five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Here's the link for the AMSOIL portion: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html . The Mobil 1 test is embedded as a link within the text of that page. As of today's date, they don't have the final oil analysis test results, which are expected next week.

Some comments were made on this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=268973 . I wanted to get more information before responding, and rather than highjack the other thread, I decided to start this one. (Note: Their test has been updated since the last posting on our other thread.)

It will be interesting to see what happens when they put Mobil 1 back in, but they are predicting they won't get back into the "test" until Feb 05 - they're in the M1 "flush" phase right now.

Last weekend I talked to a local AMSOIL dealer who spends a lot more time doing this lubrication stuff than I do. He called the viscosity increase effect "nitrification", and said it is more prevalent in high performance, lean burning, high combustion temp, fuel-efficient engines - the LS1 certainly fits in that family, while our factory-equiped 3rd gen engines would not. His personal vehicle is a Dodge Ram 1500 pickup with the 5.2 liter V8, part of the "susceptible" family, and he's noticed the effect as miles accumulate on an oil change in that engine (he gets regular oil analyses performed as well). He doesn't see it as a particular problem, and simply changes the oil when it is trending towards going out of spec before the next sample is due. He added that oil manufacturers have to decide what "features" they are going to concentrate on as they formulate their oil within a certain specification (API SL, GL-3 or -4, for instance), and AMSOIL has chosen to go for wear protection. (For what it's worth, he has gone to a different AMSOIL 5W-30, what they call their "heavy duty" oil, which is formulated for both heavy duty diesels and gasoline engines. It costs more, as you might expect, but he says the viscosity increase phenomena is surpressed - at least in his experience.) Finally, this isn't an issue if you don't go for the extended drain intervals that are possible with synthetics vs. petroleum (note these guys did not observe the viscosity increase until the oil had been in use for 8000 miles and 6 months).

I have some other observations of my own:
1) They did not follow the AMSOIL guidelines for extending drain interval - namely, use of both the AMSOIL oil and air filter; and oil filter change interval - six months or 12,500 miles, whichever comes first if using an AMSOIL spin-on filter, or at the factory recommended interval if using any other filter, which would be 6 months or 7500 miles at most for the filter they used. Had they followed those recommendations, the results very likely would have been different.
2) I don't know on what standard they based their oil filter change criteria (I know they said ".6% insoluables", but I don't know where they got that). Again, had they followed AMSOIL's recommendations, either by using an AMSOIL filter or changing the filter more often, the results may have been different - for the record the filter would have been changed right about where they noted the viscosity had increased above 30 weight. It may also have been different if they had changed the filter at the same point they changed it during the M1 testing.
3) My comments in the earlier thread about viscosity increase among various products were based on Noack volatility tests per ASTM D-5800. For that test, an oil sample is heated to 250 degrees C at atmospheric pressure for one hour, and the percent weight loss is measured. The less that is lost, the better the oil is at maintaining viscosity due to high temperature effects (lighter constituents have boiled off, and/or oil or additive constituents have oxidized). This will not account for viscosity increase due to shear or nitrification. Other than this internet project, Noack is the only test of which I know that is available to compare different lubricants for viscosity change characteristics.
4) M1 also exhibited viscosity increase at 16k miles, even effecting how the engine ran - a symptom not reported during the AMSOIL test (gas mileage was mentioned in the AMSOIL test, but not oil pressure, which was mentioned in the M1 test - reporting inconsistencies, I'd guess). Admittedly, they put more miles on the car during the M1 test than they did the AMSOIL test.
5) If they ever get around to testing a category 4 "synthetic", I'm sure the results will be eye-opening.

Finally:
I freely admit my own bias. I have been using AMSOIL products since 1983, and plan to continue to do so. I have used other brands from time to time, including M1 and Valvoline. On TGO, I try to be objective when the topic comes up, especially when it comes to misinformation and wive's tales about different synthetics and synthetics in general. I'm also more up-to-date about AMSOIL than the other products out there. But, I do want to be as objective as possible. Rest assured, if you use M1 or Redline or Castrol Syntec (as long as it's not the 5W-50), I don't consider you "trailer trash"...

