T Dogg

Guys (and gals) i need your quick opinion on a terrible accident. Monday my 88 gta erupted in flames due to faulty injectors. A couple weeks ago i had my mechanic install a set of the ford motorsport injectors (24#'s) from the summit magazine. Like i said a fire started from my engine by the wiring harness. AFter the fire i had some people look at it and they thought that it started from a loose injector. One of the injectors was loose and had wet fuel all around it. My car did not leak fuel previously nor did it right after the injectors were installed. I went to my mechanic today to see what he can do and he said something about those injectors not being able to use the old injector retaining clips. He did tell me this when he put them in but i thought that once they were in they would stay in. Has anyone experienced a similar problem, any suggestion on who should pay my repair bill, wiring harness, injectors, spark plugs wires, brake master cylinder, some reservoirs, broken winshield and window and a few other minor things. The fireman who put the fire out broke my windows and dented my hood severely. Help anyone????
Thanks
tino

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RB83L69

The clips don't leak fuel, they're the electrical connector...

Sounds to me like you had a bad O-ring where the injector plugs into the fuel rail.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

8Mike9

Insurance? I think that's your only help.

Can't blame the shop, you supplied the parts, unless you can prove a fualy installation was done.

Can't blame the Fire Dept., your car was most likely a hazard at the time it was on fire.

Can't blame the manufacture of the parts (again, unless you can prove a faulty part), they'll most likely say "hey, these injectors are for Fords, not GM cars".

T Dogg

Yeah but when i ordered them from summit they said there would be not problems as far as using them for my gta would be. Cuz i noticed that the magazine said that the injectors were meant for mustangs with a tuned engine. I was gonna order the accel injectors but they were back ordered thats teh only reason i got the ford ones. So the retaining clips wouldn't make an injector come loose and leak?

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FastBroker

I am not sure but I have heard that there are two clip slots on those injectors. One ok to use and one is not ok. Again, not sure and if you only have one slot, I am a dumbass. good luck!

WARDL98GTA

i hade the same problem but it was my fault and thank god it didnt start on fire the problem was when you put the injectors in put a little clean oil around both o rings so they seat good. if not the injetor will not seat good and blow gas all over the place i have done it ever since and has worked great !!!!!!!!!!!

Guest

Theres clips that hold the injector into the rail, I do believe thats what he is referring to RB.

If those were not installed, that could have been the problem right there. On a ford, the rail presses the injectors down into the manifold far enough they cant move when its all installed. The GM setup doesnt work that way, there is more space the injector could move downward, so they used clips to prevent it from moving away from the fuel rail. I'd have to play around with the manifold, SVO injectors, and fuel rails I have to see if its possible to blow the injector down enough so that it doesnt seat in the rail anymore... Ill have to take a look later.

Rob P

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I was able to use the metal clips to hold the SVO's to the fuel rail when I installed mine.
Guess I'll be checking mine today but they have been in for awhile now with no problems.

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Rob P
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T Dogg

So one of you guys say the clips went on just fine and the other one says they didn't go on either. My mechanic recently looked at the car and he said it was an electrical fire cuz the whole wiring harness is burnt. He also said that if the injectors leaked they would have leaked right after he put them in. So it's my word against his, i guess i'm gonna be the one paying for it cuz i didn't have fire damage on the insurance. Fortunately i have a friend who just put an 88 gta with front end damage. He's gonna take the motor and tranny out and he said for 200 bucks i can have whatever i need. I wonder if the injectors are damaged?

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"Respect is everything"

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rezinn

I second the fuel rail leak. Those o-rings are *very* easy to break, and if you didn't replace them (all of them), the old ones are very brittle and I guarantee that they were damaged by being dismantled and put back together.

Can you tell where the fire started? Just because the wiring harness is burned up doesn't mean it caused the fire--that fuel sprays at about 45psi so just about anything could ignite.

Sorry to hear it man, that sucks.. I changed every o-ring when I did my injectors because I had one leak, and it was like a fire hydrant.

Vader

T Dogg,

I've never measured them myself, but I've heard that the 'O' rings used on Ford injectors are a smaller cross section. If the mounting holes in Ford rails and intakes are machined smaller, this would make sense. I've always cautioned people who use SVO injectors to use the GM 'O' rings because of this reported problem. The GM rings are a really fat cross section. A leak at the upper end could allow some fuel to spray out of the fuel rails. Sprayed fuel on a hot engine usually results in a fire.

