RMC030

I posted my problem a few months back. (Somebody get me a Doctor!! )I took a break and then revisited the whole issue. I recently had the Fuel Pressure Regulator replaced. A bad Injector was found and a whole new set of Injectors was put in. (Can only purchase a set) The shop the car is at did the work then took the car for a ride and after a short run the car lost fuel pressure.

Now the tank is coming down again and a full overhaul of the pump and sending unit will be done. NOW, EVERYTHING has been replaced and electronics have been tested. Still chasing the issue.

Vader

Just to pull it all together, you are still having the same problems that you described in these threads:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=281853

And originally, this one?

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=266454


Just to further summarize, I'll list what I read you have done. Please correct me where I am incorrect:

1. To date, you have had the car in a repair shop several times for this problem;
2. The wiring harness and ECM were removed from an '89 305 TPI/TH700-R4 to operate the 350 TPI T-5;
3. The ECM PROM was custom burned by Ed Wright / Fastchips;
4. The cold start injector and VATS were eliminated;
5. The two cooling fans were wired together to provide "better cooling";
6. A high volume fuel pump was installed in the tank;
7. A new "5.7 Mass Air Flow sensor" was installed;
8. You have installed a set of new Ford 24 lb/hr injectors;
9. You have replaced the fuel pump at least once, and currently have a high volume pump installed;
10. You have replaced the fuel filter;
11. The fuel pressure has been tested both with and without vacuum at the regulator. Standing pressure was 40, and pressure under vacuum was 30 PSIG. As a result, you have since replaced the FPR.
12. You have replaced and correctly adjusted the TPS. The ECM still sets a '22' for low TPS signal after driving;
13. You are not sure of the pump voltage when you experience pressure loss;
14. The symptoms occur whether driving or sitting still revving it, which indicates that load is not a significant factor.

You mention that the "electronics have been tested", but do not mention the specifics. We're going to need some fairly specific information to get a real solution. We'll need ECM ALDL data:

• TPS percentage when the throttle is opened and closed;
• Fuel pump voltage indication from the ECM;
• Injector Pulse Width under load;
• MAF reading at various RPM/load;
• Engine coolant temperature sensor activity;
• Ignition timing advance at various RPMs;
• ECM operating mode flag when the problem occurs (open loop, closed loop, backup mode);
• Oxygen sensor data during the occurrence of the problem.

Your repair shop records should have all that data at hand.

In addition, we'll need to know the actual fuel pump voltage (not the ECM indication), measured as close to the pump as possible, after the ten minutes of running that seems to be causing the problem.

Some other questions and comments related to your information are:

• Was the pump inlet filter/sock replaced with the new pump?
• Was the fuel pump pulsation damper replaced with a new damper, or eliminated with a section of hose?
• What are the current fuel pressure readings?
• How were the two cooling fans "wired together?" Specifically, was another relay installed, and was the secondary fan switch removed from the circuit?
• What is the free output volume of the fuel pump?
• What is the fuel pump peak output pressure?
• What is the current TPS voltage setting at the closed throttle position?
• What is the reference voltage measured across the TPS with the ignition on?
• Did you know that the MAF is the same for both the 305 and the 350? You really didn't need to replace a good, working 305 MAF;
• You understand that fuel pump output pressure is very sensitive to input voltage.
• Have you disabled the EGR vacuum source during your analysis?

kevinc

Vader, dude, man, pal...you're talking to a guy who takes his car to a shop, (and uses multiple explanation points in his post topics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) not a do-it-yourselfer.

I think you made his head explode.

sellmanb

He can always print out what Vader posted and give it to his mechanic.

It almost sounds like there's a stray wire going to the fuel pump that's going through the underbody and gets heated up by the exhaust pipes and ends up not being able to send the same amount of voltage through to the fuel pump
...

or something like that...

most the time I like to K.I.S.S. (just ask my girlfriend ) but when it's gone to this extreme, I dont think it could be anything easy.

Vader

Maybe, Kev. But he (or she) can operate a computer well enough to post here. Given that, it should at least be plausible to gather the information and post it here as well. Except for a really lucky guess, I'm not sure we'll be able to pinpoint the problem(s) causing the symptoms.

If nothing else, it will assure that the shop has teted all the points asked about. I'm thinking that the data stream from the ECM is going to show something significant.