...necessarily... .

safemode

iTrader: (1)

ok, your oil guy told you it was due to nitrification, and you're talking about the oil filter being the cause of the viscosity increase. The oil filter doesn't filter nitrogen, and it wont have any effect on chemical changes. That's heat and friction doing that.

Changing the filter wont recharge the oil, where as they mentioned that in the Mobil 1 test, adding a quart (as is done due to the testing ) actually noticably decreased nitrification in the Mobil 1 where as it had no real effect in the Amsoil test. It's mentioned somewhere in the first few tests for Amsoil how surprising it was that they didn't see the same type of decrease in nitrification as mobil 1 did. Ie, new dose of additives in the new oil didn't do as much as it did with mobil 1.



The test is still in early development, we wont see any final analysis or some really interesting comparisons until at least another brand is done. Then we can start to see if what they've been doing with amsoil or mobil 1 is unfair or not.

btw, I dont have a bias to any of the oil brands, I'm still in the process of trying different brands myself and seeing how they go. Of course, I'm not leaving my oil in for 12,000+ miles so in my short < 5000 mile runs, most of the oil brands act the same.

bulletboy29

What's wrong with Castrol Syntec? That's what I use in my Nissan Hardbody and was going to put in my Camaro next. Please let me know, I would hate to be using trailer trash oil in my trailer trash Camaro!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I didn't say the oil filter was the cause - I said not changing the filter reduced it's ability to maintain its properties.

Changing the filter not only renews the filtering capacity, it removes a portion of the old oil, which is replaced with fresh oil. Just adding oil doesn't do that. The Mobil 1 had the advantage of a filter change (1-1/2 quarts added at 12k miles, one quart of which is assumed to have been dumped out with the filter - a "partial oil change"). AMSOIL was penalized by their arbritrary insoluables filter change criteria.

So, yes, changing the filter will affect the oil's chemical characteristics, since it removes some contaminated/"spent" oil, and boosts ("recharges") the additive package for the mix.

BTW, friction was not called a contributor to nitrification.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.

However, it is a Category 4, "highly refined petroleum" lube. A synthetic only because a judge ruled in a lawsuit a few years ago that it didn't matter to him what people wanted to call their stuff, so now nobody else can legally, either.

Still better than the typical petroleum-based engine oil. 5W-50, however, has so much VI improver in it that it doesn't last any better than a good petroleum-based 5W-30.

One good thing I can say about Syntec is they spend their money to sponsor the ET series racing at Bandimere...

bulletboy29

I've never heard of AMSOIL. Is it available at most auto parts stores?

SSC

That was a good read, it will be interesting to see what happens when they get more results in for the second M1 test. I ran M1 for a year with the 305, probably shouldnt have since it had 78K with dino juice but oil pressure and fuel economy dident decrease but those arent really good indicators of how well the oil is holding up.

As far as the Castol synthetic oil, it is crap! We have a customer that has run it in his 4.0 engine ever since his vans engine was replaced. Ive seen the inside of the engine a few times and its comparable in gunk build up to Q-State, which is only (slightly) better then Penz.
My truck engine has seen M1 since 10K and now at 25K it still looks like its fresh from the machine shop on the inside even with the added heat of the turbos eating on the oil.

MrDude_1

i run mobile 1 for the simple reason that its the only full synthetic i can walk into almost any store and buy.

AMSOIL, Redline and Royal Purple are nice and from a realistic point of view, every engine is slightly diffrent.... you cant be uber accurate with the measurements because the slight diffs you see between them, just dont apply.



they're all full, real Synthetics..
they all protect great.

pick your fav and move on.

that goes double for street cars that cant see any performance diff using diffrent weight oils.. nevermind diffrent brands of the same weight.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

AMSOIL has been around since 1971. They attempted to sell on the parts store shelf, but who's going to buy a quart of $3.95 oil that's sitting beside $.59/quart oil? So, they went to "direct marketing" - i.e., dealers, to get the story out by word-of-mouth. Mobil saw what was going on, and since they were heavy into the jet engine oil market (which have been synthetic since the 40's), they formulated an automotive synthetic themselves.

