gruveb

Right now I am building my L69 and am happy. I know the engine won't last forever. When it dies on me, I'm NOT going to put the money in the 305. However, every schmuck (no offense) out there has a 350 or 383.

I like what I have read about the 327. So I have a few questions. Perhaps some of you can enlighten me and help me make an educated decision.

1. To get a 327, you take a 350 block and destroke it? I don't know, please explain. I think I will have better luck finding a 350 block than a 327 core.

2. If I had a set of 305 torquer heads, would they work on a 327?

3. What are reasonable, streetable power figures to get out of a 327?

Tas

get a 2 piece rear main seal 327/350 block, large journal 327 crank and there ya go. The 350 and 327 block is the same, only the crank is different. Yes the 305 torquer heads will work but they might hold it back without future porting. You can do that later though.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, 700R4, P.A.W. 14x3 open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips, Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248)
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[This message has been edited by Tas (edited October 11, 2001).]

ede

327 is a 4" bore and 3.25" stroke. i'd look for an original 327 and you'll get a forged crank to boot, except the last year gm made the 327, 68, was LJ and cast crank. the factory 327 were all 2 bolt mains. gm didn't make a 4 bolt main until the 302 came along then started making the 350 in 4 bolt as well since it was the same block. i'd run small chamber large port large valve heads for a 327 and a fairly high lift cam. i had a L79 327/350 in a 66 chevy II and it would flat out fly. hard to believe now but the sun tack would hit 7200 when i shifted it.

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ICON Motorsports
1st & 3rd
MM Black Diamond 538 F&AM

gruveb

Ede,

My chances of finding an original 327 are slim to none down here. Slim just left town.

My question is, can I get a 350 block (2 or 4 bolt main) and destroke it to be myself a 327?

In my L69 I am using the Comp Xtreme 12-238-2 and have been very pleased. Would a similar, maybe slightly larger cam be a good solution?

I really like the idea of pulling 7K on the tach. That's one area that most V8's mis out on....and that may be one reason why our cars are becoming dinosaurs. It's very sad, but maybe true.

Tas

the small journal forged 327s can go 8000 RPM but you can't use a hydraulic roller cam with it. Those cams max at around 6500.

gruveb

So who here has done a 327 build up?

JPrevost

My friend has but not on a thirdgen, it was on his 69. If you want you can e-mail him, just e-mail me and I'll give you his addy, he's in school right now (3rd year @ Drexel) for mechanica engineering and he knows his small blocks.

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

ede

i've done several, have one now in my 68ss. all of mine were original 327s. i'm sure you can buy a 3.25 stroke crank for a 327 from about any crank maker.

RB83L69

I've done quite a few of them over the years....

1. To get a 327, you use a 4" block, same bore as a 350 block. You use a 327 crank. Problem is, nearly all 327 cranks have the old smaller journals. Those are steel and are very good cranks. But the rods are weaker, they have 11/32" hardware instead of 3/8". If you want to build a really good 327, the thing to do would be to talk to the crank builders (Eagle, Lunati, etc.) and see if one of them will take a 350 forging and set it up with the shorter stroke. Lunati would be my first guess.

2. I would not recommend the 305 heads. The way to make a 327 sing is to set it up for high RPM power, not low RPM torque. Plus, since it has a 4" bore, you don't have to be concerned with cramming the valves into the little tiny 305 bore.

3. That depends on what you consider reasonable and streetable. 400 HP should be no harder to come up with out of a 327 than out of a 350, but it will come at a slightly higher RPM. So not only the engine, but also the gearing, accessory pulleys, etc. would need to be adjusted accordingly. You don't want to have happen to you what happened to me one morning on my way to work driving a 292 with a big solid cam: the alternator fan exploded and ruined a perfectly good Chevelle SS hood. Another time the clutch disk in the same car exploded, somehow I am lucky enough to still have feet.

I would run a solid cam if I were to build one; a roller if possible.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

gruveb

RB,

You have all of the luck!!! I will see if one of the crank makers has something like that for me.

By the way, you suggested that I try the 12-238-2 cam in my L69....I gotta say, that even with factory exhaust and stock heads, this really woke up the engine. I'd say a good call indeed.

I'd call about 375 reasonable horse power.

There are a couple reason why I want to keep the CI Displacement low. I'd like to try and keep my stock drive train (5 speed, posi 3.73 gears). I'd like to have something a little different. (I've got a 350 sounds like I'd like a big mac, coke and fries please). If the opportunity arises, I'd like to put a larger engine in a different car. There are a lot of windy canyon roads here, and suspension & handling are very important. For that type of driving a 406 is just not the right answer.


