crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

Getten rid of my vortecs just cause I'm not trusting them. Have a buddy building a motor and I want to put him in the dust.

I'm Running the Xe Hr 282 cam, 987 comp springs, titanium retainers. I'm going to sell my vortecs and use some of that money toward new heads. I have a base 350 not bored , just all cleaned up/cam bearing. I'm going with a t56 if that maters. No stall or nothing.. Also going carbureted 750. I guess i'm looking to spend around 800+ not too much on the + but enough to get good heads to give me some good numbers.

THanks for the help guys like always!

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

Not gonna get much better than vortecs for $800. 113 heads are your next bet, followed by Pro Toplines which are now sold under the name Racing Head Service. The Vortecs are pretty well suited to your combination though so I don't think you're going to notice much by stepping up.



To offer a reccomendation I really, really like the Brodix Track 1's, but way out of your budget although they're priced fair considering they're a complete CNC'd head with good springs and valves.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

I have the springs and everything, The reason I ask is because I went to the machine shop and to port and polish /blend the bowls they want like 600$ and then for screw in studs, guides cut and stud bosses cut for guideplates its only like 500$. But like 1200 altogether is way to much . What you think I should do. I'm trying to hit 380 at the wheels, hopefully try and pull a low 12 at the track when i'm all said and done.. SHoudl I just say screw the port and polish/ blend bowls? and still run those heads or what man?

F-BIRD'88

if $$$'s are an issure why not do some of the work yourself.

You can buy a 1/4" electric die grinder and all the carbides and stones to port the heads yourself. You can do just as good or better than a machine shop on these heads to soup them up.
They need a good general porting but no rocket science required to get a good result. you can buy all the tooling requred to mod the rocker studs and valve spring pockets and guide boss and do it at home with a good electric drill.
If you'll be running self guided rockers all that is nessessary is to drill and pin the rocker studs. (no guide plates requred.)

The porting is easy, but time consuming. A $10 book on head porting will show you how.

You can stick with the stock 1.94-1.50 valve size or go up top 2.02x 1.60 requireing only a new valve job.

You can prepare your Vortecs to be a spanking head and reach your performacne goals but the secret to doing it on a budget is to DO IT YOURSELF After reading the book on basic porting technique on SBC heads you'll have all the knowlege nessessary. A few hours practicing on a old junk head with get the hand control skill nessessary.

Stock vortecs flow about 228cfm intake and 150 ex.

Basic full porting will get you 240-245cfm and 180-200 ex.
with excelent swirl and velocity.

If I can do it, so can you.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

honestly I don't even want to mess with the heads and all that time to tell you the truth. I dont want to even take the chance.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

not even with 1200 I couldnt get good heads?

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I got my AFR's off ebay to my door with head gaskets, new head bolts, intake gaskets for $1350 so deals are out there, you just have to be able to move when you find them.

I know benches flow different, but I've got a sheet from my buddies 062 vortec straight outta the junk yard flowwing 240cfm....this ended up being 4 cfm MORE than our other buddies Dart Pro 1 230 heads.....out of all the actual head flow sheets I've seen at the shop that does most of our rcers head work, AFR is the only company that actually flows what they advertise straight out of the box.

Consider that it cost another $300 to get the Dart 230's to flow 268cfm and you can see your money ahead just buying good heads once.

ME Leigh

Get a torque converter to match your cam and you will have much better performance. Thats a relatively large cam for a stock converter.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

lol, I'm really thinking about saving money and just going with the vortec heads un ported for now. This Way I have something to look foward to in the future when I get more money. Cause that work would only be like 500$, they offered me 1800$ cnc aluminum heads they were so nice. He said they flowed like 320. I was like damn but 1800 oh my.. thats a big chunk. I'm just worried about these vortecs hurting me down the 1/4. I hope i could still brake a mid- low 12.

Doom86

Do you already have the vortec intake manifold? if not add that in to your budget too, they retail for 160-170$.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

You can buy a 1/4" electric die grinder and all the carbides and stones to port the heads yourself. You can do just as good or better than a machine shop on these heads to soup them up.