AMSOIL is available in some stores, but the best way to find it is in the Yellow Pages under "Oil-Lubricating" or something of the sort. Or, go on-line to their website and request a dealer locate. You can also order directly on-line.

OMINOUS_87

LOL

Back to this age old flame fest topic again, nice link though.

No further comments.................................................................................................................................

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yes, I know. I hesitated to do it, but came down on the side of information.

I got the '57 in 1971 with 90k miles on it. It had ridges in the cylinders that required reaming to get the pistons out for the ring and bearing job. On the other hand, I picked up the donor Camaro with 123k miles, and pulled the heads at 141k (of course, I had synthetic in it for those 18k miles). I'm sure it had petroleum based oil in it for the first phase of its life, but there was no ridge in the cylinders when I opened it up, and I didn't do anything to the bottom end. People are getting a lot more miles out of cars these days as oil and filter technology has improved - an oil filter was an option in 1956 - although seal life is still an issue with petroleum based oils.

So, again, this is intended as passing on information, and each of you can do with it as you please.

Happy motoring.

Peace love dove...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Ever notice that discussing oil preference is kind of like discussing politics?

Or religion?

gearhead0384

iTrader: (7)

Since this whole topic of oil is coming up, what about oil filters? Are there any different ones out there that are superior to others in design or filter quallity or are they all basicly the same.

Kevin

350 TPI

iTrader: (2)

I am currently using mobile 1 15w-50.Is that too heavy for my car?I changed the oil and filter(mobile 1) @ 5000 miles.Should i change to a thinner oil?

OMINOUS_87

Heavens yes it is....................

Run 10-30, M1.

It sould free up a bit of power and fuel economy you are giving up to parasitic loss right now.

And I hope you aint runnin that 15-50 and driving around in the winter

gearhead0384

iTrader: (7)

He does like in Mississippi, so i bet the winters are pretty mild there.

Kevin

350 TPI

iTrader: (2)

Well if you want to call temps in the 60s and 70s winter.Anyway i will switch asap.Thanks.

Phoenix8936

Amsoil will soon be available in all or to all Napa Parts stores..

well look at M1 we at my store sell that for 4.99/quart..average for around here..we sell amsoil xl7500 for the same price..
we sell the other amsoil oil at close to 6 bucks..


and just a side note..synthetics are not all equal..there is a big difference in "fully" synthetic versus 100% synthetic..hence the different categories..

phess11

I disagree. this is a pic of my LG4 after 105K miles, and 20years, using Castrol and Castrol Syntec (after it was available).

I would recommend Castrol Syntec to anyone!!!

BTW, my engine uses less than a half quart in 5000 miles.

OMINOUS_87

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, my bad...................

I saw the Columbus, and figured Ohio, didnt read that you were a bit further down the river, lol.

But even still, that is alot more oil then what you should be running, even in the summer temps, go with the 10-30 all year and youll be all good.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

phess11, how often have you changed the Syntec? Have you had the pan off? Any wear measurements, such as bearings or bore?

(This isn't intended as a challenge, but for the purpose of data gathering.)

phess11

After Syntec was available i would use only 1 quart of Syntec and 4 quarts of regular castrol. I was on a budget.

Changed every 5000 miles.

Sorry, No measurements. Didn't want to tear something apart that was working well and showing no symtoms of wear.

phil

Tremo

Castrol Syntec is not a true synthetic. It's a hydrocracked Group 3 dino oil. The judge ruled in the lawsuit that they could call it "synthetic" regardless. Ditto for Pennzoil and most others.

OTOH, Mobil1, Redline and Royal Purple are all Group 4 true synthetics with Group 5 additives. I think Amsoil is Gp 4 as well.

If you wanna run a synthetic, spend the extra 25 cents a bottle and get *real* synthetic, and be sure to run a good filter, not a Fram. Good filters are K&N, Mobil1, Wix, Napa Gold, PurOne, AC Delco and Baldwin.

That LG4 engine in the photo looks well varnished. You might consider an AutoRx treatment to clean that crap out. And a 5k mile OCI on dino oil is kind of pushing it. I personally wouldn't run dino more than 3k miles. True Gp 4 synthetics can go 6k to 8k miles no sweat.

