jrg77

1. If your car has a 305 and requires more than basic maintenance get a 350 and do the work on it. The difference in cost is at most $300 and the improvement in performance is WAY bigger than the cost of admission.

2. If your car has a T-5 transmission and it requires more than basic maintenance or you've done #1, get a T-56 and crossmember. You can still use your driveshaft.

3. If you have a carb'ed engine and want to go EFI don't go getting a '165 computer and run MAF. Get the '730 and run speed density. If you plan on using a turbo use the '749.

4. Don't use Clevite bearings. Use Federal Mogul (Speed-Pro)

5. Get the Melling HV55 oil pump.

6. If you use drag slicks, speed shift or have more than 400 hp going to your rear don't spend money on your 10-bolt. Spend the money on a 12-bolt for a Ford 9".

7. The following items can be reused up to the 500 hp range.
Cast crank
Stock rods

8. Unless you have some '416 or '081 heads on which you plan to do your own port work don't reuse the stock heads. Get some Vortec heads from GM. They flow better and cost about as much as rebuilding your heads ($500).

9. If your engine is pre-'87 and your want to go roller hydraulic cam expect to spend $800 over the cost of a new cam. Blame the new lifters and rods.

10. New valve covers look pretty, but may not have the hole so you can put oil in your engine. Make sure you have a way to do that when buying them.

11. Unless the car is used on the track 80% of the time or more your car is best served with torque than horsepower. Around here talk of 6000rpm or more gets folks wondering why you want to do that. Stick to the 5500 rpm scenario and you won't get a lot of guff.

12. Don't go buying performance chips from somebody who is further than 100' from your car, and isn't tuning it in the car or at the dyno shop. They don't know your car or what you want and will take your money for a lot of trial and error. You can do as well with the DIY forum and a $300 investment in Craig Moates.

13. Unless your engine requires more than basic maintenance you will experience more performance from your car by working on chassis (sub-frame connectors) and suspension (rear lower control arms, anti-roll bars, springs, shocks/struts) than anything else.

14. If you are going to take the engine out get some headers and put them on while you are putting the engine back in the car. The general consenus is that Hooker 2055s are the best for emissions compatible exhaust systems.

15. True Dual Exhaust is doable, but expensive. It is preferrable that the pipes go over the rear end. The challenge is when you are trying to run cats. Dual cats may intefere with the sub-frame connector on the passenger side. It will cost even more to get them not to scrape the ground, especially if your car is lowered.

16. Long tube exhaust don't allow for emissions compliance. They also are threatened by low ground clearance. If the car is rarel on the street, or your area ahs very few potholes, dips, or otherwise non-level roads have at it.

17. A big block is a great swap if your are willing to make the adjustments to the chassis and cooling system. It will weight anywhere from 60 to 100 lb. more so springs will be an issue. Header clearance is also a factor.

18. The hot swap du jour is an LS1 into your 3rd gen. Ideally you would get the engine and trans together along with the appropriate electronics. For those of your concerned about the aluminum block the truck engines come with cast iron blocks. The LQ9 (my personal afvorite) has 6.0L and performance heads right from the start. It cost about as much as a performance Gen I buildup to do this swap, but should generate similar performance, cleaner emissions, and better gas mileage.

This is what I think I know. If I got it wrong please don't shoot me. If anybody else knows some things that there is general consensus on please fill free to add. Had there been something like this post when I started it would have cut my questions down to about a tenth.

Jason

Apeiron

Don't get the M55HV, get the standard volume, standard pressure M55.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Most of those listed are not lessons, but rather opinions......some debatable.

I can find factual evidence both for and against a few of those. Not bashing, just observing.

jrg77

I concede that they are opinions, but man try saying something contrary to the statements above around here. You might get run the frick over.

My goal was to give some guidance to the person who bought the car on assumptions of what's possible and then found this site (like me).

Knowing what I know now I probably would have waited gotten a later model stickshift V-8 hardtop. What I have will suffice, but I would be a bit farther down the road in my develpoment by now. Hopfully the person that buys one and says, "Now what?" will have something to work with.