No. You're not going to equal the work of an engine builder that knows what the're doing. You can improve on the stock stuff, but there's more to head porting than just hogging out the ports.

I've got a set of Vortecs with screw in studs, stock size Manley Pro Flow valves with no port work that made 370 on a 383ci. motor on our dyno. Bigger valves seem to hurt the vortecs. BTW, the heads are for sale

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

I know I need an intake manifold, going with an rpm-air-gap ok. this isn't a budget build. I'm putting like 5 + g into this motor, but dont want to go 1800$ heads lol. The question is, without porting these vortec heads, will i still have the performance I'm looking for? I'm shooting for 450 hp on the motor.

F-BIRD'88

Stock vortecs flow enough to make about 430hp right out of the box. ( big cam, high cr single plane manifold, big headers) With the right combination of parts.
You won't get 450hp out of stock vortecs. Not with a dual plane manifold and 10:cr They will need porting for this. They do not need that much porting thou.
They are a pretty good head to start with.
No rocket science involved. Yes vortecs do not see any increase with larger valves along, until the combustion chamber near the valve edge is relieved a little ( deshrouding) May other popular performance heads are just like this. No mystery here. The larger valve is closer to the edge of the combustion chamber as it comes off seat actualy decreasing the available flow window. Deshrouding the chamber around the valve cures this. The porting book tells you this. If you're not willing to do these heads then start with a head that has the flow you need. They will not be cheap. Good heads with good valvetrain parts are not cheap. If you have $5000 to throw around you want to throw a good chunk into the cylinder heads. Thats where the power is. You want a 180 to 200cc port that flows 245 or more at high lift. 260cfm would be nice.
A AFR 195 is a good example. A home ported set of vortecs will get the job done with room to spare and for a whole lot less.

Many So called "Engine Builders" actually know little more about head porting then you do. Yes a professional engine builder/ head porter with the experience, time and a flow bench can ultimately do a better job than you. But you don't need a max effort porting job. A general port cleanup and guide boss contouring useing conventional well known methods is all that is required on these heads to get the results nessessary for 450+hp.
Don't want or need to make the ports huge either.
If you want a head with huge ports, buy a set with huge ports to start with.

Get your head around this online mag article all about porting vortec heads. Its pretty basic stuff and delivers the numbers. vortecs

I actually got a little more flow out of mine on the flow bench but I went with the bigger valves and chamber deshrouding. I essentually did the same thing as the porter did in this article on the ports.
This is all pretty basic stuff.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

F-Bird 88 has hit the nail on the head, if you have that kind of money (more than I've ever thought about putting into a motor) stick the greater majority of it into the heads. Heads and cam are what dictate engine output. Engines are just air pumps-simply put-the more air in the more air out and the more power you will make.

the 383 I had in sig was all bone stock shortblock, I went with a great cam company that ground a power house bumstick since I did'nt want to spin motor past 6K and great heads, everything else was all common everyday stuff you'd find on any motor.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

Alright, I'm liking those afrs on ebay. I'm not sure which one to go with. I don't know what most of the flow numbers mean for my engine. I always heard that you could get heads too big for your set up? I'm not sure. Are those afr heads aluminum? They look pretty nice. I'm not sure why they don't have a lot of specs on thier ebay listing. Cause they come with valvesprings (which I already have matched for my cam sitting here) And they dont even give the specs on it. Or the valves. Says that it comes with a 3 angle valve job, that sounds pretty good, not so sure on what that is. If I got different heads like these i'm sure i would probably hit over 450 hp since I would have to change to a different intake also. NOthing wrong with that lol.

So i guess its either the 195cc or 210cc

What kind of hp increase could I gain from switching from my non ported vortecs to these afr's That are like i think 100% fully ported. Whats weird is at the machine shop they offered me a cnc'd head for 1800$ and said it flowed 320? I guess thats good for 1800$? I think they said their a vortec style that come in and then they do all the work on them. (porting , valve job) ect.

