I think that I've had a revelation, I only wish I'd known before I had bought my Formula. After driving my car for almost a year, and attempting to make it as powerful as possible, I think I've had a major change of heart. My original goal, when I bought the car, was to race it and obtain low 13 second timeslips in order to compete with the new Firebirds and Mustangs. This will never happen. Even if I were to hit my goal of 350hp, I would be broke, for a long damn time. And I'd still have a car that looks like everyone elses. Also, it isnt even worth it to street race in the Formula. Its a joke. Sure, the TPI produces torque, but what good is torque if you cant plant it. It just sits on the line while I get dusted. I know what your going to say; traction bars, slicks, SFCs. All Ive got to say is...broken rear, broken tranny, broken suspension. All this means is more cash and more time. Also, it simply isnt fast. I could just as easily build a powerhouse 355 and drop it in my 83. Christ, for what a TPI intake costs, I could feed a Ethiopian family an all you can eat buffet. So, on to the point. Im now looking for a different platform to build a street performer. What do you guys suggest? Late 70s Corvette? Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
------------------
'83 Firebird 2.8
'89 Firebird Formula 350
Red/grey, t-tops, and a 3.27:1 rear
K&N, TB bypass, no MAF screens, CAI, full Accel ignition, no cats, Hooker Supercomp shorties, Hooker 3-inch catback
No real ET yet...

[This message has been edited by RoadRocket L98 (edited May 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by RoadRocket L98 (edited May 02, 2001).]

 

Okay Ive got a revelation For you Dude.


Any car Will be the Same way.

You want a cheap Performer, and your Thinking Vettes, Forget it!

Just the Word Corvette drives something Up in price.


Think You cant break rears In other cars? Think other car's trannys Wont Give up just as easily ?

Building a 13 second Car out of a L98 is Not hard, Not even Close to Hard. Hell, Im Headers and Gears away from a 13 second LG4, and Ill be right about 1500$ In performance Mods, when thats Done.


Getting One to perform With new, stock, Camaros Is a little harder, but By no means impossible, and Not particuarly expensive either.


AlSo, If you cant Plant it, Try lifting your foot, Amazing what that Does.


my LG4 car is fast, And I have 700 Bucks In the Motor. I havent broken any Rears, transmission, Or Suspension components, and I hook up pretty good If I launch Smartly, No posi either.

But hey, If you Don't love your car For what it is, and Inturn Love it for what it isnt, Then your in the wrong place.

But Don't think All Your problems are going to Be Solved By Going To another Platform, You will Solve some, and Open Up worlds of others.

Here, Ill trade you a 78 Corvette for Your Formula

Don;t even think Vettes If you want cheap, jesus...


Might as well buy a Jaguar

------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

what bort said, he's learned alot since he's been hanging around thirdgen.org.

------------------
ICON Motorsports

1st & 3rd
MM Black Diamond 538 F&AM

 

Rocket,

Bort has some good points, as usual. The 'Y" bodies are even heavier than the 'F' bodies, and have acquired some notoriety for weak axles. The 'F' cars are reasonably priced, and a decent platform for a good all-around car. The handling is acceptable and the platform can support a lot of power with a few enhancements.

However, if you want something really, cheap, fast, and different, consider an 'S' truck with a mild 355. They'll also break rear ends, twist frame rails, wheel hop like a kangaroo, and sit at the line and smoke. If you want to get into the low end of double-digit times, you'll need traction on whatever you build. I had a '50 pickup that cranked 425 HP from the 355 and wouldn't do squat for times, mostly because the posi would lock after a couple of milliseconds and smoke the tires instead of bite, coupled with the fact that I couldn't manipulate the Super T-10 gearing worth a damn. If I had traction at the start, it could have easily been a 13-second truck, but all that power was too much. the same can happen to you, regardles of the platform. If you want something that looks different, so be it. But don't discount the 'F' body because it is a popular style. There are many good reasons for that popularity, and sub-10 second runs are just one of them.



------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"What a Day..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader



[This message has been edited by Vader (edited May 16, 2001).]

 

Sounds like what you want is a car (read:shell) with a blown/missing engine and/or tranny. Buy it cheap, put a good trans, rear and of course engine in it, and a decent suspension. Then you shouldnt break anything, or have to worry about it too much. I do know once you start getting in that area, stuff does break just because. Be aware of that and ready for when it does happen.

And I dont know what you need a low 13 timeslip for to beat new Mustangs...

 

There is a '74 Corvette with a blown engine in the local classifieds for $5500. It has new sidepipes and centerlines, but it needs paint. Not really too expensive, though.

You've got a deal!

70s Corvettes have third member flanked by halfshafts to each spindle, correct? I've never heard that they were weak, thanks for the warning dude.