If something is too controversial or absolutely wrong please fill free to correct it. Maybe it can become an Important/Useful if it gets done right...

Jason

Streetiron85

About #10 - valve covers.
I think they intend for the user to put an oil fill hole in there. You get a 1-1/4" hole saw and cut a hole in the right place and then get a grommet and a push in oil cap.
The reason for that might be because different cars have different oil cap / PCV / breather locations. It's obvious that the PCV and breather go on opposite sides so they're safe putting one of those in each cover. But if they started making them with an oil fill then they'd have to make different ones for different models, in addition to custom ones that work for unique applications.
Many of the cast aftermarket covers have a thicker area designed to be drilled for that purpose. Maybe yours don't but I've seen a few that have.

jrg77

I've never bought any so I don't know from experience, only from what I saw on here. The end of that post did not lead to the notion that one cuts a hole in the cover. I suppose one woud have to do the same for the PCV valce if so equipped.

Jason

AutoX86Z28

why not clevite bearings?

8Mike9

Hmmn...I'll post below some of your post...

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

I like hte comment about the LS1, but it is expensive. If the price were remotely close between an LS1 and rebuilding a 350...I'd have to take the LS1. Weight savings with an aluminum block, more efficient (better gas mileage), and a broader power range. Then again, the broader power range can be debated upon based on engine components. LS1 heads are amazing though. Put a 220/220 cam in an LS1 with long tubes and you have a mid-12sec car easily assuming traction..

Also as for the T-56 swap, I'd have to agree. A bare T-56 can be had for close to a grand or less. I saw an entire conversion package (to go from auto to manual) for $1400, minus flywheel.

jrg77

7 out of 16 ... guess I'm still a newb.

Ah well it was worth a shot.

2. It doesn't make sense to spend money to rebuild a T-5 if it is going to break again because it is too weak for the power output.

3. If you already have MAF then you are absolutely correct, but if you have neither then you will have a whole lot more support if you go SD.

4. Haven't done either yet, and I bet it probably depends on assembly, environment, and use more than anything else.

6. He may have had a T-5, but from what I from what I've read I doubt he had a 10-bolt also.

7. Stock means reconditoning the ones that came with the 350 provided that they are straight, round and even in the appropriate places.

8. Vortecs are supposedly good even at their as cast lift. The intake would not cost more or less if it wasn't specific to the Vortec, and mostof the time that's changed too.

10. All the aftermarket VCs I've seen don't have a fill hole. An above post indicates that you cut your own.

11. If you try match components for 6000+ rpm and driving on the street folks will argue with you ad nauseam and not help you. This is from experience.

13. How you set it up depends on the venue. The factthat you do set it up was my intended statement.

14. I haven't done it yet, but there were more "me too"s for the 2055s than anything else.

15. Tossed out on deference...

16. At minimum emissions compliance require cats in the stock location, even if they don't look for them, to hit the numbers. It can get hairier than that agreed.

17. If the person is doing a swap this fits. If not then the normal 350 applies. Even then there is less chance of knowing going in that the tune will pass emissions or have good gas mileage. At least I haven't found anyone to talk CO CO2 and NOx goals up front while talking power combos.

Jason

8Mike9

#2 and # 6 go together, i just recalled hi9s name...Tim Burgess, yes, he had a 10 bolt as well....but regradless, tranny and rear (9inch, 12bolt, etc( make no regards to the strength of the tranny.

FWIW, abuse wil kill a tranny and rear much faster than HP and Tq, withion reason ofcourse...i/e I could destroy a T56 with a 300hp/300tq motor, just depends on how I abuse it.

# 3 agreed, go SD if you're converting...my mistake for not reading the entire line.

#4 will depend on your experience, as mentioned, I've never had issues with Clevite bearings...in fact never heard of anyone who has...can you post a link to whwre you gathered the info??