I guess I would have to get rid of their valvesprings and retainers if I got them and use mine. These afrs would probably flow better then my vortecs even If I got mine ported for 1300$ which wouldnt even be a full port job. I think going the right way woudl be with one of those afrs.

what you guys think

IHI

iTrader: (1)

All the AFR's are aluminum, big runners are what can hurt you-too big and it'll be a dog on the low rpm side, but with the 195's they support enough flow to get 500hp no problem-the competition port 195's flow what my 210's do with just base casting-not the competition castings. If this is going to be a street car 90% and a track toy 10%, opt for the 195's to keep velocity up which will aid in more power on the low rpm side.

With aluminum heads, you usually try to get your compression at least .5-1.0 higher in compression to compensate for heat disappaction. By taking identical heads only difference 1 is cast iron and 1 is aluminum and bolting them on a 9.5:1 motor, you will actually lose power by installing aluminum becasue it gets rid of chamber heat so quickly.

You need to find out what springs they have in the heads as shipped, and see if they will work with your cam weather it be hyd flat tappet, solid flat tappet, hyd roller, or solid roller since each type of grind takes different seat pressure to work properly and not destroy lifters/cams.

The 3 angle valve job is basically how the valve is ground to alllow more air flow. a 3 valve is very good, but when I get mine redo they will be a 5 angle job and I will also be going to a racing valve that is shaped differently above the mushroom by the valve stem to allow a lil bit more air through.

Peak flow if a great number for bench racing, but your cam is not at peak lift for very long, the AFR heads are so great because they flow great numbers very early which help make power since the cam spends more time half open/half shut than it does wide open...."under the curve" is what it's all about there and that's how real power is made without going to extreme's

Sounds like a good buy, I know AFR currently has a 6 month backlog on heads, so ask seller if these are HIS in stock items or if he's ddrop shipping from the factory. If he's drop shipping, find out how long before they are expected to ship. I've talked to a few guy recently that were going to get AFR's, but after they found out wait was that long, it detered them into Darts or Brodix which DO NOT FLOW as advertised...have a out of box set flowed and you'll see how true this is...lots of false advertising out there with carbs and heads, that is why I like AFR, my flow sheet was almost identical to what they have listed in their catalog.

Great heads and they cant be touched for the money....good things come to those who wait.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i'm not too too worried on the long time it would take the heads to get here right now. Also the valvesprings that come on those heads I would probably have pulled at the machine shop anyway cause the other valvesprings I bought are matched perfectly for my cam. Also the titanium, retainers I bought are very nice...

So I guess the plan is to go to the shop, pick up my heads and sell them. How much do you think I should get for them , cause I think the guy said he'll sell them for me if i let him. Then I'll save up alittle more and get these afrs, which 195's? the comp ones? or the base regular ones.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Your going to be ALOT happier and money ahead going the AFR route.

As far as which to get, let you rpocket book be your guide. If you can swing it, get the 100% cnc job's since they flow some really good numbers for a small runner head, if you want to save a few hundred the street head also flows very well...the AFR 195 street heads outflows Dart Pro 1 230's if you need a reference.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

hmmm, cool cool. I wonder what numbers I may see now. When i was going with the vortecs it was expected to be 450hp at the crank. Now if i went with the comp afrs hmmm.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

damn and now I also gotta change my intake choice too hmm

IHI

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Just a personal recommendation but give these guys a call on a cam www.bulletcams.com you can have great heads, but if your bumpstick is'nt optimized your leaving out some power. I dont know what stage your engine is in now, but if your going so far as to replace or install heads, do yourself a favor and contact these guys for a killer cam in your application, put that cam you have on ebay and go with one that'll make some real power and be easy on the valvetrain. AFR + Bullet cam is like peanut butter and jelly or cigarettes and beer they just work very well together

