thing roar. And like sofakingdom said, FINISH everything before you try to start it!!! I used to get all itchey to fire a motor, esspecially when you got a shop full of the boyz wanting to hear it run so ya cobble this and that to fire it...after a few motors the excitment is gone cuz you know it'll sound like any other engine more/less and taking the time now to make everything right and FINAL really helps take alot off your mind and the whole process easier. I can honestly say I took some time getting mine together when i swapped it all over, but from the time I turned the key to start the new motor and set timing until i was racing was literally hours and I never had to go back and "re-do" anything....man was that ever nice for a change since I did'nt make anymore work for myself by redoing temp jobs....

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Ok so I got the pointer grinded down and mounted. Looks pretty good to. When you weave your head in there to see it. But ok it is in.

Now on to my horrible fuel problem. The wires were fine. The pump is most def fine too. THey seemed to be an air bubble in the lines or something cuz I went up to the last filter before the carb and I began to loosen the hose and it sounded like it was expelling gas (not gasoline but vapor) so I let it blead and then when i started to get wet. I tightened it back up. Then I disconected it from the Reg. and tunred it on, with the hose facing a bucket.

Man was that a bad idea. Gas went everywhere!!!. I didn't know that it was going to push the gas out so hard. The gas just hit the bucket and tipped it over and splashed everywhere before i could even turn the pump off.

Well I cleaned up all that I could and disconected the batery to help stop any sparks that might want to start.

After it was all cleaned up I tried to attach the line to the regulator and to the carb, cuz i figured I should be getting some PSI now (at the fuel presure guage) and finally get to fill the bowls up. but nothing happened.......I figured out it was the regulator acting strange and not letting any gas through. So I figred the area that I was working with (in terms of the adjuster screw what just way to low) So I turned everthing off again, and opened it up and it all looked fine, So I unscrewed the adjuster screw to almost all the way out of the damn regulator. THen tunred the pump back on. This time there was still no pressure. So i VERY slowly unscrewed the screw.....Till......BAM!!!

The pressure jumped up a huge amount till it pined the guage and gas started to shoot out of connectors, the carb, and many random places so I frekaed out comleatly and shut it off. (now I am totally lost) the regualtor seems to just open up all of a sudden and not let regulate anything.

Now the carb is filled with gas, and too much at that. SO the first thing that came to my head is to get all the gas out of it and clean up the motor. So if un plugged the sight plugs and let it drain out. I dried up everything i could and just quit for now.

I left the garadge door open a little to let the smell of gas get out and to let the motor evaporate all that gas.

Hopefully I didn't mess anything up.

PLEASE PLEASE HELP. I have read how to do this stuff, but do not understand why **** is acting so out of whack.

THanks for reading this long *** post.

-Dennis

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like you have the fuel supply line hooked to the regulator's return port, and vice-versa.

Verify which line is which by disconnecting them and turning the pump on; with someone holding the bucket or something, of course.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

If your using one of Holley's "famious" standard FP regulators I would bet that might be the culprit. I lterally went through 4 of them in a row before I finally said the heck with it and bought a Aeromotive regulator. I had the same problem with my big fuel pump, the regulator just literally could not hold back the fuel pressure and it internally by-passed eveything and just flooded the heck out of things. After 4 regulators and all of us (6 of us at the time) were scratching our heads as to wtf was going on, freind took his summit brand regulator (re-named aeromotive) and we installed that. Thing worked perfectly and regulated the psi to 8 right where I wanted it, so I ordered up the aeromotive regulator to replace the borrowed summit reg and all has been right with the world again.

Only thinig we can come up with is the holley reg's just are'nt built to handle high fuel pressure from a real fuel pump since all four of the regualtors we tried eventually made their way onto other cars with blue pumps and all worked perfectly.

Dennis, your making head way!!!

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

See I am happy that you experienced the same kinda thing, but I am SUPER worried now, becazuse I am using a an Aromotive regualtor allready.......! I am lost now. The regualtor has 1 IN and 4 OUT. I am just using the one, in on the bottom and one out on the side. THen all other 3 are plugged. Any idea what I should check?

Thanks for all the help, as usual.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

What is the return hooked to?

IHI

iTrader: (1)

The one my brother in law uses like that he runs 2 lines off the reg. 1 to each bowl and has the other lines capped, but there should be a return line port on there too??