#7, no point of reconditioning things anyways, since cost will be very close to buying overseas aftermarket...but regardless, 500HP is way too much to push stock bolts, IMO...the rods and crank may withstand it with quality fastenersw (ARP, etc)

#8, carb intake for Vortec is about 50- bucks more than convential intake, TPI more, and no real bang for the buck, but in order to make HP, yopu have to spin the motor...the higher RPMs require larger cams...IIRC, Vortecs will only let you get by with about .480 lift....not much (in the HP game) regarding HP at that lift.

#10...interesting...never looked at it too much, you may be correct...but I've never noticed anything about having to make your own holes in VC's for you application...could be that for cost reason manufactureeres are offering them that way for those who have the means?

#11...you just have to ask the correct crowd...could be you're in the stock Vortec head/60000+ rapm crowd? Could be they are telling you like it is...i/e you have to go higher lift, work the heads, etc, to get what you want. Not sure, just basing my opininion on what I can gather in the posts above.

#13. Agreed.

#14 Still can't agree

#15 We agree to not be sure

#16...No, some places just require a sniffer and never pop the hood or look under the car, others will do full functional test,, require all EDO stickers in place, etc...so really depends on where you're at.....just have to know you're rules for your stae/county...

#17.. Build BBC the samew as a SBC, make it as efficient as possible and will eliminate issues with smog compliance...assuming they don't popo the hood...i/e you could build a 400HP BBC (say 454/502) which would be much more efficient than a 400 HP SBC (say 350/383).

As long as your state did not require you pop the hood for emissions testing, a BBC wuld be way more efficient and powerful than a SBC


Heck...

We've now pared a few things down, pretty soon we'll be able to debate just a few opics...Hope someone else chimes in soon too...gotta be the "Sunday drag"....gotta go mysef and see if the Bosox are still ahead.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Didn't I say........ "Debatable"?

To each his own, but here's my penny:

#1 - I rebuilt my 305, and I didn't regret it one bit. I wasn't too sceered of stock 350's with it in. But the HO portion helped because it's pretty quick stock. I'd feel different if I had a LG4 or TBI.

#2 You can get a kit for a T-5 that claims to hold 500 ftlbs TQ and 600 HP. I did, and I didn't have to worry about adapting ANYTHING.

#3 I have a carb. - no comment

#4 First I've heard of Clevites being bad.

#5 Yeah, get an oil pump....runs much better than not having one at all.

#6 Don't know, my 10 bolt is still in one piece - but it's a one-legger. And it's a POS.

#7 Pass

#8 I've heard alot of good and bad about Vortec heads. I know they flow better than stock L98 heads.

As far as the rest goes, Yep, you can build a 400 sbc to beat stock LS1's, and 350's and even 305's (with a huffer) can be built to beat LS1's, but you won't pass emissions, and it'll eat gas. And it'll be loud and obnoxious...ask me how I know. lol

LS1 will bring you up to 24 plus mpg highway, and 320 hp stock. And has better street manners. And weighs less. Cost more to mod, but still maintains streetable manners. Depends on what you're looking for.

I will now allow this post to fester......

400Z28Racer

iTrader: (4)

Clevites is recommended by alot of big racers like John Lingenfelter

sellmanb

I dont know if I can agree on the Clevite bearings, having had no experience with them before... but I posted a topic here a while ago asking which bearings I should go with, and some said Clevite, and then a bunch of people (including Ede and Stekman I believe) jumped in saying that Clevite just had a quality control issue, and their customer service is crappy. Take that how you want though, there are tons of people running around with Clevite bearings not even worrying about it, and then there's a ton of people with Federal Mogul bearings doing the same... just take whoever yah want I guess.

As for the oil pump, the typical "no fail" combination is

Melling M-55 Oil Pump
Melling M-55A High Volume Pickup
Melling 55-SA Driveshaft (lightweight, metal collared)
Mr. Gasket #26 pressure spring.

Of course this doesnt apply to EVERYONE, but it applys to most of us on this board (running NA)

VILeninDM

#11) I am newb myself, but I am curious what you guys said about hp/tq. If I was to build an engine (high likelyhood), I'd be looking for higher end torque.

How much hp does a typical car need while cruising at 70mph (@ ~2000 rpm). On the other hand having readline around 6,500 (peak hp, not tq) would give you better times. Am I making any sense on any of this.

