Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

I am trying to find the best way to meet overall performance issues while also keeping my car a daily driver, though I do not drive far (has only 80k original miles on an 88). I think there is probably a lot of us out there that do not go to the track, but do like to know that we can beat that a stock (new) cobra, while still keeping the fuel bills down below the watchful eyes of the wife. LOL

I want to know what your opinions are on actually hitting the above goals. Here is a list; of the mods I am currently “mulling” over, or have currently purchased. Since I am writing this up for my website, I think it will be a great value to pick everyone’s brain to be able to show how someone can have a definite street machine, which still fits into us working stiffs budgets.

I welcome ALL opinions. I would like to keep a cost tally as well so we can go from ground up. My car was treated badly by the last owners so it needs, well, everything. So I am going to go over that.

* - Denotes already purchased

MSD6al Ignition – RevLimiter set to 5k *
Accel 300+ wires (8.8mm) *
MSD Blaster coil “GM series” Direct OEM replacement *
MSD harness (I figured I would add this in) *
Headers (hooker? Edlebrock?)
Exhaust – Needs to be street legal for us Californians
Moroso Aluminum Water pump
Custom burned chip
Hi flow TBI and matched injectors from turbocity.com
Intake manifold (thoughts)

I think that should do it, but I am open to all suggestions, like lighter pistons, 1.6 rockers??? Etc…

I am also adding.

Baer brakes (or similar. You suggest?)
New Rear End
Complete spohn suspension

I would really like to hear everyone’s opinions, as everyone seems to have a greatly varying opinion on how power and MPG can coincide in our Fbodies.

Later.

rezinn

Just a thought, but couldn't you get better gas mileage and power with TPI? It is pretty cheap to change over. I don't think you need a rev limiter, but the exhaust is a great idea. Everyone will tell you SLP makes the best headers, also the most expensive. The same goes for borla catback. The other favorites are edelbrock, hooker, and flowmaster.

ATOMonkey

That's the miracle of fuel injection. It can be tuned to run way different at WOT than is does a part and idle throttle. An even bigger miracle is the turbo charger with EFI. It's the most amazing thing ever fuel economy plus more power than should be leagal.

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'89 Red Formula 350- 350 .060 over forged pistons 232* @ .020 cam Performer RPM Holley 750 DP Vortec 1.94 1.50 Accel Coil and dist. Hedman shorty headers Dual Exhaust w/ cutouts 1LE WS6 suspension, wheels, and brakes, 9 Bolt 3.27 Posi Edelbrock LCA's & Track bar subframe connectors 700R4 Harwood snorkel scoop Eclipse Head Unit Delco Bose Speakers 2 12" Pioneer subs w/ 400 watt/chanel amp

brharris27370

I would like to add a couple of items to your list. LT1 cam $25 on ebay. The cams in our cars are worthless. 4th gen cars can get 27mpg with 275+hp. So there is no reason we can't too. You are going to need heads too. World Class 305 Torquers are probably be your best bet in CA. Use Edelbrock TBI manifold for same reason. Then a properly burned chip will yield the results you seek. Too aggressive or poorly designed chip will guzzle gas like there is no tomorrow.

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91 Camaro RS 5.0L Black Convertible 700R4
** Added so far **
*GM Wonderbar,Alston SFC's,spohn LCA's and Panhard rod
*Turbo City Inj Spacer
*Dual Snorkel Air Filter
*March Performance Pulleys
*GM 3.42 Gears with OEM Zexel POSI
*Edelbrock headers
*3" High Flow Cat
*3" Dynomax Exhaust
*Walbro 255 lph Fuel Pump
***Future 330hp Vortec Crate with LT4 hotcam and 454 TBI

brharris27370

I would like to add a couple of items to your list. LT1 cam $25 on ebay. The cams in our cars are worthless. 4th gen cars can get 27mpg with 275+hp. So there is no reason we can't too. You are going to need heads too. World Class 305 Torquers are probably be your best bet in CA. Use Edelbrock TBI manifold for same reason. Then a properly burned chip will yield the results you seek. Too aggressive or poorly designed chip will guzzle gas like there is no tomorrow.