You can get M1 in the 5 quart jug at Wally's World for $20.

Probably the best synthetic blend oil is Mobil Drive Clean Plus. It's a Gp 3 base oil with Gp 4 PAO blended in. Excellent base stock plus real synthetic added.

Grim Reaper

Or best EFI intake
or MAF vs SD

Vader

Or the best filter - for coffee?

Laugh if you will, but that's more important. NOTHING happens until the coffee is ready - Nothing.

Those bargain-basement filters are little more than generic laboratory quality filter paper, either bound or pleated into the desired form. The Melitta filters have a lot higher synthetic fiber content, and the fiber tends to impart fewer impurities into the solution as compared to plain filter paper. They are far stronger, which is a great benefit in both maintaining integrity so all the bean is ezposed to an equal water flow, and is an absolute boon at clean up time.

Of course, that doesn't even begin to address the advantage of using R.O. water instead of tap water or bottled water, since either of the latter can contain dissolved elements that can affect the flavor and reduce the solvent properties of the water. More pure water alows for maximum flavor extraction from the beans.

And you thought something as simple as lubrication was confusing. It's taken me years to get the brewing process just right. And I'll be most of you just take it for granted.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm even worse than that - I don't drink coffee...

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

Redline is starting to be sold at the local Autozones around here now. Ran into it at a few and asked the guys about it. End up a lot of people were requesting it so they added it to their lineup. Gear lube, motor oil, etc.

I have been using M1, but may try a change of redline to see how it runs.

OMINOUS_87

Tea anyone?

2.73's Suck

Dont forget auto vs manual.

Tremo

We use one of those gold colored metal mesh reusable filters in the coffee maker. Works fine, never breaks, and you never run out of filters! We just run it through the dishwasher a couple-three times a week.

We also drink tea on occasion!

Vader

Not to argue, but at 110K, my LT1 had no visible or measurable wear, was cleaner than that in most areas, and used absolutely no oil between changes. I lost more oil by wiping the dipstick during checking than through leakage or consumption.

That was all on true synthetic, not hydro-cracked mineral oil "synthetic". FWIW, the WORST bore had 4 tenths taper and OOR. That's 0.0004", which is within the factory production tolerances, and not even close to the minimum threshold of allowable wear tolerances. For all I know, the engine may have been machined that way from the factory. And yes, I used NIST traceable and certified/calibrated instruments, and even had another person check my measurements because I didn't believe them at first. I was so skeptical that I used a bore guage, telescope and micrometer, and an inside micometer. I had exahusted my supply of tools trying to find the wear that I just knew had to be there.

All that says to me is that there is virtually no harmful friction in the engine, and therefore, maximum power output due to the nearly complete lack of parasitic losses due to friction.

That's the difference between a polyalpholefin base lubricant and highly refined mineral oil base.

SSC

Actually that’s about what the top of this customers engine looked like with similar miles when I changed the VC gaskets last year felpro rubber junk. This customer’s oil pump actually went bad and I had to pull the pan off. When I did replace the oil pump there was carbon chunks in the oil pan and plugging the screen which is what killed the oil pump. Now I know carbon build up is normal in conventional oil engines but its not supposed to be in synthetic oil engines. I will give CS some credit, the engine still runs fine and oil pressure is normal again with the new pump.

I convinced my brother who has a 90 mile commute 6 days a week in a little 4 banger ranger to switch to M1 at 60K; we replaced his VC gasket 2 weeks ago along with a cam seal which has been dripping ever since the truck was new. There was absolutely build up at all on the valve train even with 160K and my brother does maintenance by his own terms, every six months.

phess11

If you people would read my post, I was not challenging the pure synthetics. I was only defending Castrol based on my own personal experience. I never said that Castrol Syntec was better than pure synthetics like AMSoil, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, etc. only that I would recommend Castrol and Castrol Syntec to anyone. Which I would. You oil zealots should dial it down a notch or two. You would think based on the discussion that if someone put dino oil in there car they may as well add a cup of sand. I think that eveybody should just take a breath.

OMINOUS_87

Now that was classic...........

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I second that. Way too much valuable bandwidth taken up on this topic. Horse died a few years ago on this one.