Did you take the regulator apart once to see if the diaphram has been compromised in some way? That is a good regulator and easily holds up to a pump larger than yours-it's been used for a few yrs with an A2000 pump which is a bad sumbeeotch

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

the pump has its own return line. The pump is a volumax holly. It has 2 INs, 1 OUT and 1 RETURN.

So I hooked it up just like that inscructions said. At least I think I did. I ran the return port back to the tank. And rand both inlets and the out ot the regulator. I figured I wouldn't need to run a return line back from the carb as I woulbn't know where to put it. THe return port on the tank is allready being used by the return from the pump.

This is why i am lost. I guess I could try to run a return back to the tank, from the carb and leave the return port blocked on the pump or something.

Would it be better if I just took pics of everything how it is and posted them? Or do you guys picture what I am talking about well enough?

THanks again,
dennis

IHI

iTrader: (1)

If the pump has a built in regulator, what psi is it pushing at the pump itself? Is there an adjustible by-pass reg on the pump itself? if so try turning that down to 16 psi and see if that helps.

IMO, unless that pump is some new design running 2 lines from the tank into the pump is overkill, mainly just wasted time/money since it will only push so much anyways.

Your sure the inlet to the reg is correct with the fuel line from the pump? Do you or anybody have a regulator-even an old style-laying around to hook up and see what happens? Even with the pump going full tilt it should not over power the regulator you have so I keep thinking to myself soemthing internally may be wrong or a line is connected wrong somewhere? hard to say without being there, but with these high flow pumps you will find weak links. The A2000 I had pumped 1 gallon of fuel in 11 second, for comparison my holley blue with HP spring takes 33 seconds to pump 1 gallon BIG difference in amount of flow and pressure build up.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

The pump is regulated, but I am not sure what PSI it is set at. As for the overkill thig about there being 2 inlets....I guess it is, but my fuel cell has 2 outlets and the pump "needs" 2 inlets, so whatever it works out.

I am not sure why it needs 2.

But anyways, I guess I will read over the instructions again. and see what it is pre-set at. As for the regualtor, I am 99.9% sure it is hooked up right. inlet on the bottom and 4 outlets around the side.

I do not have any car friends that live around me that can help out either. THis is pretty much all up to me...so i can not borrow anyones..

IHI, what do you think my next logical step should be?

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Just for giggles since you've gotten it torn apart anyways, is ther anyway you can disconnect the fuel line from the regulator input and time how long it takes to fill a 1 gallon jug. I've dont it by myself with a milk jug in a bucket, but definately nice with 1 guy watching hose, one guy at the switch. I am curious to see how much actual pump output is and weather a cheapie Holley regulator would be a temp fix and prove your reg might have an internal problem...as it should not be allowing max fuel psi through.

Have you tore the reg apart yet to see if any debris coming out of the fuel line may have stuck something open inside? If you have'n t done so yet, get that thing apart and look for any obvious sings of blockage preventing the fuel from being regulated, that's what I would do, and if nothing obvious shows up inside the regulator, I would call shomever you ordered it through and if it's still under warranty send it back and get a new one. Obviously your now getting fuel, but the problem lies in the component that regulates the fuel pressure-it does'nt-so something is a miss.

As long as your careful the gasket/seal in reg should be intact and reusable once you pop the top.

Josh

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Ok. Thanks IHI.

I did open it up a few weeks ago and everything seemed perfectly fine. no debris whatsoever. Maybe something is really wrong with the regulator. They are not complicated pieces so I would think that my eye would catch the problem, but who knows.

Since I have allready done that. I will do that 1 gallon in how many seconds thing. and report back.

Rob Wade

Dennis
Sorry for the late post----when you get your fuel system figured out, take your line(s) going to the carb and put them in a bucket and run some fuel through to make sure all your assembly debris from your new lines/cell etc doesn't cause a needle and seat to stick. Nothing worse than firing your motor and having fuel poring out of the vents! Also---- remove your thermostat housing and thermostat and fill the motor with coolant through the opening in the top of the intake. Now reinstall the thermostat and housing. This will make sure the thermosat doesn't freeze and cause an air pocket to overheat the motor on start-up. Good luck man.

Late addition when you install your dizz pointing at #1 and the motor at tdc WITH the ignition turned on, you should be able to connect plug wire #1 to a loose spark plug (grounded on the motor somewhere) and with the dizz snug you should be able to rotate the dizz and get that plug to spark. This will tell you exactly ( or close enough to fire it) where your timing is at on start up. Get it to spark and snug up the dizz. Reconnect wire to #1 plug and your set. Just make sure you do this with cylinder #1 on compression stroke, not exhaust.