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91 Camaro RS 5.0L Black Convertible 700R4
** Added so far **
*GM Wonderbar,Alston SFC's,spohn LCA's and Panhard rod
*Turbo City Inj Spacer
*Dual Snorkel Air Filter
*March Performance Pulleys
*GM 3.42 Gears with OEM Zexel POSI
*Edelbrock headers
*3" High Flow Cat
*3" Dynomax Exhaust
*Walbro 255 lph Fuel Pump
***Future 330hp Vortec Crate with LT4 hotcam and 454 TBI

iroc22

new cam, heads and intake are enough to hit 250hp maybe even more than 250

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

With a new cam, heads intake, and headers/exhaust... Do you think we are looking at 250+ HP at 25mpg? Especially on the LO3.

Also since hgear changing would probably be the next step, and sicne that messes with the MPg, what do you guys suggest? Jsut leave it stock? or? Also is going all disc ok? or is keeping the drums in the back the best course of action?

look forward to it.

James

Biochem

I was looking at 25mpg on the highway with close to 350+HP and 3.27 gears... but I was using a q-jet.

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1984 z28 w/ a 357 cu in. monster engine which is looking like the posterchild for Edelbrock with the exception of the Holley 750vac... all the suspension stuff... 9-bolt posi disk is in...

-=ICON Motorsports=-

iroc22

do not go higher than 3.23 in the rear. The reason is because you don't need overkill gears. High gears are great for a 7000rpm small block with a mechanical cam, but with a small powerband 305, the gears are no good. Guys change gears in their cars and they think their cars are faster because they jump of the line quicker but the car loses it's steam way too fast past 40mph. Do yourself a favor and change the heads, cam and intake and you'll easily be at 260 or 270 horsepower. Easily. Is your car auto or stick?

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Iroc22

My car is a; 1988 Camaro 'vert SC 305 TBI "E" code, auto trans.

Ok so here is the list, let's break it down to actual manufacturers, estimated horsepower gain, and cost.

MSD 6al
MSD blaster GM coil
High per. Cap and rotor (brass terminals)
S/R Torquers (anyone have worlds website?)
Edelbrock intake
14" open air element K&N
Accell 300+ 8.8mm wires
Custom burned chip (any suggestions from where?)
SLP headers to borla catback system
3.23 gears (is that right size? and any websites or particular manuf...)
Aluminum water pump
Underdrive pulleys (no alternator or pump)

Ok I think that is what everyone said. I plan on getting the car dyno'd here in a couple of days. I will than go out and buy every part, I will than install it all and see what immediate change we get, as well as dyno results.

Anyone want to chime in on a complete suspension and brake upgrade?

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

PS. I would rather have high end speed, or a perfect mix. So whatever gear that would be.

James

ATOMonkey

A whole lot of cars came with 2.73 gears that will fit in nicely. I got about 23-25 mpg on the highway(11 in town), and CHP dyno'd my combo around 400 HP, but I'm probably less since I have slightly less cam. Fuel economy did take a hit after the 9 bolt and 3.27's. Gotta love that overdrive though.

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'89 Red Formula 350- 350 .060 over forged pistons 232* @ .020 cam Performer RPM Holley 750 DP Vortec 1.94 1.50 Accel Coil and dist. Hedman shorty headers Dual Exhaust w/ cutouts 1LE WS6 suspension, wheels, and brakes, 9 Bolt 3.27 Posi Edelbrock LCA's & Track bar subframe connectors 700R4 Harwood snorkel scoop Eclipse Head Unit Delco Bose Speakers 2 12" Pioneer subs w/ 400 watt/chanel amp

Mark305TBI

When you swap the gears you'll need to convert to a positraction differential. You could find a 10-bolt rear with 3.42's and positraction in the junk yard. You could set this up yourself and save a wad of cash over buying the ring, pinion, and differential and paying someone to install 'em. Since you were talking about brakes above you might even be able to find a disk brake rear-end...Bonus!