------------------
'83 Firebird 2.8
'89 Firebird Formula 350
Red/grey, t-tops, and a 3.27:1 rear
K&N, TB bypass, no MAF screens, CAI, full Accel ignition, no cats, Hooker Supercomp shorties, Hooker 3-inch catback
No real ET yet...

 

I wish you told me that before I bought mine dammit!!


Now, now, it all depends on the 'Vette in question. And the C3s had some serious problems with the axle bearings (let me tell you first hand - THEY SUCKED!)

Well not if they are in stock trim. But how many truly are?


RR - Traction is action baby, I could give you a twin turbo charged 454 that cranks over 1,000 HP and if you can't hook, you'll just sit on the line and get smoked all day long. Address your traction problem above all else.

------------------
"To provoke dreams of terror in the slumber of prosperity has become the moral duty of literature"

-Ernst Fischer

 

If you ask me you already have about the perfect platform for a buildup w/ your 89 Formy... You should already be getting some high 13s/14.0s w/ that setup if it's running right, you have much room for improvement. Stay off slicks and your rear will hold up just fine, the tranny will probably need some attention but that is to be expected w/ just about any stock semi-modern auto tranny.

If your TPI engine ain't cutting it ditch everything and go another route, you can put virtually anything in it's place...

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited May 02, 2001).]

 

SMACK! I know a guy with a 305TPI who can hang with LT1's. Save your money, start with the easy mods. I work 20 hours a week at a freaking bowling alley, and I can manage to work on my car. Patience is a virtue...

------------------
1983 Firebird
TH700R4 Auto
Small Block 400
LG4 ECM, Intake, Carb, Distributor, etc.
Soon to be non-computer.
Clarion Head Unit 45X4
2 Pioneer 400W 12" Subs
Third Gen Performance
"A four cylinder is half an engine."

[This message has been edited by Ward (edited May 03, 2001).]

 

yeah i couldn't agree more. although i hate all vettes accept the 68-82 body style. i have often thought of doing this, but not as a fix for my camaro. lets say you get a 78. the motors were smogger 350s and couldn't get out of thier own way. i think they had TH350 automatics or super T-10 4 speed manual trannies. now the super T-10 will hold up, but do you think a stock TH350 will take 400 horse? i don't. also the rearends in these cars suck, they are weak and poorly designed. i think some guys swap older rears in don't they? either way you are gonna spend a chunk of change on the rear end, tranny, and motor, just like you would a camaro. now lets talk about the interior, the exterior. any corvette part is gonna be outrageously expensive, from interior parts, to body parts and such. face it, more stuff breaks on these cars other than the drive train. to sum all this up, no matter what car you buy you are gonna have a small fortune in the drive train to support the power you want. corvette specific parts are very expensive, camaro ones are not. the only other chassis i can think of that would be a great starting point for a fast car for cheap would be a G-body car(monte carlo, regal, cutlass, grand prix) these are sweet cars, but no better or cheaper than F-body cars are.

------------------
86 IROCZ
T-Tops
700R4
305 TPI
3.23 gears
shift kit, manual TC switch, manual fan switch, flowmaster exhaust with edelbrock TES headers& hollow cat, gutted MAF.

 

btt

 

I have the answer all of you are looking for!
Bottom line of my Sig.


------------------
89 GTA G92
305 TPI WC 5spd w/3.45
Accel Cap & 8mm Taylor's
Custom 4" Cold Air Induction
Jet Airfoil
K&N Airfilter
160 deg stat/fan switch TB Bypass - Steel Rad
Cat back 3" Exhaust w/Terminator Muff.
HiGh FlOw Dynomax Cat
Spohn LCA's - KYB GR-2's
Moroso Crank Bolt and roller pilot bearing.
New Fuel Pump!
Autometer Vac+Oil Temp
2000 Yamaha R1 150hp 385ibs

 

Quoted "There is a '74 Corvette with a blown engine in the local classifieds for $5500. It has new sidepipes and centerlines, but it needs paint. Not really too expensive, though."

I don't know if you were planning on selling your formula, but if you were'nt.. $5500 bucks will certainly get you in the 13's.
I bought my car new in '92 and often times thought about selling it for finacial reasons and even considered a vette but after thinking about all the money, and money, did I mention the money? and hours and hours and hours on this car I couldn't do it.
That's all I got.