[This message has been edited by gruveb (edited October 11, 2001).]

Tas

Build a 406 then!! low RPM saves parts and wear.

chevymad

Large journal 327 cranks arent as rare as you think. Sure they only made them as 327s in 68, they use the same crank in 307s. 307s were used in many trucks so they are fairly plentiful. When I ordered my crank kit from NAPA ($125?) for a 327 it came and the crank was marked 307, but it had the same casting # as the original crank. And I too have hit 7200 rpm with my 327. Good luck! I think this'll make a good combination.

gruveb

I almost forgot. The first vehicle I ever owned was a 72 Chevy 1/2 ton with a 307 and a 4 speed. That combo in granny gear would pull a house over....interesting.

What are the differences between a 307 and a 327?

Tas

Well if they have the same crank then it would have a tiny bore, ay? If I remember right, a 307 is a 327 crank in a 283 block.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS.6
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gruveb

Tas,

It's been a long time, I had forgotten. I think I may have found the crank I would need for this project from Lunati....I'll make sure to post what I find out.

Grim Reaper

Back in the late 60s and early 70s, you couldn't GIVE a 307 away. But when you compare a 307 to a 305, the 307 seems like a much better engine. I think this is why so many of the "old timers" like RB cannot understand why people insist on building a 305.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth RB, but I think you know where I am coming from.

AlkyIROC

The only problem with the 307 crank is they're only available in cast. Although there's nothing wrong with using one to make a 327, it's not a real 327 without a steel crank. 4 bolt main 350 block or studed 2 bolt block will work fine with either one.

The crank in my BBC is cast so you don't always need a steel crank.

Large bore engines will always be better than small bore regardless of the stroke. Even trying to build a 302 is better than the 305. The 305 block has a 3.736" bore and the 307 had a 3.875" bore. Not much better. That's why the 307 wasn't liked. Why do people still want to hot-rod 305's is beyond me. You might as well just build a 262 or 267.

------------------
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Tas

the bigger bore is always better? That depends what you consider better. 305s are like mini 383s. They have great torque and get good milage for their size. That's why they have been truck engines for so long. It was a combination that worked. You don't need a forged crank for it to be a 327. My friends '68 camaro has a large journal 327 with the cast crank. He had the 305 camaro of the day. It was the sttiped model. No power anything. Lame 210HP from huge chamber heads. 2 barrel carb. That thing was almost all stock when we started working on it except for some glasspacks and a hurst shifter.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS.6
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gruveb

Ok, let's talk size of the journal....what is the small size and what is the large size?

What about a 350 block? Is it going to be impossible to match them up?

The reason many people want to build up a 305 is because it is already in their car.

camaro6spd

I like the idea of a 327, the rices always think they are hot stuff because they can rev, well slap a miniram or a ramjet ont here and so hi rev stuff and bingo, talk about a ***** eater, beat them off the line with the V8 and eat them up in the top end where they will just see dust! That will be the motor that goes into my race maro

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1987 Black 305 TPI 5spd IROC, seems to be fully loaded, but can't find RPO codes.

AIM: IROC 5spd
http://www.geocities.com/chevy5spdiroc/87Roc.htm

LFN AT U

iTrader: (1)

I have a '68 327 in my '82 Firebird. It has about 11:1 compression and I run a 292 duration/.501 lift cam. My induction is handled by an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake and a Holley Projection. It still has the stock heads. The car is a blast to drive, it's fun to let that little motor really scream! With a high stall converter and 3.70 gears the car definitely hauls a$$.

Blue92

Hey don't the newer Chevy trucks have 327's? I would think if they do there would be aftermarket parts now avalible.

------------------
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305TBI, EDL strut tower brace w/spohn SFC's on the way and wonderbar, ASCD big block hood,
Eibach Sportline Springs,
Koni Struts and Shocks,
SSPE lower control arms and Panhard bar,
Hellwig Rear Swaybar and Energy Suspension bushings.Aluminum Driveshaft. Posi-rear

gruveb

LFN,

What cam, heads and so on do you have on that 327? What is your red line apx?

82camaro

Since you want a different engine, why not build a 377(400 block w/350 crank). Or even a 347 (400 block with a 327 crank, not sure on the ci). I've thought about building a 327, but I find that the only reason is that it would be different or 'cool'. A 350 is cheaper to build and makes more power with the same parts. The 350 is common for a reason. I guess I'm more of a "$ per hp" person. Another engine you could build is a 302.