RMC030

To start, yes you are correct with the fact I posted my problem in November. I must also add that Vader is probably the only person I have taken advice from on that thred. Second, Kev has no idea the hours I have spent attempting to find and fix my problem. I reached out to this web site looking for a possible solution, if anyone else had the same issue. I have done 99.9% of all the work on my car. I pride my self on doing my homework when it comes to these projects. When I run into a problem that may be way beyond my knowledge, I am not too proud to ask for help. Even if that requires me taking the car to a shop. The car has been to four shops in my area to attempt find and fix the problem. It's not like I'm taking the car to "Clydes Garage". It is not a "Oh, stupid me, I forgot to put the battery cable on" problem. The exclamation points are for dramatic emphasis, if you didn't pick up on that, ********!!!! It is a shame that you didn't take the time to read the original post to get a better idea of where I was coming from. Instead, you opted to pass judgement on why I took my car to a shop. Now with that said, the fact that Vader has taken the time (yet again) to assist me, is impressive. I will make a copy of the post and give it to the owner of the shop to go over. I can tell you this, majority of the information asked for on that list has been gone over several times. I will have the list gone over, though. I will have an answer for the questions asked by the end of the week. Thank you for your time.

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

Did you ever check the bold type from this post?...

RMC030

I have checked the lines before, and I ran the car with the gas cap off. The exhaust is on the passenger side of the vehicle. The muffler is about a 1/2 inch to 3/4 of an inch away from the heat shield.

Vader

1. While vapor lock is possible in a car with an in-tank pump, it is far less likely because the lines are under pressure rather than the pump trying to draw vapor though the hot lines.

2. If you have already had many or most of the items checked, all you should have to do is gather the informatiojn from the shop reports and post it so more eyes can look at it. Hopefully, the shops kept records.

3. "Clyde's Garage" might not be all that bad, since Clyde can be pretty clever at times - Unless you were talking about a different "Clyde".

4. Don't get too defensive with Kev's questions and comments. After all, it IS a lot of material to cover. I read back through it since I was somewhat involved in the first instance, and I like the challenge of these pesky, elusive problems that tend to evade normal diagnostic analysis. That doesn't mean that I'll be able to help, but I'll try. I think Kev was just trying to do the same with just a little less time investment. It's going to help a lot if you can provide some of that data, however.

5. Hang in there. You'll get it done somehow. That car doesn't know what kind of determination it's up against. You're going to wear it down and get it to submit sooner or later.

RMC030

I got a call from the shop my T/A is at on Wed. I asked the owner how he was making out? He told me I would have to come to the shop, he could not explain over the phone. I stopped there and he had the gas tank that was in my car out on the floor. Next to that tank was another tank I had out of a 1991 T/A. He had both sending units out. First he showed me the tank out of the 1991. " This is what a gas tank should look like on the inside." Clean, still able to see the date stamp on the bottom. Then he showed me the one out of my car. The gas was a cloudy brown, and very shiny.When he tipped the tank backwards I saw about a half inch to three quarters of an inch of shiny metal filings in the bottom of the tank. Not mostly rust but new looking non rusted metal filings. I asked the owner what he thought. "You **** anyone off lately?" It appears, and I cannot prove it, but some J.O. may have spiked my gas tank. Now I know, with 100% certainty that when I put the TPI pump in the first time, in August, I drained the tank and I wiped the inside out before putting the pump in. IF someone did put the metal in the tank, it was between late September and late October. That's when I really started to have problems. When I dropped the tank the last time I did not look in the gas tank to closely. I'm sure I have some people that don't care for me, that's part of my job, but when you attack a man's car that's not right. I asked the owner of the shop if there was any possibility that the tank had rusted inside. " I have worked on alot of cars that sat for a long time, I have never seen anything like this!!!!(for Kev)" So, a locking gas cap has been purchased for all vehicles in my fleet. I ordered the new fuel pump last night and it should be here on Saturday. One part relief/ One part pissed off.