I asked similar questions before, but didn't really get any answers while looking at ZZ4. It was 355 hp engine that had peak torque at 3,500 rpm. That seemed kinda low, but when I asked for the reasons, all I got was "I wouldn't mess with ZZ4 too much"

Can someone comment on this? Thanks

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Do you mean this?

Here's a decent description I found about HP vs. TQ. I think others have looked at this too. Hope this helps:

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

VILeninDM

lol... I was just looking at that webpage 2-3 weeks ago. Thanks, Confuzed1

Let's make my question a little more direct to the example. ZZ4 has 405 TQ @ 3,500 and 355 HP @ 5,200. I know there is a direct formula between TQ and HP and it says that the higher in RPM you go, the more HP you have the potential of delivering while keeping the same TQ. This is how NASCAR and japanese do it with 9000 rpm engines.

So if we take that ZZ4, is it possible to shift torque so it is something like 405 @ ~5,000? If that's the case wouldn't you get close to 400 HP @ ~6,000 out of the same engine?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I'll just take a WAG at this one, but I think the type of induction/cam and head combo required to raise usable torque up that high in the rpm range, would make it a less streetable and more track- only oriented.

Most engines I've seen, including the engine I'm running now- max torque is 490 at 3400 RPM's, and max hp occurs at around 4500 rpm's. But I've always believed good torque at low rpms works well on a street driven car because I don't cruise around at 5000 rpms normally. That's just my take on it though.

I'd have a different approach for a strip only car all together.

VILeninDM

True, I guess what I don't know yet is what happens when you shift the peak tq that far. How much power do you have left around 1250-1500 rpm, but at the same time how much power do you really need when you are going down the highway at almost constant speed? The only time when it would be nice to feel some tq is if you decide to pass someone, but then you can always down shift.

I am still trying to adjust to the numbers after driving an integra (my daily pos). That car doesn't do much unless your are at 2,500 rpm. I know 350's are quite comfortable even as low as 1000.

jrg77

VILeninDM,

I understand exactly how you feel as I had a '91 GSR. I didn't really bother me much because I just adjusted to the power range. IMO as long as your TQ and HP start in a Camaro where the Integra's end I don't see where there is a problem.

The goal in my opinion is to be around 2500rpm at 55mph and nail the throttle and get shoved into the back on the seat. Now whether the peak is 1500rpm or 4500rpm later you are gonna be haulin like crazy. You just have to adjustthe gear gear ratio so it works for you.

That is why I said around here they tend to steer you away from combos that let you go higher than 5500rpm. They start asking why. And then when your start mentioning the power curve on some foreign 4-banger you get told you have the wrong thing in mind.

Jason

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I may not fully grasp exactly what it is you're trying to say, but the reason you want to stay away from higher reving engines on the street is because of driveability.

"typically" moving more air (performance parts) happens at higher RPMs. What you need to do is to decide where that line is. The SIZE of the power curve, and the location.

I just installed a ZZ4 cam and headers/catback on my L98. I lost some low end, and gained some high end, no doubt at all. How that translated into everyday was it's a little harder (still very easy) to pass WITHOUT downshifting. If I downshift, forget it, its so easy it's a joke. Now if I line up and romp on it, and get it up around 5000-5500, she flies.

....and I still have 2.77 gears, although not for too long. The point is it's almost impossible to have a V8 and rev it real high and keep the torue real low. They're products of each other, and relate accordingly.

I'm sure you could build a motor to rev to 7500 RPM, and put a 4800 stall TC in it, and gear the **** out of it. It may have "fair" street manner, but why would you do that? It seems like the guy has been taken outta the import, but the import hasn't been taken outta the guy. hehe,.....just kidding. I'm just trying to understand the logic.

jrg77

You are correct I like both, and want both. All I really want is like I said above. 55mph in 4th or 5th and nail it and GONE.

An example is this. Try keeping up with a BMW at a roll from highway speeds (or higher). They'll straight leave you. And around town they are no slouch either.