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350 with stealth intake, holley carb, 470 lift cam. 700r4 with .5 boost valve, vette servo, tci lock-up kit, B&M megashifter. Richmond 3.73 gears, powertrax locker, timkin bearings, synthetic lube. Custom 3 inch single into 2 2.5 pipes. 1 1/2 drop springs, 1 5/16 solid front sway bar, 1 inch rear bar, custom subframe connectors, custom LCA relocation brackets. Kobel ground FX, currant red metallic paint. Lots of other stuff...
82camaro

agawam

I have a 327 4bolt main engine it came out of a 68 nova no heater radio rugs it is a factory original with a forged large journal crank and forged poptop 11:1 pistons and fulie 202 heads it was rated at 325hp as far as 327s are concerned they are the greatest engine chevrolet ever made and I have built over a dozen. oh by the way it's not for sale

gruveb

That's kind of the attitude that made me interested in a 327 to begin with.

People who have owned them, swear by them.

iroc22

My dad has two 327 large journal engines. One is in his '68 Nova and the other one is sitting on the floor.
Here's the specs on the one on the floor:
Edelbrock victor single plane intake
600 cfm performer carb
World Products S/R Torquer 2.02/1.6 heads
Mild HYDRALIC cam(can't remember the specs but its like 220/226 duration and .430/.440 in that neighborhood)
Forged pistons blah blah blah
Anyway its good for a dyno'ed 435hp@6500rpm and 390tq@4000rpm. Here's the funny thing about this engine: its redline is 8300 rpm. At 8000 rpm, the engine is still making 341 horsepower. Great bottom end torque, top end horsepower and midrange. That's why I'm about to install S/R 305 Torquers on my engine.

------------------
1989 IROC-Z Convertible
305 TBI / 5-speed
Few mods
No times yet

My Thirdgen homepage:
members.v3space.com/thirdgen/index.htm

chevymad

The earliest 350 blocks were the same casting # as the 327s. When they increased the size of the 327 crank to large journal(same size as 350, uses same bearings) chevy switched to cast cranks. The early cranks were smaller and needed to be forged. 4 bolt 327s have been debated on many sites, general consensus is that they werent made. They can be made with 350 blocks however. Also 4 bolt 327s were made for Massey Ferguson combines as an industrial engine. I guess these are quite common and I've found sites selling them for $350. They have a bulletproof bottom end but rumor has it a different firing order.

8Mike9

A very rare engine, indeed

gruveb

Ok, my question is this:

Can a 327 crank either forged or cast, be placed in a 350 case, 2 or 4 bolt? Would any combination there match up?

What is the journal size of a 350 anyhow?

While we're at it, what's the journal size of a 400 sb?

I can get a 327 crank (cast) that is "main measures 2.436 and rods measure 2.087, casting number is 3841174C1 it also has GM 21"


[This message has been edited by gruveb (edited October 12, 2001).]

RB83L69

I'll answer your questions in no particular order...

There are 3 sizes of SBC main bearings, commonly referred to as small journal, large journal, and 400. I don't know the actual diameters offhand, but they are in about .100" steps from each other. Look them up in somebody's bearing catalog, Speed Pro would be a great place to start. There are 2 sizes of rod journals, known as small and large, with a similar size difference between them.

All small journal cranks are forged steel. There was not at the time a process for casting that would produce sufficiently strong results to use as moving parts. It could be argued that that hasn't changed.

All SBC motors up through 1967 are small journal with steel cranks. In 67, the first 350s appeared in the Camaro SS. These had cast cranks and large journals. The 283, 302, and 327 continued to have small journals through 68.

In 69, all SBCs became large journal. Nearly all got cast cranks; notably, most of the ones in trucks, Corvettes, and some performance applications remained forged. The 283 was dropped; there is therefore no such thing as a post-68 283, or a large-journal 283.

The 302 was started in 67 as GM's ticket into SCCA racing which had a 5.0 liter limit and required a production run (500 IIRC) of vehicles. The only way to get this motor in your car was as part of RPO Z28 in the Camaro; in 67 this RPO was strictly a stripped-down road race car, with absolutely no options available except a heater, not even a radio, much less any frills like disappearing headlights (RS package). It was so popular that in 68 it became less exclusive; it could be combined with appearance and comfort options, even including A/C in 69. In 69 the 302 got a large journal crank; this is the only large-journal 3.00" stroke crank Chevy ever made.