If you really want to find out, remove a couple of injectors and measure the 'O' rings if you can find some that are undamaged. Compare those to a new GM 'O' ring and discover what might have happened.

As stated earlier, since you supplied the parts you would have a difficult time placing blame with the installer, but you would at least know the cause of the fire.

It seems rather coincidental that you would have an engine "electrical" fire immediately following injector replacement. And if the fuel rail/intake area did have a fuel fire, or course the wiring would get burned (DUH!).

People are far too eager to blame mysterious fires on wiring, because the wiring always gets damaged in a fire. I had an experience where a township/district fire chief inspector ruled a house fire an "electrical fire", but he was later ruled incorrect since the improper chimney installation started the problem (according to the insurance and state fire inspectors). It's easy to blame wiring because it's difficult to prove otherwise, but I would suspect your case is something else. Unless the wiring was incorrectly reinstalled, you should have had a problem with it long ago.

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Later,
Vader
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"Let the bodies hit the floor!"
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Guest

I measured the ones I have about 2 weeks ago, the overall diameter was .001 smaller as best as I could tell, the ID was the same, and the thickness was... guess what? Same. I just got these about a month ago, they are SVO injectors, and I compared them to a brand new set of o-rings from a Fel-Pro engine gasket kit (or two) for a 350TPI. I dont know if something has changed of late on the SVO injectors or what, but mine are fine. It may be they were using something different before than now. The actual o-ring dimensions are .575" OD, .040" thickness, and .495" ID. The hole diameter in the GM rail is .535". I did a test fit of the injector and jammed it into my 86 base as far as it would go, and popped the fuel rail on top. It seated in the rail, but not very much. Its possible fuel pressure caused a problem, the o-rings were smaller (Like Vader, I have heard about smaller o-rings too) or the injectors are shorter than mine (I have heard this too). In any case, an electrical fire sounds too coincidental to me.

D_Amlee

My SVO injectors have worked fine in my car since I installed them about two years ago. No leaks, no fires lately... although I haven't looked in the last five minutes. Hold on a minute...
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Ok, I'm back. No fires in the garage. IROC is still in one piece.

My experience says that the O-rings may have gotten twisted or slightly damaged during installation. If the O-rings are too dry during installation the friction between the manifold and the injector can create a lot of shearing force on the soft O-ring material and could cause it to get sliced partially (or completely) through. Lubrication on the O-rings during installation is mandatory to prevent problems.

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89 IROC with lots o' stuff

-=ICON Motorsports=-

Christobal

I can attest to the injector o ring outside diameter difference. It may only be .001 as measured by one above, but it seemed like a bit more, what I don't know. What I do know, is I trial fit some Ford Motorsport 24 lbers with their supplied blueish o rings and was not happy with the low friction fit they created in the rail and the manifold. I used the same c clips to retain the injector in the fuel rail that were used with the GM injectors.

Seems to me I ran one or two of my GM injectors without a c clip after a pre replacement trouble shoot teardown and felt comfortable with how they fit and subsequently had no problems with leakage. However, just to see, I attempted to fit the FoMoCo injectors without clips and saw this would not be at all wise.

I replaced the brandnew Ford supplied o rings with brand new GM o rings for the L98 etc application and replaced the two missing c clips and have had no problems with fuel leakage, including a few road race track sessions with heavy supspension (high vibration and jouncing). I lubricated the orings with ATF prior to install.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

As with D Amlee, I've had my 24lb/hr injectors in my car for about 2 years now, and other than always running rich, I've had no complaints. The steel line going into my FPR leaks like it's going out of style, but never injectors. Of course, in those last 2 years, the car has only accumulated about 5000 miles.

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BC86TPI-Z51

You know whats strange guys...a few years ago Ichanged injectors...I installed the C-clip on one of them backwards of the way it came off..that injector leaked fuel when you twisted it by hand....I seen something shoot out when the rail moved and i had the system primed to check for leaks...I seen the way I reinstalled the C-clip...took it back off again and put it the way the other went and locked down.
After that I pushed the rail around, the injectors, etc, no leaks to be found...whew.

Has anyone heard of this? I never thought it would mkae a difference if the clip went on the other way...in my case it did.. if so, or this is a possibility, I suggest people to check that direction they lock before and after when paying someone to do them.
Weird but true story.

T Dogg

Hey guys, i gave the summit tech dept. a call today to see what they thought. They said something about having to modify the fuel rail before putting the ford injectors in. I asked him if it was necessary to grease them and he said no. All the injectors came with new o rings already on them. Whatdaya think?

