FAST RS

I was looking at the 3 different bottles the 5000, 7500 and 15,000 mile oils and thoght it was interesting

The 5000 mile oil is just regular dyno oil
The 7500 mile oil is synthetic blend
The 15,000 mile oil was full synthetic

I just thoght it was interesting as i was origonaly under the impression that all 3 of them were full synthetic.

senatorcbp

Whats weird is if the full synthetic last 15k then dosent all synthetic last 15k. I would never keep the same oil in my vehicle for that long. It would be black as coal because of the filter not lasting that long. Companies keep making oil better and better but what they need to do is make longer lasting and better cleaning filters. Synthetic oil could last 15k if kept clean.

kevinc

Uh...you do know you're allowed to change the oil filter in between oil changes, right?

You're right about the filter being a concern running super long oil change intervals, just change the filter @ 5K miles.

katman

I'm an AMSOIL dealer and I'm not trying to push AMSOIL on you but we've had 25,000 mile and now 35,000 mile or one year oil for years. You just cahange the filter at 6 months. You need a filter designed for extended intervals like the AMSOIL or wix. I ran out of AMSOIL filters and put on a high end castrol filter. At about 6,000 miles it was plugged and started blowing oil out the seal. I changed it to a AMSOIL filter and no more problems.

FAST RS

Where do you get amsoil from and how much does it run i think i might run that in my bird after i brake in the eninge.

Tremo

Correct, the 5k mile oil is conventional dino oil. The 7.5k oil is a blend of Grp III dino oil and PAO synthetic. The 15k oil is all PAO.

Beware of what some companies call "synthetic", as due to a court ruling, they can call Grp III+ hydrocracked dino oils as "synthetic". Mobil's Mobil1 is a real deal PAO synthetic, no dino. Castrol and most others are not real synthetics (PAO).

I run M1 in my IROC, but I don't let it go 15k miles. I change at about 7 to 8 k. I also run an oversize K&N oil filter.

If you don't want to spend the big bux for a real synthetic, then an HDEO (diesel) oil is an excellent choice. Delo 400 and Delvac are excellent.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

more important than the fact that you have to actually change your oil filter when the oil starts getting dirty (...) is that extended life oil be it synthetic or not, is meant for idiots who dont properly maintain their car. They dont get the energy conserving seal that the regular mobil 1 full synthetic (supersyn) gets, which is much better than being able to leave the oil in for a few thousand more miles (supersyn can last 10,000 miles easy with proper filter changes). It's also specced 1 level lower than supersyn is.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Last time I checked, I still hadn't made it to idiot status.

I properly maintain my vehicles, all 6 of them.

I change the AMSOIL and filter every 25,000 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first, and the filter at half that interval. I've been doing that since 1983. I haven't worn out an engine with AMSOIL in it yet.

3000 mile oil changes are for idiots who have more money than sense. The "new" Mobil extended life oils are more marketing than science. Which is sad, because Mobil 1 is a decent product, especially when compared to the lawsuit synthetic products.

senatorcbp

Yeah, I know you can do this but my point if you can read carefully instead of cutting and pasting my replys is that filters are the weaknessness in maintaining clean oil. If you have to change the filter every 5k then you might as well change the oil as well. It not very expensive to do. Im simply saying that filters need to be made better and longer lasting at cleaning oil.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

nobody said you were an idiot, nor anyone who uses long intervals for oil changes. I said the extended life mobil 1 oil is made for idiots because their sole purpose is to make it safer for people who forget to change their oil when they're supposed to rather than to provide a better lubricating (lower friction) and higher quality oil. The extended life oils are rated lower and dont have the energy conserving label and are thus marketed to a group of people where oil life means more than oil performance.... ie. people who can't be busied with oil changes when they're required.

amsoil is completely off topic ...I dont know if their extended life line has the energy conserving label or is of a lower grade, I do know that is the case with mobil 1 extended life and that makes it easy to see where mobil 1's extended life oil market falls.

The New extended life mobil 1 oils are more than just marketing, they're lower grade oils than the regular superSyn full synthetic line from Mobil 1, so users of mobil 1 supersyn should just stick to using supersyn and leave the extended life line to the soccer moms.

kevinc

Editing my first reply as it was pretty harsh and not very helpful.

The constraints of cannister size, filtration media density, and economics make developing a filter that will go the extra miles pretty difficult.

Are you willing to pay the extra $$ for this theoretical filter? Not many people are, given that a regular replacement filter and a quart of synth oil cost less than $10...tough to design a super duper filter and sell it to compete with $10.