AFAIK there was never any such thing as a large-journal steel 327 crank that came in a factory motor, as 8Mike9 politely hinted at above. By the time the large-journal block became the general usage in 69, the 327 was the low-HP version, cast crank only, 2-barrel carb only. There is no such thing as a large-journal 327 (or for that matter a large-journal anything else other than a 350 in a Camaro SS) before 69.

A 283 is 3.00" stroke (crank) by 3.875" bore (block). 327 is 3.25" stroke & 4.00" bore. 302 is 283 stroke and 327 bore, 307 is 327 stroke and 283 bore. 302, 327 and 350 have the same 4.00" bore, and can therefore all be made from a 350 block, but the pistons are different; the rods are the same length (5.7"), so the 350 pin bore is up higher in the piston by .125" from the 302 to 327, and by .115" more in the 350.

So:

A cast 327 crank or a 307 crank, which are the same casting, will go into a 350 block since they are the same (large) journal diameter. A 302 crank from 69 will go in a 350 block. A steel 283 or 327 crank from a junkyard will not go in a 350 block, although there have been some over-the-counter service parts that are a steel, large-journal 327 crank (I have one in my garage) as well as some aftermarket ones.

400 rod journals are the same diameter as large-journal ones, but the rods themselves are a different length. They have the same pin height as a 350 piston. So the sum of ½ the stroke plus the rod length is the same for both engines; the rod length of the 400 is therefore 5.565".

Main journals are the same diameter in a 2- or 4-bolt block. So any crank will go in any block, as long as the crank and block are both large or 400 journal. There are no 4-bolt small-journal blocks from the factory.

Look up that crank at www.mortec.com I do not recognize the casting number. The stock sizes are on even .010" increments though; the sizes you quote look to me like a reground and then further severely worn crank, maybe already worn beyond its maximum undersize. I would not buy a crank like that off of e-Bay like it sounds like that one is coming from.

It is possible to install a set of main bearings into a 400 block, and align-bore them to the same inner diameter as the bearing saddles of a large journal block. That's how you build a 372: those bearings, plus a set of regular large-journal bearings, a 350 crank, 350 rods, and 400 pistons. Bolt-in. I've never felt motivated to attempt to put a small-journal crank into a large-journal block, due to the weaker rods. Maybe somebody else knows whether that's possible.

Now my fingers are really tired....

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 13, 2001).]

ede

well rb i don't know if it's good or not but i believe i know the journal size without looking for the more common lj cranks, 2.448 on the mains and 2.099 on the pins. like i said i think i remember it. funny thing is i never can remember the firing order of a chevy. i have it wrote on my puter here and on the wall in the garage.

------------------
ICON Motorsports
1st & 3rd
MM Black Diamond 538 F&AM

gruveb

RB,

Again, thank you. As always you have been very informative and easy to understand....(I'm a novice to say the least). You told me exactly what I was looking to know.

And the journal sizes Ede are exactly what I wanted to know also...I have a line on a 327 crank (Large Journal) for $25.00, so I think I'm gonna do it.

I think this will be a fascinating project. I am thinking that with that type of RPM range, in the future it might be nice to set up a twin turbo (which sadly enough I know more about than SBC's...I was going to put a pull through system on a 72 beetle..ran outta dough)

See I'm not wanting to build this car for just a 1/4 mile. The car, just stock, handles too well to be limited to just that. With a little suspension moding, this car could be an exceptional "Canyon Carver".

This has been a great thread for people like me who have NO knowledge about Small Block Chevies. It's been a great learning experience and I thank everyone who has helped.

I'll be sure to post my future questions...and post my progress. I am going to do this project, but am going to take my time, may take 2 years to complete....

I was talking with my wife this morning about the possibility of putting a BBC in a second gen.....

ede

that's for the more common large journal cranks. i think the pin for a small journal is 1.998 and not sure about the mains but i'll guess 2.248

jms

iTrader: (1)

The last model year for small-journal cranks in 327s was 1967. Not '68.

Large-journal 327s can be found in model years 1968 and 1969.

During my early dirt-track racing days, the only value large-journal 327s had was yanking off the 'fuelie' heads. I bought many large-journal 327s (mostly '68 versions) for $25 and $30 dollars. Complete. Yanked the heads, sold 'em for $100 a pair, as they were, and sold the rest of the short block for my original costs. Easy money.

As far as the statement of ALL small-journal cranks being steel, well, I believed that way until someone showed me a 1967 283 crank, small-journal with a CAST crank. Had never seen one before that and none since. But I did see it and I measured it.