I'm not interested in drag racing. I'm not into street racing. I like the coming out of a turn and acclerating quickly. That requires midrag=nge and upper end power. By the shear increase in displacement I should have more power Everywhere than a smaller CID engine. And if I pick the parts that allow me to rev higher I should not be in a deficit anywhere - drag or curves.

Around the city getting off the line is no big deal. I don't think I need 300 lb-ft at 1800rpm. I know what my Spec-V is like at 170 lb-ft and that's cool. If I can end up with 200 or 250 at 1800 and have power up into the 6000s I'm willing to make the trade.

That is why I went with a 400 block. If I start with more CID then my trade off is reduced somewhat and I still get the high end.

Even if I had a 305 (5.0L) and could get it to match the power curve of my 2.5L 4-banger with double the numbers through the same range I would be ecstatic. But you start talking like that and folks start scratching their heads because the thought process is different from what they are used to thinking.

With a longer powerband the more time you have on the power and the less time you have shifting gears. In a non-stock SBC it seems like it should be doable to make more than stock numbers in the low end and have the curve shoot upward at a higher slope to a higher rpm. It might take a rethink on the parts selection, but it shouldn't be impossisble or improbable.

Jason

Morley

I would totally disagree with this one. you can build any engine to pass emissions and make gobs of power.
I wish I could remember the issue this came from...
Each year CarCraft has (or had) a "Real street eliminator" where people would apply for entry and CC would pick from them 5 contestants.
In the year I remember there was a guy from Calif that won all but 1 event in an 88 or 89 T/A. He did most of the work himself on the car. In the first event, 1/4 mile he was in he high 11's, 2nd event; slalom 1st place, 3rd event; show & shine, 2nd place, and the final event was the ride and drive where he got a whopping 35mpg. This car had a full interior and power everything and ran a 350cid SBC with....TPI AND passed calif's strict emissions.

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

Same way I look at things. "You'll lose too much power by going with the LT1 intake on a 305". Well I'm sure the headers will make up enough power to keep my bottom end very similar feeling. I don't care about more torque down low. The feeling this car has is enough for me. Sure it'd be fun to have more torque to feel a bit more but.. I'll take a loss of low-end torque for higher-end power, and the headers, higher stall TC, and gears will still make the car feel faster in the low-end.

My car is going to be a highway demon with the 2.73s or even a change to 3.23s. I'll probably go to 3.73s or maybe 3.42s though for more local driving power.

VILeninDM

Abubaca, I think jrg is getting at the same thing I was. You said it yourself:
"WITHOUT" being the keyword. While cruising 55-75 I agree you need to be able to accelerate, but if you need more power, what's wrong with downshifting? The way I see it, if you are driving on the street and you have all that reserve power for those "must punch but not shift" occasions, that's all the power that under normal circumstances gets wasted. Now what if we shift the tq curve higher a little. Your car will get more hp which is always good and you will have less power at lower rpm, but that's the power you typically don't use anyway.

To put things a little in perspective. I am trying to decide what to get for my engine. My car will be T56 with 4.10 gears (that should help acceleration at low rpm a bit). I want to get something that is streetable (in a sense of mpg, not shifting if you have to) and at the same time will kick a$$ at the race track. Not really interested in drag strips.

jrg77

Sometimes you don't want to announce that you are passing. Sometimes it is just being lazy not to shift. Either way it is more useful there than much higher in the range as I don't drive up there very often.

Most times racing and fuel efficiency don't speak the same language.

Jason

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Or get another T5 and save the grand for other things. T5's are fine, as long as they're not left with 16 year old drivers.

I don't agree with this.

Match the pump to the clearances. A HV pump is desireable for any hopped up engine with non-std clearances. That is of course, unless you dont want oil getting to the rods.

[qupte]
6. If you use drag slicks, speed shift or have more than 400 hp going to your rear don't spend money on your 10-bolt. Spend the money on a 12-bolt for a Ford 9".
[/quote]

Dissagree.

True, but with ARP hardware. And be careful not to use the "thin" L98 rods. "PM", "pink", or "X" rods.

