Bort62

Allright guys, This Is a bit of a follow up On a post I made a while back, Ive proceeded to get myself A little On the confused Side.

There are Two 6 and 3/4 Harmonic balancers. One with the Timing Mark strait Up Above the Keyway, and one with it Offset approximately 1.75" From the Keyway.

Soooo, Since The Lg4 in 85 came Stock with the Offset Style, and I replaced it with a Strait Up Style, How Much Do I have to compensate On My Timing To Make the other Mark read true.

By My Calculations, It should Be about 15*. Now, is this Advanced Or retarded ( Or am I just retarded ? )

Using a Dial back Timing light, I can get Up to 60* advance. However, I cannot Dial In retard. ( 1-800-Retard )

If someone Could answer these Questions Definitavely For me, It would be Nice, I am trying to dial in My timing Curve very specifically and Obviously, This is a bit of a obstacle.

Thanks Alot, Hitting the 1/4 on saturday and need to establish a baseline before i Start making the little adjustments



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

Apeiron

Get the timing pointer to match and you won't have to compensate for it at all.

zroc

sounds like its time for a degree wheel and tape...

zroc

8Mike9

I'll probably screw this up, but what the heck....

The circ. of a circle is 2*pi*R

so 6.18*3.375=20.86

the ratio of the offseet of the mark would be 1.75/20.86= 8.39%

8.39% of 360 degrees is 30.2 degrees.

Now I'm not a math major, nor do I play one on TV, so please double check my work

SUPER-SPORT-CHEVY

I've wondered this my self except my senario was the reverse of yours. I ended up changing the ballancer, but in your case I recomed making life easy by purchasing a 3.99$ timing marker and slaping it on. There is a way to time it with vacume but im not to familar with how its done.
SSC

Bort62

Question Is, Will I be able to see My new Timing Mark, With a Long Styl Waterpump ?

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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

RB83L69

This is a carbed car?

Who cares what some mark says, this week, until the inertia ring runs around on the little blob of spooge to somewhere else? Just set it to where the car runs the best.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

Bort62

Well I would Do that RB, but im trying to Get as Much Initial timing as I can w/o Ping under load, then dial in my adjustable Vac advance to Put in as much as it can w/o ping under no load, Yeilding the best milage and best performance possible



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

RB83L69

So where does a mark figure into all that?

Sounds to me like you get into the car, hit the freeway, floor it through the gears; if it doesn't ping, stop, crank the dist CCW; repeat until it does ping; stop, back it off a little; add some high-vaccum advance; go up a hill at cruise in high gear; see if it pings; if it doesn't, stop, add some more; repeat until it pings; stop, back it off a little. Done. No mark required. I don't see where a mark speeds up or otherwise improves that process any.

I guess I'm just too lazy to fool around with some kind of a mark that doesn't contain any meaningful data. That is to say, if the mark was within one degree of dead-on-*****, would you have to experiment any less to get optimum results with your compression, heads, cam, carb, gasoline, altitude, density, ambient temp, coolant temp, gears, driver preference, and all the other things that determine optimum timing? Would it make any difference if the mark even existed?

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited June 11, 2001).]

Brent

iTrader: (1)

I think the timing mark has merit. I want some sort of reference so after I've spent alot of time finding the timing the engine wants, I can set the dissy back to that spot incase I have to tear down. The numbers aren't really important, just a reference. TDC on the balancer can be checked easily with a piston stop. Marking the center hub will tell you when the outer ring has slipped.

8Mike9

RB, since moving to Ca., have you had to have your car smogged yet? If so, you'll find that many, many places will not pass you if your timing is more than +/- 2*'s from factory spec's, I'm not sure if this is actually a law, but worth looking into.

Apeiron

Lean waaaaay out over the car and aim the light straight down the front of the block behind the pump.

AJ_92RS

The circumference of a circle is diameter*pi. That's all. Nothing more. So the way you had it would be 2*r*pi. But 2*r would be the diam.

The Area of a cirle is pi*radius/squared.

Edit: Make that radius/squared*Pi. You gotta do the square part first, then multiply by Pi. Sorry

[This message has been edited by AJ_92RS (edited June 11, 2001).]

AJ_92RS

You can also use it to set/check your timing curve. That is just as important, if not more, than your total timing.

8Mike9

You sure about that AJ? I gotta go do a web search...it has been 22 years since highschool, but didn't think I was getting that old to forget

Back in a few....

><><><><><><><><><><

Try this link:

http://www.geom.umn.edu/docs/reference/CRC-formulas/node25.html#SECTION016000000000 00000000

It also shows the circumference of a circle as 2*pi *R



Oh, and no, I didn't have it as 2*R *pi

[This message has been edited by 8Mike9 (edited June 11, 2001).]