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"Respect is everything"

Long live the T/A!!

b4c1le

I just had a problem like this except I didn't have the fire, thank God! I purchased a set of Ford 19# Injectors off of Ebay hoping they would work on my '91 B4C Camaro. Well, there is no clips, and the o-rings are located in a different location. I decided to hook the fuel lines up and try everything out before I put the runners and plenum back on. I had fuel spraying from the injector tops.

The injectors are the same length, but if you look at the photo, the o-rings are in a different location, hence they will not seal properly with the fuel rail bolted down. I ended up getting 8 remanned injectors. Car runs like an absolue top now. Here is a pic that shows what I am talking about.

<img src=http://www.users.qwest.net/~pcs94lt1/misc/1.jpg>



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1991 B4C Camaro 305/5-speed, loaded, black, and running like crap


Some pics of the new arrival.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~pcs94lt1/91b4c/

Guest

Which one is which? My 305 injectors looked like the ones on the right before I replaced them, now they look like the ones on the left... sorta...

What I see is a blue o-ring that looks smaller, that is what looks like a problem to me. I ran some 19# injectors off a 92 302 in my car as well, and aside from the fact they probably werent any good, no leaks.

T Dogg, you can put them in without putting some sort of grease or other lubricant on the o-ring, but that just invites it to get damaged during install. I wouldnt put them in dry. And I test fit the injectors and didnt have to modify anything to get them to go in, even with the factory clips.

BC86, I cant think of any reason it would leak like that unless there was a hole in the fuel rail.

Kevin Irving

Another place to look would be the back of the fuel rail on the driver's side, where the cold start injector is plumbed into the rail. IIRC there are two o-rings back there and when I got my car back from the shop one time after they removed my driver's side runner they didn't tighten it correctly, one day I smelled gasoline under the hood, stuck my finger under the nipple back there and it was soaked. If your mech left that loose, or if it turned at all when he removed the fuel rail, those o-rings can pinch and it can be a VERY hard leak to spot. Just my $0.02

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Kevin Irving
85 Trans Am WS-6, 305 TPI, custom burned '86 PROM with '87 "165"ECM, Accel Supercoil & 8.8 Wires, Rapidfire #2 @ .055", MSD 6AL, 1.6:1 Roller tipped rockers, Homemade AFPR, K&N cone, no airbox, Aluminum Driveshaft, Wonderbar, TB Coolant Bypass, Ported Plenum, Descreened MAF, Syclone Fuel Pump, JET Airfoil, Mobil 1 synth in all but transmission.

http://www.geocities.com/transam85tpi/

T Dogg

I gave the summit tech line a call yesterday and told them what happened. They said that the ford injectors are a little shorter than the stock ones and in order for them to sit properly there has to be a slight modification done to the fuel rail. I don't exactly know what he meant by this (i don't think he did either) but he did say that whoever installed them should have noticed that the injectors were not seated properly. He also said that greasing of the o rings was not necessary. I got a guy who is gonna fix my car for me for 1200 to $1500. Should i replace all the injectors? I only think a couple are damaged. By the way i'm getting that parts car for 75 bucks (can't beat that), that includes almost ever engine part i need.

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"Respect is everything"

Long live the T/A!!

b4c1le

The Ford injector is on the right, the GM is on the left. If you notice, the lower o-ring is higher on the Ford injector than the GM injector. This doesn't make for the best seal between the fuel rail and the intake manifold.

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1991 B4C Camaro 305/5-speed, loaded, black, and waiting for mods.


Some pics of the new arrival.

www.users.qwest.net/~pcs94lt1/91b4c/

Guest

The lower oring doesnt seal to the fuel rail, thats the end that goes in the manifold. That injector looks just like injectors used in GMs as well.
Heres a pic Im borrowing from someone else..



As you can see, the lower oring isnt at the bottom of this injector either. What I am noticing is the upper area where the clip is supposed to go is where the second cut is on the Ford injector. I still say the problem is the size of that blue oring.

JoelOl75

The Ford injectors work fine, you must use the clips! From the pic you could see the upper o-ring is in the same position as the stocker, this would only place the bottom o-ring higher in the manifold.