RMC030

I got a call from the shop my T/A is at on Wed. I asked the owner how he was making out? He told me I would have to come to the shop, he could not explain over the phone. I stopped there and he had the gas tank that was in my car out on the floor. Next to that tank was another tank I had out of a 1991 T/A. He had both sending units out. First he showed me the tank out of the 1991. " This is what a gas tank should look like on the inside." Clean, still able to see the date stamp on the bottom. Then he showed me the one out of my car. The gas was a cloudy brown, and very shiny.When he tipped the tank backwards I saw about a half inch to three quarters of an inch of shiny metal filings in the bottom of the tank. Not mostly rust but new looking non rusted metal filings. I asked the owner what he thought. "You **** anyone off lately?" It appears, and I cannot prove it, but some J.O. may have spiked my gas tank. Now I know, with 100% certainty that when I put the TPI pump in the first time, in August, I drained the tank and I wiped the inside out before putting the pump in. IF someone did put the metal in the tank, it was between late September and late October. That's when I really started to have problems. When I dropped the tank the last time I did not look in the gas tank to closely. I'm sure I have some people that don't care for me, that's part of my job, but when you attack a man's car that's not right. I asked the owner of the shop if there was any possibility that the tank had rusted inside. " I have worked on alot of cars that sat for a long time, I have never seen anything like this!!!!(for Kev)" So, a locking gas cap has been purchased for all vehicles in my fleet. I ordered the new fuel pump last night and it should be here on Saturday. One part relief/ One part pissed off.

RMC030

Sorry it was submitted twice.

RMC030

Finally, my fuel pump arrived on Sat and I may have my car back on Mon.

Hey quick question why is it that I submit a post, and there is a black dot in the middle of the chevy symbol on the side of the board? No one else has one.

thirdgen88

The black dot indicates that you are subscribed to that thread...

To quote Vincent Vega from Pulp Fiction:
"You just don't **** with another man's vehicles...."

RMC030

You are right! The shop took out enough of the stuff to fill a small stainless steal tray, say 6 inch by 10 inch. I'm still torqued up!

sellmanb

so lemme get this straight, someone put pieces of metal in your gas tank? Or they put something in the gas tank that would make it tear up the inside of it?

RMC030

If you have ever seen what comes from a brake machine in a shop, thats what this stuff looks like. If it all looked like rust I would say the tank was coming apart, but mostly all of this metal was shiny an new looking. The owner of the shop also believes that this stuff was deliberately put in the gas tank. A small amount I could buy as part of the tank, but a 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch in the bottom, no way. I pissed someone off.

Vader

I don't live in New Jersey, but I do have a locking cap. With fuel at over $2 / gallon, it can significantly help the mileage of the cars that sit outside. I don't have that kind of contamination problem, either.

Another possibility is that some other J.O. filled the nozzle of a pump at your favorite gas station with metal powder, but probably not that much volume. I've found paper towels in them before.

That explains the intermittent loss of fuel delivery, since the inlet sock filter of the pump would stop the metal, but also stop fuel delivery as a result.

kevinc

That would be tough to pull off in NJ, no pumping your own gas allowed by law. Not unthinkable that an irate gas station attendant did it, though.

It does really blow that someone took it upon him/her self to sabotage a 3rd gen like this. My factory 1982-vintage tank looked like new inside when I dropped it in 1998, after over a decade of cheap urine-grade gas in West TN...very unlikely the metal pile happened as a natural cause.

Vader

No self-serve in Jersey?

todd200

Nope. I don't live thier but I was reading something online about dumb laws that states have. That was one of them.

RMC030

I got my car back and everything is nice!! It runs like it should. Yes, the law is there to make life difficult.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

When you went through the academy, do you remember the videos of the girl on the cell phone while fueling up?

That's why the law is in place.

-- Joe

RMC030

Well Joe, I beg to differ. The reason that the explosion/ignition started was not due to a cell phone. It was due to static electricity. The whole theory of a cellular phone causing an ignition to gas fumes is a bunch of B.S. If a cell phone caused the ignition, why wouldn't a radar detector, pager (back in the day) or even a motor vehicle navagation system like say OnStar. If there is that much consentration of gas fumes while filling up, then people would cause explosions with the spark from an ignition system on there cars, let alone be passing out. Not that they are that reputable, but the show Myth Busters also dispelled the theory.

Back to the law on gas pumping

kevinc

By law, no. If the guy takes too long, I'll usually hop out and self-serve just to get things moving...nobody's arrested me yet.