-Mark W.
'88 SC Camaro w/ 305 TBI

zippy

well, your thinking on the right side of engineering. it very well could be possible. i'd recomend using vortec heads with the gm intake that matches. they make a tbi intake to bolt up to them heads just like it was supposed to be that way. i would recomend the heads from an L30 rather than the L31 though. headers i'd recomend is edelbrock since they will give you the lower rpm to midrange advantage which is where gas milage will be more friendly. i'd chose the slp cat back system for exhaust. tbi and chip from turbo city would be a good idea. aluminum water pump would help along with underdrive pullies to lower draw on the engine and preferrably aluminum. if rebuilt hypereutectic pistons with a higher compression ratio would be great to help it burn cleaner. 1.6 ratio rockers with a cam from an L30 or L31 would also be nice to keep milage.

as for the rear end, i'd chose the torsen style limited slip and in your case a take out model since your 305 isn't going to be breaking that or the hd model. the torsen allow's synthetic gear lube which is an advantage over the auburn. running synthetic with the auburn will only be a problem which is why gm stopped using it to switch to synthetic gear lube. this i learned after making the mistake just to have auburn tell me afterward that it doesn't work with their clutch/cone material. keep gear around 3.08 to 3.23. also keep tire size no larger than needed along with lighter weight wheels than came factory. good suspension with a well done alignment goes a long way with milage also. fiberglass hood would help elimate weight and keep the engine compartment cooler also. cold air induction/ram air is another thing to consider for milage and power both. well, this is a start. interested to see what other ideas are out there.

zippy

i did fail to mention that since your going for power and milage that a higher stahl speed torque converter would be great and once locked in wouldn't effect milage. consider an aluminum driveshaft too.

88IROCs

The cams in our cars are worthless.
- Depends which one. The 88 - 89 L98/LB9-man. cam is bigger than any stock LT1 cam.

4th gen cars can get 27mpg with 275+hp. So there is no reason we can't too.
Sure the 6-speed cars can do that, in the second-overdrive. But if you're on a tight budget, a T56 swap is probably not on your to-do list.

You are going to need heads too. World Class 305 Torquers are probably be your best bet in CA.
- More air in, requires more fuel,... and the WP 305 Torquers will definitely put more air into the cylinders.

Use Edelbrock TBI manifold for same reason.
- Good suggestion. The factory manifolds have a tendency to puddle fuel on the floor of the plenum,... bad for power and economy.

Then a properly burned chip will yield the results you seek. Too aggressive or poorly designed chip will guzzle gas like there is no tomorrow.
- I have run three different commercial chips in my L98's(JET, PR, & ADS) and none of them made a noticeable difference in fuel economy (+/- 5%)at part-throttle(at WOT you don't care about economy anymore). Since I've started playing with rolling my own, I've picked up 2 mpg(up from 22 mpg to 24 mpg). I'm sure if I concentrated more efort on economy(the mpg gains were more by accident than design) I could do a little better yet.

Instead of a *****-out quest for ponies, I think the emphasis should be on reducing losses. For instance, a Diamond Stripper windage tray & crank scraper will prevent oil from collecting on the crank. Even on 305 TBI that should be worth 10 hp. The beauty of it is that it is recovered hp,... you didn't need extra fuel or air. Cerma-Lube on the pushrod bores and the cylinder walls will reduce a lot of frictional losses, recovering more lost hp with no additional air and fuel.

There's a lot of ways out there to gain back the ponies lost to pumping and frictional losses.

Improving the thermal efficiency of the engine is another direction to explore.


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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world.
The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man"
--George Bernard Shaw.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

I lucked out really good on that. Was just planning on spending about 500 bucks on doing some rear end upgrades when I came across a rearend that had disc brakes Can't wait to get it in to replace the open rear with 2.73 gears.

West Coast GTA Man

God Bless some of you guys that are getting some good gas mileage! My cvar is rnning great, but gas mileage is a bitch. I get about 11 - 12 miles per gallon around town. Not sure on the highway though. It sure would be nice to get about 17 around town.
Later and good luck on your quest for better gas mileage. Like the guys said, it probably can be done.
Mike

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(Gran Turismo Americano) "The Ultimate Firebird"
Smokin 1989 GTA- Bone stock except for exhaust. (no catalytic-stainless pipe into Flowmaster 2 chamber).

brharris27370

L98/LB9-man are not TBI cars. The our cars I was referring to are TBI since the car that we are discussing and my car is TBI. The TBI Cam might make an interesting yard decoration but for an engine it is uterly useless. The LT1 cam is decent for a 305 engine and is very easy and cheap to come by. Sure there are better cams like an LT4 or LT4 hot cam but for fuel economy I don't think you will beat the LT1/305ci combo.