When you get you intake, no matter what profile you decide, take the hour or so and do a quick gasket match port/clean up job. I've never been one that liked doing crap like that and have farmed it out, but i bit the bullet one day when I finally installed the correct intake gaskets after a year and a half. Went down bought some carbide bits for eating aluminum, drew my gasket lines in the intake ports and just ate it out to the line and took it into the runners about 1.5". Got it back on the track and that hour I took doing that picked me up 1 mph and .07 so I was very happy with the quickey job.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

Are their cames hyd roller? I was always recommended the 282 Extreme energy Hyd roller from comp cams to be good for what I was going with. What are you trying to do make me hit low 11's lol. I'm not that far in my build at all, didn't even by the cam yet but I had everything together of what I was going with. So I guess if I went with another cam I would have to go with different valve springs as well... What kind of difference are we talking about here. I want to see some numbers

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Low 11's on pump gas and street freindly

The guys that own/work at Ultradyne/Bullet cams were somce of the original guys that came up with the now popular dual pattern cams that started this big cam craze for more power, they've worked for Lunati, Comp, Crane designing cams and got together and bought out this Ultradyne company that was failing and have turned it around. These guys are literally the best in the business since they essentially help put the other cam companies on the map.

They sell every kind of cam just like any other manufacturer, best bet is to e-mail or call them. Your always going to make more power with a solid cam, no matter flat tapper or roller, but there is more maintenance invloved to. Any hyd you set it and forget it, but power will be down, and with a hyd roller you should install a rev kit to help lifters stay tight on the cam when revs start getting up there, so there's another $100 you'll have to figure in if going that route to achieve good power with lack of maintenance.

Best comparison I can give you is to the other truck I run. It also has a 383, that one is at 12.5 dcompression requiring race fuel, and weighs in at 2900 race ready. That motor has a comp with almost identical specs as my bullet, duration is 1 number higher both sides, LSA is identical, and the Comp has a .681/.732 lift....that truck runs consistant 10.88's

Now look at my sig and my puny cam (same specs almost but alot less lift) in a 700lb heavier car and you see what I mean. I ran consistant 11.0? when I jetted for going fast and ideal tuning, but when racing I run it waay lean for consistancy so I lose typically .2-.3 and 3-4 mph.

Another family member of mine is running a comp cam, with an even bigger 383 than whats in the truck, best on juice was a 10.4?

AFter I started putting 2 and 2 together with all the different motors at the track, what they were, and what they were running, the comp cam equiped stuff just is'nt that impressive. They've got a heck of a market, dont get me wrong, but there is alot better out there.

Edit: I should'nt promise low 11's since that'll take a combination of all the right things working together, but 11.5-11.7 consistantly with no abuse to valvetrain and excellent drivability/durability/lack of maintenance should be easily attanable.

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

you think I could still use these valvesprings

• comp 987 dual valve springs, (Specs- O.d 1.430/ i.d .697) (121@1.800 installed seat load) (Open load 388@1.200) (Coil Bind 1.150) (Rate Lbs/In. 1.150) (Titanium Retainer 730) (Steel Retainer 740) (Shims 4754)

With one of their cams capable of putting me in the high 11's. Also whats one of those cams go for lol.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Their cams are priced just like any other you find in Summit/Jegs, etc...so price is the same depending on what type you go with, obviously rollers will be more due to base core material being better-just like forged pistons compared to cast pistons.

Spring rate will totally depend what type on cam your going with and what lift so you dont coil bind. If your going with AFR 195's those springs will not work since they are too small, the 195's take a 1.450" spring, but judging from your current springs specs am assuming your original cam was going to be hyd flat tappet? If you order the heads, just get them complete, the hardware they come with will work just fine, and you can upgrade springs to whatever you need cam wise-just let them know what you have in mind before ordering.

Took me 4 months of research and back and forth ideas before i finally decided on a complete package and goal before I executed it so I know where your coming from, then I just stock piled parts slowly over the winter and brought it all together the next spring, best part was having it all pay off by reaching my goals once final tune was done.