That makes no sense to me at all. Especially with new vtec cars, and mustangs with powebands past 6k. This isn't 1972. I don't see a problem with a street motor reving til 6-6200. Track only car 7000.

-- Joe

jrg77

The nice thing about trying to review what I learned is that some of the stuff gets holes shot through it. Some of the stuff gets shot at but why is not explained.

My perspective in the "lessons" I learned was trying to make my car more fun/faster/quicker.

The T-5 vs. T-56 issue is one of durability of the trans (16 year olds included). The thought is the T-56 can be abused more or withstand more power, so it is a wise investment if one is going for more than stock performance and learning how to play with that performance.

The Federal-Mogul bearings were said to be of better quality. Contrary to that allegedly Lingenfelter reccomends Clevite. Some more investigation is definitely needed on this subject. For what its worth I've seen more engine kits with Clevite than anything else. I have no experience with either and thus do not have a opinion. I was merely stating what I thought was the consensus of the board. Perhaps a new thread should be started to flesh this out.

I did not know about the clearance issue. At the same time if one rebuilds an engine it won't have standard clearances, will it? I could use some more help on this one.

The 12-bolt or 9-inch I thought was cast in stone. The explanation was/is that like the T-5 the rear was too weak. It apparently does not have enough thickness to the teeth(?) and is thus fragile in high jerk or load movements.

I forgot to mention the ARP bolts. That should have been a separate "lesson" anyway.

I'll stand by this one for the very reason I said it. When you start talking about stuff above 6000 rpm folks around here get in a huff and argue ferociously that you "DO NOT NEED IT". Mention any foreign or small displacement car and you get dismissed completely. My personal opinion is with the better metallurgy and product design that it should only be a function of getting the right combination of parts together to assemble an engine that has 350 ft-lb from 2500 and does not have any less before 7000 rpm. That is a pretty solid range for any street driven car, and if you can crank that out I am sure somewhere in there you're gonna be going awful fast.

Jason

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The additional weight is my problem, and cost. I won't argue a T56 isn't stronger, but I'll argue that a T5 won't just blow up like many fools think.

Most everyone I talk to, and in any performance book I read, the clevites are prefered. If you want a hard bearing, the "H" series should do it.

This is something that some folks debate. A lot of guys when they build a performance engine they run slightly loose clearances in reference to main journal and rod journals. Even the B.E width of most performance rods is narrower than stock. (.940 vs .947). When running looser clearances, you'll want a high volume pump.

It has been scientifically proven, that 25% of the oil pressure found in the MAINS is in the RODS. So you want a high volume pump on applications with looser clearance, to ensure you get the volume up to the rods to maintain the same pressure.

Some folks (myself included) feal a 9" or 12bolt has an additional 5% drivetrain loss than a 10 bolt. I think a 10 bolt can be build to hold up just fine. There is a TON of 4th gens running 11s on 10 bolts. And I was damn near close before I broke a ring land.

I don't care what your neighbors think. They need to get educated. With all parts being the same, and just a camshaft change in duration, when you move up the powerband you always gain HP and TORQUE

A Camshaft with 230-236 degrees of duration at .050" is completly streetable, and more desireable than something that is dead at 5500.

BTW: my new setup should be around 500foot lbs by 2500, and max torque of around 550foot lbs at 4500ish.

-- Joe

VILeninDM

anesthes, I completely agree with you on reving the engine a little higher. My latest plan is to find a decent short block and select my own cam/heads/intake to rev to somewhere between 6-6.5k.

About the rear through, people are kinda right. Check out this page. I am still keeping my 10-bolt (and doing most of what that page suggested) since my 350 will not be boosted, but they guy talked to Richmond engineers and Steve Spohn and everyone said that no matter what you do, 400hp will be pushing the limit of a 10-bolt.

The problem with 10-bolts is the case itself. Under high load, pinion gear will start walking up the ring gear causing the whole differential case to flex. When this happens gears will get out of alignment and start griding each other way more, thus reducing their own life. Gears are not the problem, but they are the ones that eventually break.