------------------
92 RS, 350, Street & Performance MPFI, TFS heads,
Crane Rollers,
MSD Digital 6 Plus, 22lb injectors,
ZZ3 cam, Edelbrock Headers 1 5/8, 3" Exhaust,
Hi Flow 3" Cat, stock T-5,
stock rear 3.08, koni yellow adjustable front, twin turbo glass hood, T-tops, Auto Meter Ultra Lite Series 2 5/8 gauges, Teal Green

 

A vett would be nice but only as a chick magnet.
Cn you say "327"? That would solve alot of your problems.
SSC

 

For they guy who posted yamaha, no way, Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12 runs 9.90 stock in the 1/4 mi!
hehe


------------------
Corry Lazarowitz
clazarow@voicenet.com
clazarowitz@hotmail.com
1987 Pontiac Trans AM (GTA?) 350 or is it a 305?! TPI
SLP 1 3/4" headers, 3" cat back (stock cat
MSD ignition.
MSD Blaster SS coil.
3.73 Rear end gears
Accell 8.8 Wires
Bosh +4 Spark Plugs (Don't know if they really help but hell!)
Holley AFPR
Race Built Automatic trans ('vette servo, shift kit, tightly packed clutches)--just needs titanium gears now!
Newly gutted cat (the car gutted it's own cat!)
Hypertech Chip (Just found out I had it! :eek
More soon when funds are avail...

 

hahaha, Bikes just arent Fair! 70-73ish CB 650 Is what I want.... Ooooo


My buddie Bought a 78 Silver aniversary Corvette, For 5 Grand, with a blown (as in grenaded, not Huffed) L48.


We swapped it out and put a warmed up 305 w/ performer Package With stock heads In it, Just To get it Running.

That Motor Tore the stock Th350 apart, and started breaking Everything else. And were talking a POS rigged 305, The first motor I ever worked on, if that gives you any idea )

He has since spent almost another 5 grand on that car, and its sitting under a car cover with primer spots, chunkd trans, and a warmed over 305 with almost 200,000 On it.

I know all about the vette saga...

That Car is a Helluva Chick Magnet Tho. They don't seem to care that My Camaro handles better, Is faster, and has 4 seats alll they say is "oooo Corvette..."


Lastly, Thanks ede and Vader, You better becareful Or Im gonna get a Big head )

My Suggestion To You, Rocket, Is Set a Goal, Save your Money, and Get to know your Car. It is very capable Of the performance You described, and For alot Cheaper than You Think.



------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

That's actually what I used to believe. If I set my mind to it, I can make it what I want it to be. However, the pocketbook simply doesnst allow it, and neither does my patience. Okay, so 70's Corvettes are out of the question, they sound even more difficult than my current rattletrap. I just today saw what I want. I'm going to brace myself for some ridicule for this one, but if I've got AWD, 305hp, a five speed (or six speed), and a V6 TT that even gets good mileage, you can ridicule me all you want. It would hook like a motherf*cker and wouldn't stop til 165. Mmmmmm, Stealth.

 

back when I had two f bodies, I wanted my IROC to be fast for "cheaper." I ditched the 305 tpi, bought the gmpp 350 rated at 330 hp. I had the vortec heads ported, valve job, milled and new springs. I then added a CC XE268 cam with a holley 650 and edelbrock rpm. With a 5 speed, the car would run stock LS1 range. I got caught racing (beating a 98TA), therefore I sold it. It was pretty fast for pretty cheap in the big scheme of things. I am sticking with tpi on my 89 formula however - sure there are quite a few thirdgens around, just not a lot that still look good and run with/beat the 4th gens.

 

I was thinking about bailing on the 3rdgen f-car, and went and got a 2nd gen.

Posi rear end baby.
A th350 you can shoot with a tank, nice stall.

Black, the hood bird, ttops, black vinyl.
8 track baby.

1500 canadian pesos.

I have access to a poncho 400 for 600 bucks or an absolutely free chev 400 in need of a rebuild.

For around 3 grand I could pull the front tires off the ground.

But then I came to the realization that how a car LOOKS is also important. Common, nothing is more sleeker than a 3rd gen. When I took the 2nd gen out for a test spin with it's hurting 301ci, my girlfriend was afraid to get in the thing. We don't want that now don't we?

Well, the oilchange boys up the street said, "get a new girlfriend, car stays." But I'm sure they're used to pulling it.

To hell with the weak t-5 im sending out in shrapnel, the chev400 is going in and the 2nd gen is up for sale at a profit. Now if it would only start...

Later,
Hype.

 

How about

Mid 70's 240Z then stick small block chevy (383, LT1, L98, your weapon of choice)in that ****.

------------------
89CamaroRS
Power Rating: 1.21 Jigowatts
Mods:Flux Capacitor
Future Plans: Time Travel

 

[quote][b]How about

Mid 70's 240Z then stick small block chevy (383, LT1, L98, your weapon of choice)in that ****.


Why not a 427 in a Fiero?

------------------
--Steve S--
1984 Trans Am 305 LG4, 5 speed Daily Driver, Flowmaster 80 Series
Holley 600 cfm & vacuum advance Soon: Edlebrock Intake & TES

 

How about a ported Polaris Storm 800 motor with triple pipes(160 hp) on the back of a go-cart frame!! YEAH! Easy 10's for less than $2000.