As far as a 4-bolt pre-'68 327 block, I've never seen one (I've been inside a few 350, 360, 365 and 375 horse engines) but with GM, who knows!
jms

GOLD85

no its a 325 and the 325 is a SB2 whick is a completly differnt motor

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when the green flag drops the bull$hit stops

pulled the 350 to make way for the 406 wich is in the machine shop. got a comp 282S bump stick with 1.6 rockers. looking at differnt heads right now.Perfomer RPM and holley 650 DP, headers and 3 inch exhust. 3000 stall converter and a built 700r4. shotin for mid 12s next summer

RB83L69

Thanks for the journal diameters ede, it's amazing sometimes the variety of such details we can all come up with if we each throw our particular little tidbits in.

ede's diameters are for the crank journals after grinding & polishing down to spec oil clearance, .002" on the mains and .001" on the rods in that case. Most of the time the spec you see in books is the bearing inner diameter, which would be 2.450" and 2.100". So that used crank is a worn-out .010"/.010', therefore it has one more shot of life left in it. For $25 it should be OK.

I believe the motors tha Gold is talking about are the "LS1"-style truck motors... if so, they don't have a whole lot in common with any of the older ones. Seems like there's a larger one too, a 6.0 liter or something. That short block might be a good cheap mod for a Vette or F car with the 346 LS1.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

chevymad

RB83L69 had a lot of good info. Cept he was one year off on the small-large cutoff date. 68 was the first year large journal. Know for a fact, I have an original 250hp 4 barrel I pulled out of my first car a 68 impala. It had the correct vin etc. And it is large journal. It is currently in my 70 1/2 ton. It lasted 180,000 original, no bolts turned in the impala. I then took it did a rering and head job. Drove it in a 68 chevelle, and my pickup for another 120,000. Now I've bored it and replaced the crank, did the heads again etc. for a total overhaul, and currently have 60,000 on it. These things run forever.

Bought the impala from the original owner, my 92 year old neighbor. It was one of those cars with all the records etc. However he had a little trouble parking and had really dented the thing up. Plus it was butt ugly and green! lol . It was still the best money I ever spent.

Tas

its not a SB2 its a GenIII, the LT1/LT4/L99 were all GenIIs which had reverse flow cooling. The LS1/LS6/(4.8,5.3,6.0 Vortecs) family are GenIII. A SB2 is a version of the GenI that NASCAR used. The SB2.2 was their revised version

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS.6
Mods and times:
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8Mike9

<<Got Beach?>>

Hey Tas, about time you removed that MOPAR thing from your sig

Sleipnir

ok so what would be the best engine to build up? like say if i wanted to goto a junkyard and pull and engine to rebuild and improve, what kind of engine/car would i be looking for??

gruveb

Sleepin'

The "Best" engine depends on what you want out of it. If you just build an engine without knowing specifically what you expect, you're bound to be disappointed.

Work it from the other direction. What would be your idea set up. Don't think of engine size or anything, think of acceleration, gas milage, reliability, drivability and so on.

After you establish what it is you want, then ask what engine build up would do this..........

That's why I have picked a 327 build up. It fits what I want my car to do.

For what I want, more isn't better (383).

Tas

besides loving Mopars. I liked the Roadrunner in the pic. I've been looking for one of the last Roadrunners made in '76-'80 Check out the pic I had my friend make. http://members.tripod.com/grk_taz/lastrunner.html

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS.6
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IROC315

iTrader: (9)

You guys got me motivated to tear down my 65 327 shortblock out back that my dad gave me years ago and see what it's got in it. I am definatly hanging onto it.

agawam

first off I read some misinformation here, not all small journal cranks are steel and forged large journal 327 cranks do exist in fact I was just offered one a week ago and I own a 4bolt stock 327 and have seen two others they were all 1968s, I'm an old guy and was there when this stuff was new,I was there when cars didn't need to be completely restructured to handle 400hp they came that way, I was there when you could open a hood and see the engine

89ProchargedROC

377

big bore of a 400 (4.125")

small stroke of the 350 (3.48")

high revving cabaility = lots of hp

my buddies 377 with a NITROUS CAM....ie 112LSA

went 10.1 @ 130 in a 3200lb car (including driver) ON MOTOR

Tas

I want every last detail of this 377!!!

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS.6
Mods and times:
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Got Beach?


[This message has been edited by Tas (edited October 14, 2001).]