As far as the 6 speed. The 4th gen I was using from experience was a 94 6speed with 3.73 gears. Which was probably turning nearly the same RPM as the 700R4 with 3.23. I got 28 consistenly on the highway. So I knocked off a mpg for automatic. Results can always vary to but it still should be possible.

I like the idea of the windage tray and will add that to my list as well. I run underdrive pulleys on my car and the definitely improve fuel economy. Freeing up HP always improves gas mileage.

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91 Camaro RS 5.0L Black Convertible 700R4
** Added so far **
*GM Wonderbar,Alston SFC's,spohn LCA's and Panhard rod
*Turbo City Inj Spacer
*Dual Snorkel Air Filter
*March Performance Pulleys
*GM 3.42 Gears with OEM Zexel POSI
*Edelbrock headers
*3" High Flow Cat
*3" Dynomax Exhaust
*Walbro 255 lph Fuel Pump
***Future 330hp Vortec Crate with LT4 hotcam and 454 TBI

[This message has been edited by brharris27370 (edited July 20, 2001).]

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Ok I have compiled a new list, also have the story of the putting on of the brakes, and other stuff.

Last night my buddies and I set out to put the new drums on, since the old ones were really bad. Time to get the old slide hammer out. Got the drums off but took two huge blisters to my index finger when my finger got caught in between. OUCH! They are very black right now. Still hurtin’

Got those on, changed the front pads, that was EASY!!! I was really surprised. Still seems to have air in the line, Need to bleed.

Here comes the hard part. We installed the MSD 6al ignition with the 6k rev limiter. That went in without many problems and just a change of the radiator overflow position.

The coil!!! What a pain. There were rivets in the old coil to keep it to its frame. Had to file those out and than used nails to build new rivets. It worked GREAT.

Plugs… Ok why didn’t anyone tell me that changing the plugs on the LO3 would take three hours, many busted knuckles and cuts all over your hands LOL We attempted and only got three on! Pretty sad I know, but the number 5 plug I believe it was that is blocked by the o2 sensor was a real pain. We hooked up the new 8.8 accel wires, to the new distributor and realized we do not have a coil to distributor wire!!!!!!!!! Why wouldn’t they include it!!! UGH so now I am using the old one, until I can get a new one. We started it up, it ran but VERY rough, took a spin felt like I had a flat tire and transmission. Drove it back to check the firing order that my buddy swears he got right the first time. Well, it turns out 2 was where 8 was and vice versa. Changed the position, turned it over, runs GREAT. Smoother transitions, less hesitation. No HP gain but better running. One problem that I have encountered that a lot of people have is harder starts : -( I use to be able to flick my ignition and it would start now it takes a couple of cranks… Still good by most counts, but bad for what I had. Any way of fixing it?

Here is some really bad things I noticed.

1. My intake, where the thermostat housing and the intake meet, is bad. I have replaced four thermostat housings, and each time I get a new leak, it blasts my engine slowly and rusts out the housing. Any ideas to a quick fix until the new intake in two months?
2. I seem to be, god I hope not, having an oil leak at my harmonic dampener(?). As well as at the intake where it meets the block. To give you a visual think of it as looking at the thermostat housing than look down where the intake meets the block. There is a lot of “crud” build up.
3. My service engine soon light comes on whenever I am in overdrive and at free way speeds, 60+ I can’t understand it. I was told exhaust by one, and to be honest I have no muffler right now and the exhaust is kind of just there. Any thoughts?

Here’s the new list:

New driveshaft (which I was actually considering)
MSD 6al
MSD blaster coil
K&N open air element
8.8 wires
3.08 posi rear end (from what car should I pull this from?)
4 wheel disc brakes
SLP or edelbrock headers
Borla catback (?)
LT1 cam
Underdrive pulleys
Aluminum water pump
New harmonic dampener
58mm TBI (this is new what do you think, with matched injectors?)
Windage tray (where can I get one?)
Edelbrock intake
245/50/16 tires
fiberglass hood
305 torquer heads (or should I get the vette heads?)
I want pistons. Any suggestions. I don’t mind opening the engine and just using the core, but I want to keep it to the specifications above, unless you can get more HP for the same MPG.
Custom burned chip
Cap and rotor high perf.

I would like to lighten the engine, while giving it more performance. Also any price estimates, I say this because I do not mind dropping the dollars. Just need to know where, as I say that I should note I want to keep this 305. Unless I can get the kind of performance from a drop in engine?