 

Oh yeah, by the way, I spent less than 1000 bucks to run what's in my sig below.

------------------
'83 Trans Am: 400 CID oil burning junkyard long block, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR, Edelbrock TES headers, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.532
Best MPH 102.24

 

If you get a Stealth be aware that the trannies have a tendency to tear up and they are VERY expensive to replace. Also, if you are getting one for fairly cheap it will have alot of problems. The turbos will likely need to be replaced (that is almost a given) and the engine may or may not be in too great shape. They are expensive cars to buy for the age and expensive to fix. If you get a nice one though there are a few key mods you can do and it will run HARD w/ that AWD launch... (that AWD launch is tough, tough, tough on components though).

If you want to get a higher-end Turbo import may I suggest the Supra Turbo, 93 and newer. They have a virtually bulletproof drivetrain and engine. About the only thing you would need to replace is the turbos around 120 ish thousand miles. Check out www.mkiv.com and www.supraforums.com for info on the car. Pay special attention to the power that beast puts out w/ less than $1K worth of mods... The car is made extremely well and has one hell of a badass interior. Initial purchase price on the car is pretty high though, but you can get a nice 93-94 for $15K, maybe less if you shop around and find a deal...

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited May 04, 2001).]

 

if you want some REAL fun, check my sig....

------------------
85 Berlinetta Iroc exterior NOW 454 powered, 4.10 gears, 275/60/15 Hoosier Quicktimes and a PILE of other goodies..........YES, it's street driven!

check it out at http://www.bsronline.net/members/rob/rob_specs.html

 

I'm aware of the tranny problems in the Stealths and 3000GTs, but they aren't really much more to replace than a decent, durable automatic tranny for an F-body. Kormex transmissions (for Stealths) are very durable and cost around $2000. Expensive, ya, but you get what you pay for. I seriously doubt the turbos have much trouble unless the owner never changed the oil. I believe Stealths only run about 8-10 psi. The engine? I guess you take that risk with any used car.

RRL98

------------------
'83 Firebird 2.8
'89 Firebird Formula 350
Red/grey, t-tops, and a 3.27:1 rear
K&N, TB bypass, no MAF screens, CAI, full Accel ignition, no cats, Hooker Supercomp shorties, Hooker 3-inch catback
ET? It's slower than your 305...

 

If you really want to get a 'Vette, go ahead. Lots of guys like the styling, and want whatever image the vette may have. But if you think that the vette would be cheaper than your current car, you are fooling yourself. You are looking at a Vette with a blown motor? Which means you would be buying a whole new engine for that if you bought that? Don't you think that buying a whole new high performance engine for the Vette would cost a helluva lot more than the cost of the mods required to really make your car scream? If all you want is to get into the 13s, that's easy. You just gotta put some effort into it.

Frankly, from your list of mods you haven't done a whole lot to your car yet. You've done some of the popular free stuff, and a couple of other popular bolt ons much of which won't help your car until the motor starts breathing better than stock anyhow; I'm referring to MAF screen elimination and improved ignition system. The exhaust was a very good place to start your mods, but any mod worth a crap needs to be done in conjunction with other modifications. Have you adjusted your fuel pressure? Your ignition timing? How much effort have you put into plain old tuning the car? You can't just buy tuning and bolt it on. You have to do it yourself.

It sounds to me like all you have done is bolt on a few parts, and when your car didn't immediately fly like the wind you got frustrated at it. It doesn't work that way.

Get back to your car, and find the proper fuel pressure setting for it. Play with the timing some. Port the plenum. Get your hands dirty and learn what the car needs.

If you really feel like quitting on your car, maybe a Vette is more your style anyhow. Most vette owners have a reputation as people who don't know jack about cars anyhow, they just want to buy a fast car without putting any effort into it. However, if you are willing to get your hands dirty and fix your car right, you may have the makings of a real thirdgenner yet.

------------------
89 IROC with lots o' stuff

-=ICON Motorsports=-

[This message has been edited by D_Amlee (edited May 07, 2001).]

 

And don't even think about blowing the rear in a Vette. OUCH!

 

ahhhh yes the inevidable question, to sell or not to sell, why a vette i do not know but what i do know is that with real power the vette IRS come apart at about 400 hp, i saw one gernade at a track once, third gens are not that bad, i have an 82 everyone at my school loves it,and so do I,it is not that fast but it works and you have to have the passion for the car in my opinion, every time i drive my car it excites me and i will drive it until it no longer does.

