tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I have a 1985 camaro, with a carbed 350 in it and a CC qjet.

I failed PA inspection today.

I will post up the specs when i get the car.
They said it was running unbelievably rich.

I had removed the Check engine bulb and little bulb assembly, would this make it run in limp home mode?? (which is really rich)

I removed it because the damn ecm would not let the light flash so i could not scan the codes and you cant pass inspection with the ses light on. THanks, i have 30 days to lean it out and get it to pass. SUggestions are appreciated, i need help.

Goumba T

No, the ECM doesn't monitor the status of the bulb itself, so it has no impact on how the car runs.

Red Devil

I suggest you get the bulb back in and fix that issue first. You may even have an issue with the ecm itself. :shrug:

Trickster

Believe it or not but doing an oil change on your car before going in for an emissions check will help lower the hydrocarbons rate. Just a thought!!!!!!

Goumba T

Yeah I'm wondering what "it would not let the light flash means." Just by chance are you sure you're shorting the right pins?

Maybe a short causing it to be steady would result in the inability to flash.

Never heard that before, but I have to do my inspection tomorrow and did the oil today because I had time. Here's hoping...

tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

i changed the oil two days prior.

The Check engine light: the aldl (or whatever) I dont think is wired correctly. There are only wires in a few of the pins. Top row only and an empty pin in that row one in from the left. I will look at the wiring diagram to see which color wire is the diagnostic and which is the ground, but i grounded every available wire in it and no such luck. Does this mean i should change out the ecm for a new unit??

tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

My emmissions levels:


CO: 32.95 ------> limit 1.1

HC: 535 --------> limit 275

No: 595 ---------> limit 275

RPM: 2095
Dilution: 17.6%


The inspection guy said the car is running way way too rich to ever pass in this state. Will leaning it out get it to the limits, and if so how can I? I played with the screws on the carb tongiht turning them closed and then opening them 2.5 turns each.

AvantiHall

only way to get the car to pass the smog test is to get the computer in close loop and controlling the tail pipe emmisions.
most CO max limits will only go to 10 percent

very rich, start there!
to rich will cause high HC
high HC also cause by miss-fires also

once the CO and HC are corrected the NOx will go through the roof

rich mixture the NOx should be near 0 with the reading you have now!

I teach the Smog program in Calif.

Goumba T

How's your air filter?

http://www.gordon-glasgow.org/emissions.asp

And another:
http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/maintain/e...l_answer2.html

CCC systems have an O2 sensor, right? How old/crappy is yours? It may not be the only problem, but it doesn't help if its gummed up.

sellmanb

A full ignition tune-up before going in, then the air filter, PVC Valve (2 dollar piece that can make an amazing difference), O2 Sensor, and Coolant Temperature Sensor.

Those are all the things I would either have checked, or replace.

You might be asking why the Coolant Temperature Sensor. Well, simple really. If the sensor does not work, then by default the computer thinks it's like 0 degrees celsius (IIRC?) and just DUMPS fuel into the car to try to warm it up fast.

This happened on my mom's skylark once and the car had troubles starting, and when it did start it would smell like *** and run like such. Even after I replaced it it still ran like monkey poop... but that's just because I needed to change out the fuel fouled plugs.

Also, do you have the original catalytic converter? You could use this as a good excuse to upgrade your exhaust.... get a nice high-flow cat from Catco, and a 3 inch mandrel bent cat-back.... sense you're down there anyways

tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

Update on problem and looking for a few tips:

I found that the fuse for the ecm was blown in the dash fuse block. I checked it like two weeks ago and i guess i missed it, the wire was attatched, but there was a small burn mark on the fuse so i replaced it and the light works now.

Q1: Now that the ecm comunicates, does it mean that with the bad fuse, the ecm was not controlling the car functions??

Q2: WOuld that bad fuse have kept me from getting into closed loop?

After i installed good fuse i checked codes, got none. So i let it warm and drove it for like 10mins and i got code 13. When that code came up, is that when i achieved closed loop.

SHould i replace the o2 sensor and go from there?

I have a misfire, but i think i may have gotten that from playing with the mixture screws on my cc qjet. They are a bitch and i never should have messed. They were already tampered with by previous owner.

Any help would be appreciated. I also want to check the cts for proper voltage and resistance but do not know the procedure to hook up my multimeter to it.

tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I found my MAP sensor on pass side firewall. There is no vaccum line to it. ALso, i have a Vacuum sensor (i think, from the manual) on the driverside firewall. Both look similar and have electrical hookups attatched. Are these separate sensors, or did the guy that did the swap put in an unnecesary MAP sensor.