If the 1/4 turn clips were left out for any reason I could see a fire. Ford or GM.... And the stock clips do fit fine on the Ford injectors if you put them in the right groove. The fuel rail bore is the same diam. Bottom to top as is the manifold. I've been running Ford injectors for over 15,000 miles by now without a prob (need to find some wood )

b4c1le

What I ended up doing is pushing the injectors into the manifold, then bolting down the fuel rail, that is why there was more clearance at the top of the fuel rail for me. I tried it with the injectors in the rail and I didn't think that they sealed that well at the bottom of the injector/top of intake. I think they would have leaked either way for me. I tried putting the clips in but the slot the clip needed to go in was the second slot from the top. The grove does not go around the whole injector, it is only a half slot on each side. Maybe I got the wrong injectors? I don't know? Either that or I didn't know what the heck I was doing? That has been known to happen before.

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1991 B4C Camaro 305/5-speed, loaded, black, and waiting for mods.


Some pics of the new arrival.

www.users.qwest.net/~pcs94lt1/91b4c/

Guest

I dont think its anything you did, there are changes in parts all the time that work on one application but maybe not another. Ive heard about problems with being able to reuse the clips, and different oring sizes. The ones I have here fit in real nice, no funny stuff at all. Who knows, maybe a year from now it wont fit in the Fords anymore...

Daz

iTrader: (1)

my 30lbers are as long as the 22lber..Went in no problem

Daz

JoelOl75

Anybody try shaving the 4 pedestals that the fuel rail bolts into? That would probably be the easiest way to change your injector height.

T Dogg

Well guys, i got my parts car today for 75 bucks. The guy who is fixing it for me is gonna charge me from 12 to 1500$ to fix it which i think is pretty reasonable. But i need your opinion on something. Should i the mechanice take all my ford injectors out and try to install my old retaining clips on them or should i send my old injectors out to cruzinperformance.com and get them repaired for $80 bucks?

------------------
"Respect is everything"

Long live the T/A!!

T Dogg

?????

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"Respect is everything"

Long live the T/A!!

Christobal

Absolutely run the old retaining clips if they are not damaged. Any that are, buy replacements from a GM dealer or possibly a parts house.

I would also suggest you obtain GM o-rings. See for yourself. If they are not fatter (larger outside diameter), then your Ford injectors came with fatter o-rings than did mine. I don't think the skinnier Ford o-rings would be a fire danger, they would just leave a greater probability of a vacuum leak. Also, if a c-clip, the retainers, where to malfunction etc. the fatter o-ring's tigher fit would seem to better hold the injectors down in the manifold.

If the plastic parts on the Ford injectors arent melted and you can still plug in the injector wiring plug, then there shouldn't be any internal damage to worry about. While you're at it, compare the used o-rings on your old GM injectors to the o-rings on your Ford units. I wouldn't reuse the old GM o-rings, but if they are fatter I would buy new ones and replace the Ford o-rings.

JoelOl75

You could get the Felpro TPI intake gasket kit. It comes with all the plenum/runner gaskets, tb gasket, intake gaskets and injector o-rings.

doc

I installed Ford SVO injectors several years ago. There is no problem with using the retaining clips on the top end of the injectors that keeps the injectors in the fuel rail. Also, the o-rings snap in very tight exactly the same as GM injectors do. I have done this several times. Also, I always insert the injectors into the fuel rail first and make sure this junction is secure and I use the retaining clips.

There is NO chance for a gas leak with the SVO injectors if they are installed correctly. There is no required modification needed for anything. Its a straight forward install. You should always use a little bit of motor oil on all o-rings when you install the injectors, and bolt down the fuel rail with those 4 long bolts. If the fuel rail sits down on the pedestals all the way , evenly around, you should be good to go.

Of course I was not there and have not seen these specific parts, but I would suspect a faulty installation.

Have you checked the o-rings after the fire? If not, I would remove the fuel injectors yourself and inspect them. Your mechanic will have his own agenda here. Do the work yourself and/or get a trusted friend to help.

doc

MAN! I'm sorry. I did not realize that I was bringing back something from 2001. OK, I admit to being brain dead from the flu bug.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Bringing this up from the dead (was looking for info on injector clips/tpi fuel rails…), in the debate about the ford/bosch style o-rings, everyone is right… there are actually 2 different part numbers for the o-rings that should be on the ford injectors, one thicker and one thinner, depending on the application that the injector was intended for. I believe that all the FMS/SVO injectors (silver bodies) are shipped with the thicker O-rings, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve ever sent them out to be cleaned/flowed if the smaller rings got put on them since most catalogs list the smaller o-ring as "ford/bosch" and the larger one as just "bosch…"