Speed wise and L98 is just about torque so you have to build around that, the rears are not that weak, they just need a little help, bolt on a thick cast aluminum cover and a main cap girdle,, the axles might go but should be good up to 400 Hp(on a good day)if you have 28 spline.
The engine--- all you have to do is let it breathe,and it all depends how deep you want to dive into it, put a cold air intake on it, larger roller rockers, even better--- a cam, and keep the exhaust as open as possible--headers, large exhaust 3" or larger,good muffler,ect--- turn up the fuel a little and if you have the heads off have a very good shop port them for you. The tranny will go no matter what, they are not strong enough for stock and will not be strong enough for any power, and last when you get the money nothing can get more air in than a supercharger, but money is a consideration like always, but performance is not cheap and never will be, but i live in Canada and i pay twich what you pay, if you dont want to spend the money to go fast than you wont, no matter what kind of car you have.

in a side note--- more power is not always the key to a fun car, i have a friend with a 90 mustang, he has everything--built bottom end,heads,custom chip,intake-upper and lower, cam,roller rockers,new trans,new rear & gears in back, supercharger-intercooler,exhaust,everything and he drives it on the street(with less boost than at track) built just huge and he went to the track for the 3rd time with this combination and hit sub 10 and now has to put in big time roll cage, he has unmeasurable amounts of cash in this thing, but he is now at a loss of what to do because it has too much power and he thinks it will kill him so gos to show what too much power can do

 

As far as the snowmobile engine in the go Kart goes, I second it, but the polaris 800 blah, puke. Nah just joking there alright I'm just used to hillclimbing where Skidoo rules.

I've always thought it would be pretty cool to by one of those kids junior dragsters, put the large snowmobile engine of your choice along with roller snowmobile clutches and 13 inch rims with import Mickey Thompsons. You could run soooo fast. Especially if you had the dough ($20,000)to put in a genesis 1500 cc 300hp beast.

Anyways if that's out of the question I say save up for the ramjet intake, some vortec heads and go wax some new cars. Try not to worry about stuff breaking, if it breaks, fix it. You can get alot done for cheap if you put some effort into it.

 

Guys, c'mon now the C3 rears are not that bad, mine hasn't fragged yet and it's behind a pretty stout small block.
As for 'vette costs, forget about the big things, go price a bloody clock for the dash. Over a bill for non-NOS/NOS type rebuilt, that should be enough to put it in perspective.

D, I really do resent that broad generalization.


------------------
"To provoke dreams of terror in the slumber of prosperity has become the moral duty of literature"

-Ernst Fischer

 

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 84TransAm:
[b]Why not a Geo Metro with a Caddie 500?

 

LIAR! SLP costs a lot, headers are a couple hundred at least, MSD injectors, rear end? Did you get some good deals or what? I would cry if you paid less than 1k for that stuff!

 

Edelbrock headers: $125 From the Want ADvertiser(used)

400 Engine: $400 Bucks

MSD injectors $100 From Ebay

Summit Cam: $80

Summit Roller Rockers: $150

Timing chain: $40

SLP Cat back: $300

"Underdrive" pullies: $3 Pulled off a '69 chevy pickup at a salvage yard.

Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump: $200

Centrforce Stage II Clutch: $65 (free used [<5000mi] presure plate from a friend who was upgrading to a T-56 + the $65 for a new disk)

3.45/ 12" Disk rear end: Free (I used to work at a salvage yard!)

53mm TB's: Free. I did it myself

Ported intake: Free. I did it myself

AFPR: Free. I modded stock unit to make it adjustable.

KYB struts, De Carbon Shocks, 1LE susp: All Free from the Salvage yard I Worked at (my boss was cool).

So I guess you got me! I'm at $1353.00 Sorry. Might as well bring it up to $1500.00 for miscellaneous junk.

So for $1500.00 I'm at 13.5 @102. I stand corrected. It should be noted that it has taken me a long time to accumulate all these parts. I get them as I see a bargan, not necessarily as I WANT them. So not being in any hurry has helped my bang/buck ratio.


CanadianBeast: YEAH!! That junior dragster idea is GREAT! That thing would haul A$$! Plus the bigger drive wheels would help it MPH better than the snowmo's do. Yea, that would be a blast. And I do love Skidoo's too Polsaris/Skidoo are both good, solid machines. It's the other two that I'm not fond of. And I've owned them all.

[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited May 08, 2001).]

 

Hey, two whomever wanted to trade the 78 Vette for a Formula, I have an 1988 L98 Formula, and 1990 LB9 Iroc - 5 speed that I will trade you....any day of any month of any year!

Getting an 3rd gen Fbody car into the 13's seems just so easy for some people, but not for all of us. I don't know why this is, but my buddy put about $6,000 into an 88 IROC (L98) and ran 15.1's! He didn't buy stupid parts either, base + runners (AS&M runner, Edelbrock Base), TB (1000 CFM), cam (LT4 Hot Cam), porting the heads (Aluminum Corvette units already on the car...the iron heads were long gone), gears (3.73), exhaust (3 in flowmaster), chip and ignition coil/wires/module....