If I should hook up the MAP vaccuum where on the manifold should i run a line from??

copperhead110

if the check engine light is on, the car goes in to limp mode and I bellieve it dumps in extra fuel. If you eliminate the problem causing the light, you'll probably pass emissions.

I don't know what code 13 is and I can't find it. My manual is at home. I'm surprised all the codes are listed on this site somewhere.

If code 13 explicitly calls out something, you might want to replace it.

The MAP sensor should be on the intake manifold. The MAP sensor reads the intake manifold air pressure.

I'm no expert so a second opinion is advised.

EDIT: my search for code 13 worked!

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ble+code+codes

RednGold86Z

iTrader: (1)

The "MAP" sensor on the passenger firewall is the Baro sensor in cc q-jet apps. This requires no vacuum tube to anything. The vacuum sensor on the driver's side is the MAP sensor for the engine/computer. That does need to have a vacuum tube to the port on the manifold/carburetor. If disconnected (no vacuum tube) there will be no vacuum advance, and fuel economy suffers (but full throttle power is unaffected).

I had to get my ccc Z28 to pass CA emissions last summer, and found that just by tightening up the carb screws throughout, and resetting the idle screws to about 5 turns out (I think that's what it was), and fixing a bunch of broken vacuum T's and lines (including the one for the vacuum/load MAP sensor), that I was able to get emissions well within limits, even though I had driven it for years in Iowa with all these problems. I work at a fuel injection company, so I had a gas analyzer and whatnot, so I was able to see the difference. Surprised the original cat still worked like a charm.

If you have access to a scan tool, check the code, and fix it. Also, check to see what the mixture control solenoid duty cycle is. If it's pegged at 10%, or something like that, then you'll probably have to adjust the idle mixture screws.

Good Luck.

Danno

Tom, I live in PA also and the enhanced test they use now is a bitch. First thing to do is to get a decent DVM and monitor the O2 sensors output after the engine is warm. Book tune the carb as required. Look at the O2 sensor voltage, in closed loop when hot it should read around .4-.55 volts and the voltage will be always changing so you may have to average it out. Up towards .75-.9 volts is rich and that is why you can't pass. As all the other replies stated you need to have a good running engine, i.e. tune up etc. An intake manifold leak can be one source or problems. make sure the gaskets are all tight, carb to intake and intake to block. If the engine is running OK you might try a heated sensor. Bosch has a kit you can get and they work very well. Also make sure the exhaust system is tight.

tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

RednGold86Z:

if the MAP sensor does not require a vaccum line to it, then why does it have a provision for it on the underside of the sensor. There is a vacuum hose nipple thing???

I have a cc distrib, not vacuum advance. ALso, I do not know the condition or specs of the engine as it is a 1977 350 block, and I havent checked the heads yet (let alone done a compression test). I have oil leaks but the engine seems strong. I am going to change out the plugs, i think they are fouled from being too rich, (black plugs), and hopefully it will no longer missfire at idle.

If anyone has a tip on the idle mixture screws for emmission please add it, like the number of turns opened for best emmissions and then the number turns for best performance.

85cmroz28

It seems simple to me...your ECM is throwing you a Code 13(Open Oxygen Sensor Circut) which puts you in closed loop, hence the rich mixture. Replace the sensor with a Bosch #12014 and work from there. I'm glad i ditched the computer and don't have to worry about this sensor crap anymore :lala:

tommy z-28

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the advise, but I have replaced the o2 sensor a week ago. The thread is misleading.

mdricken

Shoot your legislators and those that voted for them.

84taowner

Amen!

Anyway, if it were me... I would get a manual for the car. Then I would check and make sure that there are no broken VAC lines, etc, and that your AIR system is working as it should. Then follow the books recomendations on checking to ensure each sensor/accuator is working smoothly and as it should. Reading about what each sensor does gives you a good understanding about what may be the problem and why.

In all honesty, it just sounds like the carb is the culprit. Get it check out by someone who knows the Q-jet well. Your check engine is a good indication something is not right.

Brian

Danno

Tom, another idea is to just get a waiver for the next year. You need to show a receipt that you spent $150 for repairs by a licensed shop. That might buy you the time to solve the problem. I read all the threads and unless I missed it it doesn't say what the mileage on the engine is and whether there are any aftermarket components on it. Also, you might retard the timing. Most decent guys will help you get it to pass.

wulff

That is correct, the oil gets saturated with gas from blow-by and it gets pulled into the combustion chamber via the PCV valve.
And as you mentioned it does indeed help emissions a friend of mine failed and only changed the oil and it passed!