The industry has developed a solution to the filtration problem, in the form of bypass filtering. You install a second filter in parallel with the oiling system, and it cleans the oil extremely well without constraining system flow.

And re-stating my earlier point, your grammar makes reading your posts "carefully" pretty difficult. Take the time to state your points clearly, instead of jumbling them into illegible fragments, and you'll get better responses.

kevinc

This is new. Post your references so we can check it out.

I scored a 5qt jug of the Extended Life synthetic 15W-50, but if there is solid published data showing it's lower quality than the regular Mobil-1 synth it's going back.

FAST RS

When i was looking at the price per QT walmart prices anyway
5000 mile was like 1.77
7500 was 2.27 i think
and the 15000 was like 4 dollars and change.
Seems like the first 2 were cheaper then some of the other oils they had i would have expected them to be more.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

look on the bottle. no energy saving label and it's a lower grade. It's right there on the bottles. just check them out when you're in the store next time.

kevinc

Just went to my garage and pulled bottles, no energy saving API starburst symbol on either the regular SuperSyn or the new "Extended Performance" 15W-50 I use.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing...sounds like you're referring to the "5000" or "7500" mile versions of the new Mobil? (which I agree are just plain oil w/ pretty bottles"

senatorcbp

kevinc, yes people would buy more expensive filters if the filters were to last longer to match the manufacturers recommended oil changes. example if the oil is recommended for 30k then make a filter to last 30k. It is easier for people to simply change both oil and filter at one time. Most people are not car people and maintenance is usually done when they are told to do it not by their own due diligence. BTW i am sorry that my typing does not meet to your specifications but I do not type in a professional manner when I do not have to ( e-mail and such), but yes I can see what you are talking about.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

energy saving label is only on certain viscosities of mobil 1 super syn. 5w30 for instance. also 0w30. 5w30 is the oil a 92 camaro is supposed to use for a 305. The 5w30 extended life is missing the label ...as well as having a lower grade than the 5w30 supersyn bottle.

I'm talking about full synthetics here. I wouldn't waste my money on anything less than full synthetic unless the engine burnt oil.

kevinc

If you're interpreting the Energy Saving symbol as an indicator of oil quality, post your data showing this is the case.

Quite a few flavors of Red Line, Amsoil, and others lack the Energy Saving tick...you saying they're low grade too?

So, what exactly on the new Ext Life bottle tells you the oil inside is lower quality? Anything other than the Energy Saving star?

kevinc

Do you have marketing data to support that, or just your opinion?

AC Delco was selling $10 oil filters that were built to last, wire mesh inserts, super dense synthetic media, I ran them to 10K miles twice on my Ford and oil pressure never varied.

Lab test on the Amsoil 5W-30 showed it was pretty used up in terms of its TBN, but solid contaminants and wear metals were well below average for a 5K oil change interval.

Sounds great, I was planning to push past 10K miles, but Delco discontinue the $10 oil filters as they weren't selling enough.

So...what empirical data leads you to believe there is a market for expensive and long-lasting oil filters?

-Kevin

safemode

iTrader: (1)

are you serious? Give data? these are seals given only after extensive testing, showing that a given oil meets or exceeds various federal standards. There are international standards and US federal ones, oils must pass these tests in order to market themselves with the seals and labels.

It doesn't get any more clearer than this to determine motor oil quality and classification (within a given type, like comparing mobil 1 synthetic to other mobil 1 synthetics). A higher classification means a better oil, energy conservation reflects a better oil. This isn't something new, if you care at all about your oil this is stuff you should know already. It's been around for like 50 years to determine the grade and quality of oil so that companies dont just market the crap out of something that sucks.

here's a brief overview of what the terms mean. http://www.sizes.com/materls/engineOil.htm

here's the organization responsible for making the standards. In cooperation with SAE and others ...API.
http://api-ec.api.org/about/index.cf...02003002000000
It's an ugly url. you might just wanno goto
http://api-ec.api.org/about/index.cf...02003002000000
click the first link on the main page content.

There are things these standards dont tell you about an oil that could influence what you consider better or worse, but when we're talking about full synthetic mobil 1 vs another full synthetic mobil 1... they are the only thing worth noticing between the two products.

Vader

From what I've been able to determine, the "Energy Saving" label is also found on conventional (mineral) oils in some grades. It appears to be more related to viscosity than base stock composition. A 5W-30 mineral oil is going to pump more easily than a 20W50 PAO lubricant.