What should you buy to go fast? A fourth Gen, preferably an LS1 (My LT1 blew itself apart many times due to a small design flaw), or a late 60's early 70's Dodge or Chevy product. A Turbo Regal isn't a bad bet, but I hate the fact that all the last options have the aerodynamics of a flying bookshelf.....

On the note of the third gen Vette being a hunk of crap, gee....I seem to remember the 370/380 HP LT - 1, 350ci motor in those cars in 1970...with a factory warranty. Maybe it was just a fluke that the rears seemed to last?

However, what so many of these people fail to see is that the Vette was designed ONLY for performance. Two Seats, fiberglass, IRS, and the best motors GM made at the time of production. The vette will always be a much better balanced car than the Fbody, and given more powerful motors from the factory on top of that. Also, compare doing the fuel pump in a fourth gen vette to a third or fourth gen F-body.... three hours after I'm done with the vette, I almost promise you'll still be wrenching on the Fbody, but I'll bring a slice of pizza over for you, lol.

IRS famous for being weak? Goto to www.google.com and search for a 900HP Corvette, it's called the snake skinner or snake killer or snake something or other...Show me a GM 10 bolt with any kind of rear cover that will stand up to 900HP shift pionts....Maybe the C3 rears weren't the Very best thing, but I'd rather have one of those over a bomb waiting to explode under my A$$!

 

Actually, in the mid 80's, when the IROC's came out, I would have to say that those were better balanced car's than the Vette's. They were only slightly slower, but DID have better handling. And these car's were four seaters, and cheaper.


And there should be NO REASON IN HELL someone put 6 grand into a L98 and is running low 15's. The only excuse for that is if his engine has 500,000 miles on it and is seriously fukd, which, in that case, for well under 6 grand he could have bought a new crate engine and been in the 13's. He just doesn't know where to put his money.

I spent about a grand on performance parts and have my LG4 in the low 15's...


[This message has been edited by MikeDwhoROCZImports (edited May 08, 2001).]

 

I'm totally with you on this one dude.

How about $1000? If I already stuck $1000 into the thing and it runs 15s, I'd hate to see what it would cost for 13s.

I have to defend the Corvette on this one. When the IROCs came out, they had 5.0s, and weren't close to as fast as the Vettes. Okay, maybe the IROC handled a little better, but throw in a couple of bumps and see what happens. Plus the Vette had a manual and defintely was the more refined car. Don't get me wrong, I like F-bodies, but they're simply not in the same league as a Corvette.
That being said, does anyone else have any rational ideas for a performance platform? Some of these are amusing, but I'm serious here, I need to start looking for a different car. Thanks.

 

C4... it's rear end stood up and laughed in the face of the massive LT5. It was about to pull a solid G out of the factory in 84...(never known ANY STOCK IROC to do that! But hey, they somehow handle better....yeah, right). Stay away from the Doug Nash 4+3...really expensive, and not all that cool. In 1988 Chevy released the Vette with the new German built 6 speed. Very good tranny! A little pricey, but I have yet to hear of one needing anything more than bearings or synchronizers.

Solid Axle Torque Arm Rear Suspension versus an coil spring IRS...your kidding, handle better? LOL, maybe launch only slightly more consistantly at the drag strip with a suspension turned perfectly for drag racing, but like someone else pionted out...let's say your take a curve at 100MPH and hit a bump...I hope they enjoy scrapping your remains off the wall! The IRS however allows each tire to move independantly, so what happens to one side dosen't affect the whole back end.

The C4 uses a superior front suspension to the third gen on top of that. A true MacPherson Suspension is hard to beat...but we don't have those, we have the mod'ed version.... The LSA suspension in the front of the C4 is VASTLY superior. They could have easily designed strut towers in a C4, so there has to be a reason they didn't...OH YEAH, the Corvette, built for performance, the Camaro, built for the guy with a kid, who wants to look sporty, and be quick but pure performance isn't a realistic goal.

C4 - better ehxaust layout, making true duals possible. I don't want to hear that a single 3 inch pipe will outflow two 2.5 inch pipes, because you are just kidding yourself with theories that you didn't create, to make yourself feel better about the fact that your car was designed with cost in mind, not performance. Besides, the last time I saw any math equations that were the same for Fluid and Air measurements and travel rates was...oh yeah, NEVER!

C4, less frontal area, lower drag numbers... 'nuff said.

C4, a high quality sound system...ThirdGen a challanged sound system based purely on speaker location and the sizes used, along with the resonance created by the 6x9's.

C4, everything in the engine bay is easier to do on it besides removing the radiator, but that isn't to tough either. How many times could you reach down far enough, or over far enough because you have a fender sticking in your gut? Also, doing front suspension work is FAR easier on a C4 than a ThirdGen...Rear Suspension is different, only because the Corvette has a PERFORMANCE rear, not a BUDGET rear.