Bort62

lol Okay guys


Communutive property If 2*r=D

A*B = B*A, A*B*C = C*B*A

Then 2*pi*r = 2*r*pi = d*pi

mix and Match how you like, With multiplication and Addition, It dosent matter
( subtraction and division are a differnt story! )

Rb, I am tryin to establish fairly accurately what My timing is across the rpm Band, by taking measurements every 250 RPM from 500 to 3000, and graphing it vrs each other With Differnt settings Of Initial Timing, Vaccum advance, and Advance weights and springs...

THUSLY I will get an accurate portrayal of exactly where My advance is at at what RPM depenant on Load, and I will be able to see what Im working with, and maximize it for efficency.

I want To go faster For free, Tuning people Tuning

On a Carbed car, You have control Over Mixture, Temperature, Timing, and Plug Gap, These things Will Make or break The Engine, regardless of the $$$ In parts it Is made up Of.




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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -&gt; My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

JoelOl75

Simple, every inch on a 6.75" balancer is equal to 17 degrees.

Well, actually 16.97 but 17 will work...

8Mike9

DOH!!

Light bulbs are beginning to come on.

But, hey, I did get the circumference right, huh?

JoelOl75

Can you step up to the 8" balancer in the third gens without any probs? I heard the models with factory engine oil coolers the hb hits the coolant line, but how about w/o the engine cooler. Any other probs (pulleys bolt right on?)

Ed Maher

Hey bort, grumpy has apost on the PROM board selling a complete TPI setup w/ a SD ECM (you need a harness and fuel pump, thats it) for $150.
join the dark side....then you can see your timing for every condition...woo hoo

Bort62

No **** Ed ?


Hell with this stickdadikinda *** BULL****!

I can Almost Afford that, lol



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -&gt; My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

Ed Maher

Yeah, no sh it...it's titled Early TPI...better get an email in soon cuz if too many people read this, somebody will take it.
Of course there's still the issue of that cam w/ TPI, but hell, maybe you could sell your top end and cam and recoup the cost of the swap and something more TPI friendly.

Bort62

You are a *** ed

He wants 300 ! Got me all excited an ****...


As far as that being to Much Cam, I could work around it, I mean after all I have you To write me chips, right ?




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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -&gt; My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

Ed Maher

i *love* the chip i have in now. I drove around a little for lunch and didn't get any pinging whatsoever. And my car loves all this low end timing i'm giving it.

And 150, 300, same difference. I'm lucky to remember my name these days

Bort62

Just rememeber your lean!

Now, be useful, and Find me a list of Secondary metering rods frmo richest to leanest, So I can Fufill this pipe Dream I have of going fast with a Qjet!



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -&gt; My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

AJ_92RS

Did anyone on this board take geometery in school? Go to http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/v...umference.html

Here's a shortened Ex.
The radius of a circle is 2 in. What is its circumference? (Use Pi = 3.14)

Solution: C = Pi · D
C = 3.14 · (4 in)
C = 12.56 in

As far as area here's and Ex.
A = Pi · R · R or
A = Pi · R squared
The radius of a circle is 3 in. What is its area? (Use Pi = 3.14)

Solution: A = Pi · R · R
A = 3.14 ·(3 in.) ·(3 in.)
A = 3.14 · (9 square in.)
A = 28.26 square in.

BTW, it does matter what order that's done in. I just wanted to make sure you knew not to multiply pi*radius, then square it, to find the area. You have to square the radius first. I just screwed up the way I wrote it the first time.
As far as circumference, it don't matter which way it's done, because you aren't squaring anything. I was just showing the simplified formula as dia.*pi, instead of R*2*pi, that's all. Even though I'm square.

[This message has been edited by AJ_92RS (edited June 13, 2001).]

Bort62

<--- Calculus III next Semester


But Its Still Not adding up



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 15.26 @ 87.0
Reader's ride -&gt; My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

Ed Maher

dude, just get some timing tape and be done with it for christ sakes. Or bust out a tape measure and do it yourself. Timing tape can't be more than a few bucks...

JoelOl75

Yeah, all this balancer stuff and marks in diff spots is freakin me out also. I'm just going to fab up a pointer to point anywhere on the balancer. Use a stop to find TDC, stick timing tape on it and be done with it...

D_Amlee

Oh, now I get it. You're **** retentive! Now I understand!
j/k


I think that what Rb was trying to say is that even if you are trying to map out your timing curve and fine tune the thing for optimum performance, the shape of the curve will be the same regardless of the actual starting point of the curve, so the actual numbers on the balancer at idle are sort of immaterial. Whether the base timing is zero or ten doesn't make much difference as far as your tuning goes. The magnitude of the changes you make, and the rpms at which you make them are important, but if you add four degrees of advance at 2750, say, it still becomes four more degrees of advance at that point regardless of what your base timing was.

I would just suggest picking a spot and calling that your zero point and working from there. YOu have better things to do than trying to futz with the balancer.


BTW: Math minor along with my aerospace engineering degree. Three years of college math. Toss me some challenging formulas for a change, guys!