For example, I have some very old single quart containers of Mobil 1 "Tri-Syntheitc" and they are NOT all labelled "Energy saving". The 5W-30s are labelled, but the 10W-30 and 15W50 containers are NOT.

Energy savings and long engine or long usable oil life are not necessarity related, and are also not necessarily mutually exclusive. Don't confuse the two. "Energy Saving" oil might only be safe to use for 3,000 miles of less, while "Energy Saving" synthetics may be safe to use for over 20,000 miles.

I have also not been able to confirm that the Mobil 1 SuperSyn "7,500 mile" product is a blend of hydrocracked mineral oil and PAO. If you have data to support that, I would be very interested to see/read it.

From what I've been able to determine, the "new" classification for Mobil 1 as a 7,500 mile product is a marketing tool. It appears to be the same PAO base stock that Mobil has been producing since the 1960's. AMSOIL was the first to be clever enough to blend and market it for consumer use, but except for minor formulation changes, the base stocks are the same as they always were. Those products have been used for extremely high mileage change intgervals for many years. The fact that Exxon/Mobil has just now decided to identify them as "7,500 mile" products is likely purely a marketing effort to differentiate it from their new blend, just as Kev indicated. That new "15,000 mile" blend may only be a higher concentration of pH control, EP additives, dispersants, foam depressant, and other items that CAN extend the useful life to 15,000 miles (under the right circumstances). If that's the case, I'm staying away from it for now. I've had very good success with the original product.

Looks like someone needs to speak with Craig (or Mrs. Craig) and get the real story. The last containers of M1 I acquired are labeled the same as the older ones I still have.

EDIT: Just an opinion, but SAE and API may be established organizations, but so is the KKK. The fact that they have made themselves self-important makes no impression on me. Their tribologists appear to be on average about 20 years behind the curve as compared to most other segments of the lubrication market. After over 20 years, I STILL cannot find an engine oil that has an ISO or SUS grade on its label.

senatorcbp

Its my opinion. But 10 years ago before all of the synthetics became popular who would say thay they would pay up to 5 dollars a quart for oil. If they would have marketed the product properly ( the filter you used) then it would have sold. Now im not talking about a filter that cost 30 dollars but somewhere in the 10 to 15 range then, yes, I would buy it if it was proven to work well.

kevinc

Opinions are tough to change.

For the cost of $10, I get a brand new filter and the quart of oil it contained. Any filter that costs more than that isn't a good investment for me.

kevinc

Thanks for the links, but I'm a member of SAE and have been for a few years so I've seen their stuff.

Both the previous Mobil-1 synth 15W-50 as well as the new Extended Perf 15W-50 have the same API SJ designation, and neither have an Energy Saving tag. I put both containers side by side and compared, identical API certs on both.

So your statement that the new Ext Perf is lower quality oil still isn't making sense to me, sorry if I seem thick-skulled about it but your statements aren't adding up.

If you go back and read the spiffy links you posted, you'll see that the Energy Saving tag represents no qualitative or quantitative testing results other than fuel economy of the test apparatus. Nothing about purity, thermal stability, total base number, or any other quantitative metrics associated with oil.

El Cheapo 5W-30 store brand oil has Energy Saving designation, is it your impression that indicates it's higher quality than Mobil-1 15W-50 or Amsoil 5W-40??

safemode

iTrader: (1)

5W-30 is the recommended oil for thirdgen V8 305's as far as i've seen (stock). My car has no oil leaks, issues with oil pressure nor is it driving in insane cold / hot temperatures. Since nobody in the beginning of the thread mentioned any extenuating circumstances, it's assumed they're talking about 5W30, or something very close (15w 50 is not).

My bottles of 5W30 supersyn have the energy conserving label (which is quantative (whether it means anything in real life is moot) since the only way to compare them is in a test environment). They also have a rating of SM, better than SL which is better than SJ.

Quote:

So your statement that the new Ext Perf is lower quality oil still isn't making sense to me, sorry if I seem thick-skulled about it but your statements aren't adding up.

it adds up if you start from the beginning of the thread.

Quote:

If you go back and read the spiffy links you posted, you'll see that the Energy Saving tag represents no qualitative or quantitative testing results other than fuel economy of the test apparatus. Nothing about purity, thermal stability, total base number, or any other quantitative metrics associated with oil.