C4, aluminum heads versus the Fbody's Iron heads on the L98.

C4, larger rims, with superior backspacing (compared to the weird measurements on the ThirdGen). Also, much better tires from the show room.

C4, CHEAP! CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP - as far as real performance cars go. Hell the LT1 vettes can be had for 12-14k every day, with better deals if you wait and hunt. The L98 Vette 6.5-10k. The 84 CrossFire 4.5-6k!

Now, as far as that 6 grand, 15 second Iroc. The car has 54,000 miles on it, which is why I told him to buy it in the first place. The tranny was rebuilt the first week he had it, that was last summer. We did a completely new suspension setup for mostly drag racing first, then attacked the drivetrain. Softer rear springs, softer rear shocks, but tight enough that they will transfer weight well, yet still be strong enough to keep the nose down doing most of the run. Removed AC to save weight. All the engine mods I listed above, 15.1 at 86 MPH on a 72 degree day, with good track conditions and low humidity! BTW, he now has a GN running 9's, so we have to know how to do SOMETHING right...and he still can't sell the Iroc, nobody wants it! It's cheap, $4,200, but everyone is turning away from the ThirdGen's like they are the plague.

So, you tell me sure, being that the compression on all cylanders tested real close to what they should and to each other, and we have re-burned and re-burned and re-burned new proms for it, what would you do? We've done all that is reasonable and the car is still a slug.

Have you guys noticed all the people who write into GMHTP saying how the hell can the magnum only be running 14's blah blah blah, my Iroc runs 13.5's all day long. Well, the magnum is the prime example of the majority of our cars...


The only thing wrong with my buddys Iroc is that it shifts out of first real early...at 3,800-4k RPM. However, even if that was the case, the car should still be above 100MPH by the end of the race for all the money we have dumped into it.

 

I fail to see how any of this $6K 15.1 fiasco is the thirdgen's fault. You guys have something wrong w/ the engine or drivetrain, end of story. Whatever the problem is I doubt it would make much difference what type of car frame you dropped the drivetrain in, it would still be a slug as something is obviously wrong. Hell the stock L98 should kick the crap outta that 15.1...

The thirdgen is a great platform to build a car off of. They have modern styling (compared to a Nova or Chevelle or something), handle and brake well, and can take virtually any engine/tranny/rearend combo you can come up with. What more could you want in a platform?

By saying most people can't get their thirdgen to run right all you're saying is most people don't know what they're doing, or screwed something up in the process of building the car (can happen to anyone) and can't figure out what is wrong now...

GMHTP got some low 13s out of Magnum last I checked, which is still not that hot but IMO some of their parts are mismatched.

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray


[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited May 08, 2001).]

 

I am sorry to say this but if you want to make a big mistake get a 88-92 mustang notchback with a 5 speed they only weigh 3100 pounds. All the guys in my town have muffstains and they will buy a car for only 5000 dollars and throw 2000 in the motor and run in the low 12 on motor (and put a 150hp nitrous setup and run in the high 10s). personally I feel sorry for anyone that makes this mistake. seeing as my mustang friends are always at my house with a clutch,trans,dist,comp,the dreaded headgasket or some other kind of problem. no one can argue with the fact that they are light and fast but they are cheep peices of crap. But they are a cheep thrill

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97 formula w/6speed,cags skipshift eleminator, hurst billet pro shifter, 30#injectors,adjustiable fuel presure regulator,Moroso cold air induction,ported mass air sensor,accell300+ ignition box, accell 9000 wires, bosch platnum4 plugs,flomaster crossflow muffler,Lingenfiter 52mm throttle body,TPIS L98 SuperProfile cam,Crane 1:6 full roller rockers,Edelbrock subframe connectors,Edelbrock strut tower brace.

Other car is a 89 GTA w/700r4w/stage 2 shift kit, corvette servo, B&M mega shifter, TPIS bigmouth intake, TPIS large tube runners, TPIS 52mm throttle body,LT1 24# injectors,GMPP LT4 hotcam,CompCams Pro magnum roller rockers, this car is currently under rebuild and restoration.

 

god that hurt me to say

 

Ray, we get no trouble codes, easily pass an E-check, and it runs great, almost like a civic, lol. I'm sorry you can't accept that the numbers that we got, were the numbers we got, but while we may be the worst example, look around, people throwing a grand into their car and STILL running 15's? Also, I like how we screwed something up on the good ole' small block, but when it comes to those Turbo EFI motors, we managed to not screw a damn thing up and chop about 4 seconds off it's 1/4 mile times. Pretty interesting... I wasn't blaming the platform...well above and beyond it's SPECIFIC inherent "Cuts" in performance for money, but rather the design of TPI units, the 700R4 with it's messed up shift from 1-2 (the wide ratio), the single exhuast layout, what else do you want? LOL... Read what I write for what it is, don't read what I write and convince yourself it means something it dosen't.