El Cheapo 5W-30 store brand oil has Energy Saving designation, is it your impression that indicates it's higher quality than Mobil-1 15W-50 or Amsoil 5W-40??

again, you need to read more than the very last sentence of the last post on the thread. As i said, ratings and grades and labels alone aren't enough to tell you if one oil is better than another oil from different manufacturers and they're not all encompassing in that whatever you consider better is covered by them. They have a fixed set of requirements and they do measure an oil based on their performance in the standardized test. So yes, even cheepo dyno oil can get some labels, but if you're going to compare oils so different as cheep dyno oil and full synthetic mobil 1, you'll have to consider features of the full synthetic oil that aren't covered by the standardized testing. oil life is one of them and it's performance beyond 3000 miles.

As i said, energy saving and the grades really mean something when you're comparing the same type of oil from the same manufacturer, in this instance, mobil 1 supersyn and mobil 1 extended life full synthetic. The lower grade SJ/SL of the extended life compared to the SM of supersyn and the loss of the energy conserving label doesn't justify being able to punish the oil an extra few thousand miles ...at least not unless you have a habit of forgetting to do oil changes when you're supposed to.

And yes, i'm aware that even SL is overkill for 15 year old engines, ..some will argue that synthetic is overkill for them too. That's not the point, the point is that extended life oil is not geared towards high performance , but rather sacrifices some performance for the sole sake of longevity ... not something anyone from here ought to really care about in their fbody's.

(edit) And by better/worse when we're talking about supersyn vs extended life, we're talking about differences that are likely only measurable in a test environment, otherwise you could just quit the thread now and conclude that just about any motor oil does the same job as any other mobil oil so long as it's the correct weight and viscosity for the use and it's changed and filtered as par recommendation of the manufacturer. but that's lame.

kevinc

OK, gotcha, the missing link just clicked into place here...you're looking at the new SuperSyn bottles and I'm looking at the previous SuperSyn bottle.

So it looks like the new SuperSyn got upgraded to SM specs, where the Extended Performance synth stayed at SJ/SL as the previous SuperSyn was rated.

Unfortunately they only sell 15W-50 in the Ext Perf flavor according to their website, so I'm stuck w/ that. If my oil analysis from this fill of Ext Perf doesn't come back as good as my previous SuperSyn yielded, I guess I'm shopping.

HalfInchWrench

NO matter what, the best filters you can buy is a K&N and a M1 filter.

Nothing else even comes close. Nothing!!!

Look it up if you don't want to believe me.

Vader

Not presented as an argument, but as an informational item, but if you read the owner's manual for your vehicle, you will notice the sliding scale of oil viscosities recommended for your engine. While 5W30 is the basic oil, you will notice that as ambient temperature increases, the viscosity recommendation also increases. Unless you're driving in 10°F weather, 5W-anything may not be your best choice for lubrication. It may help keep pressures down, and therefore allow easier pumping (and more energy efficiency) but could compromise lubrication.

If you are talking about synthetics, the "5W" designation is really not directly applicable, since the PAO acts quite differently across a wider temperature range than any mineral oil. That's where the SAE ratings really become meaningless. I'd much rather have the Saybolt times at different temperatures listed on the labels - Something that would actually be useful to the consumer.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

5W full synthetic's ambient temperature range is -30 to -40 F to over 105 F, which covers the majority of all temperatures people will be driving around in the world.

http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Oil%20Viscosity

that pretty much covers your position and mine.

MrDude_1

i know my PCV system sucks, so i change my oil every 3 to 5 k......



so as long as we're talking oil change intervals, what are you guys running for a total PCV system?

that has more of a effect on oil life then anything else.

you can run the best oil in the world, but if your PCV system sucks, its going to be acidic crap after 1k - 2k...

kevinc

GM PCV valve w/ the fixed orifice and no checkball, plus an AMW catch-can.

L98Driver

just stay away from fake synthetics like castrol syntec, pennzoil synthetic, Quakerstate Q, If ur buying storebought oil i would go with Mobil 1, it has PAO synthetic base stocks, if you are going for a boutique oil then go with Amsoil, it's better than Royal Purple, or Redline Oil, on another note for the 15,000 mile Mobil One extended performance you can change your filter every 3, or go with an amsoil filter that lasts for 12,500 miles, and then finish off the rest of the oil change interval with a filter of ur choice, or however u want to, u could even change it all then filter and oil if easier, on another note unless you are using an extended guard oil filter stay away from fram, with the exception of that filter they have cardboard end caps on them and i've heard they fail, also pennzoil filters are the same thing as a fram extra guard

FAST RS

Is valvoline a real synthetic oil like mobil 1?