If you thought I was blaming the platform because he can't sell the hunk of $hit, well....why is it that the third gen's have always been the laughing stock of the racing community? Seriously, nobody serious about racing starts with them. They get a GN, a Chevelle, a GTO....something proven to win races, not something proven to have everyone laughing at.

 

So what you're telling us is that the engine in that car runs like a top, there is absolutely nothing wrong w/ it or the tranny/rearend setup, it was driven to the fullest potential that it had, and it only ran a 15.1 because the thirdgen is a POS. I'm sorry, but a high dollar engine like that in a 3500 pound car that runs a 15.1 has something wrong with it or is spinning from here to the moon on the launch. It doesn't matter what platform it is. There is nothing to argue there. That car is screwed, and it is because the engine is not making power or is not getting much of anything in the way of power to the ground. That is not a thirdgen related problem, that is a problem w/ the builder and/or driver.

Now your point about not being able to sell the car because it is a thirdgen is certainly valid. The demand for a thirdgen isn't exactly high. I rather like it like that since it keeps initial purchase price down though...

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

[This message has been edited by Ray87Z (edited May 09, 2001).]

 

Funny, My 700$ invested Lg4 Ran a 15.2 Just last week...



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Reader's ride -&gt; My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

Sounds like you could use a Grand National or a T-Type.

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1991 Trans Am GTA, Accel 300+ ignition, underdrive pulleys, AFPR, Accel SuperRam (ported out), Edelbrock lower intake (ported out), BBK 58mm TB, TFS 23* heads, SLP 1 3/4 headers, SLP 3" cat back (no cat), CompCam .495/.502 lift, Kenny Bell strut tower brace, lower frame brace, Jeg's SFC, Lakewood trailing arms and panhard rod

Pony's can run, but bird can fly

1987 Buick Turbo-T
1977 Chevy Blazer 4X4

 

Yup that about does it Ray. The car runs perfectly smoothly, no detination, no misfires, hell. It gets good gas millage considering how it's driven (We pulled 24 MPG on the highway recently with 3.73 gears)...so obviously the combustion process is efficient, and efficient combustion = more power than not normally.

The rear end is fine, we have taken it apart, and there iis nothing stock left in it but the axles...new clutch style posi unit, working properly, new gears, new back plate w/ support griddle, new UV joints on both sides of the driveshaft. The tranny, rebuilt very very recently, maybe 3k miles ago, no slipping sifts, no slopiness in it's downshifts. The stock convertor is locking up properly, (we hooked the shift light back up to see when it turns on, and when that light comes on the RPM's drop by a few hundred without exception).

So, I don't know what magical solution you are looking for. I got the car to 15.1 down the track, then we had other people at the track drive it several times, 15.18 was their best effort, and the owner...well sucks at driving, lets put it that way. Either something is screwed in the motor or in the driver...well it's not the driver because we've had about 6 people drive it down the 1320 now, and it's not the motor by all signs I can see, it is running great. Plugs are perfect every 1,000 miles, timing is 4 degrees advanced, great gas millage, smooth running...sounds like all the symptoms of a good running motor to me.

Oh well... either way, if you think it's just the driver, or us the mechanics, why don't you come to Ohio at some piont in time, and show us how it's done

(It's obvious by our 9 second GN that we don't know how to turn a wrench or drive a car)

 

Sounds like you all have tried the right stuff to track the problem down, I doubt I'd have anymore luck I'm no master mechanic... But it still stands there is something wrong w/ the car or something is badly mismatched for power. What exactly is the setup on this thing, I'm curious now.

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

 

********THIRD GEN FOR LIFE*********
***LONG LIVE TPI***

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92 Z-28
305 -5speed
160 thermo.
K&N Air Filters
B&M Ripper
14.7 @ 96mph (stock run)

 

Good for you.

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'83 Firebird 2.8
'89 Firebird Formula 350
Red/grey, t-tops, and a 3.27:1 rear
K&N, TB bypass, no MAF screens, CAI, full Accel ignition, no cats, Hooker Supercomp shorties, Hooker 3-inch catback
ET? It's slower than your 305...

 

On the slow f-body... what are your 60' times? At what altitude are you? What is your trap speed? What size rim/tire combo do you have? What type+stall converter? How is your suspension set-up? Compression? Timing? Injectors? Have you pulled any Diacom readings? How does the O2 look? You may have to look into the chip. Remember you killed your velocity with the big TB and those gears will not help. And that early shift out of first really needs to be corrected.

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"To provoke dreams of terror in the slumber of prosperity has become the moral duty of literature"

-Ernst Fischer