Combination:

AS&M runners, Edelbrock base, Ported intake and exhuast ports on Aluminum L98 heads, 3 angle valve job, LT4 hot cam kit, Stock convertor, 3.73 rear gears in the BW 9 bolt rear, SLP 1 3/4 headers, SLP Y pipe, test pipe, 3 inch flowmaster exhaust, BBK 1000 CFM TB, Cam installed straight up, Ignition - base advance 4 degrees, don't know the computer advance, we've had the chip reburned 6 times now for it in an effort to get the car moving faster, MSD Blaster Coil, Accel 9mm hi temp 300+ wires, splitfire plugs, Accel cap and rotor, plenum matched to runner ports, runners and base gasket matched, heads gasket matched, the wall behind the throttle blades ground out, relocated MAT sensor, John Adams rear control arms, Koni 80/20 struts, KYB gas adjust shocks, 16x10 steel bullet hole rims in back with MT's DOT approved slicks (Tried almost all pressures between 42 psi and 22 psi...), 15x3.5 skiny fronts, Chip reburned several times all with the same part combination in mind. They tried adding some advance, taking some away, adding fuel, taking some away, you name it, we tickered with it. Oh yeah, March underdrive pullies, and modified MAF sensor. We've tried to run with the Knock Sensor unpluged, no real benefit to be found there either.

I think I pretty much hit everything...Motor rev's happy as hell up to about 5900 RPM, which with the 3.73 rear gear we are closing the line at between 5400-5700 RPM in third every time. Trap speeds have varied from 83 MPH to 88 MPH, 60 fts never below 2.1's...

Even if I were to help out the 60 ft time with a convertor...it wouldn't help me with the fact I'm still crossing the line slow as a slug compared to the 130+ MPH of the Regal, lol.

I really don't want to bust any more of my knucles on his car, and he dosen't want to throw good money after bad into a car that has laughed in our faces. Oh, and on the funny side, I pulled the intake and heads after our first trip to the track with it, just to make sure the bore measured right (4.003 across the board) for a 350 and not a 305

 

Oh yeah, Fuel pressure played with at the track, from 36 PIS to 48 PSI, no big diferences, and we installed a fuel pump he got from Summit that was suppost to be good for up to 650 HP, intank.

 

Listen to what youre saying.

Great Gas mileage on a very un-fuel efficient setup. (3.73 rear for one)

Poor track times

Relocated sensors

No mention of 02 status

No lights, but that doesnt mean anything.

Conclusion?
Youre running lean. The computer is going to go w/ what it considers correct. Your sensors, or chip, are causing you to run lean. Fix that problem, then you'll be on your way.

Good luck

Clayton

 

I know I'd be disappointed if I had that setup and was running poorly... It has got to have something wrong. Who knows, the short shifting thing may be costing a half second (still slow)...

------------------
Ray87Z
-Vortec headed 350.
86 IROC w/ a cammed 305 TPI.
Formerly Ray86IROC.
www.inter-scape.com/Ray

 

Slow Iroc-

Not to nit pick, but a few clarifications on the C4 Vette...

There were 2 rear ends. The auto had a Dana 36, the manual had a Dana 44. The 36 is fine on a stock car. Mod it, and grenade it! Mine grenaded so badly it split the casing. I now have a D44.

Stock exhaust on the C4 is 2 1/4.

Aluminum heads weren't introduced on the C4 until mid '86.

The ZF-6 speed wasn't introduced until 1989.

The stock sound system sucked.

In all, though, you were pretty much right on the money, and the C4 Vette will always be my favorite ride.

------------------
408cid 1985 Corvette
http://www.mojosgarage.com

 

I couldn't agree more. It always gets on my nerves when people don't give the Corvette its dues. Even comparing a Corvette to an F-body is disrespecting it. I couldn't car less which is the faster car, the Corvette is a symbol of American engineering and even America itself. Personally, I have great respect for all Corvettes, 53-01.

So...how good is that Dana 44?

 

The Dana 44 is pretty close to bulletproof. As a bonus, they came with better gears than the Dana 36 did. The most common sets were 3.45 and 3.56. I have the 3.45's and they're about perfect for my application.



------------------
408cid 1985 Corvette
http://www.mojosgarage.com

 

I know im probably gonna get flamed for this, but if all you want to do is go fast, why not pull a $200 RX-7 rotary motor from a junkyard and put it in a suzuki samuri. i know its forign but it will run all day and is very light. a guy in a rival street team runs one and it is incredible. i personally stay away from foreign cars, but do as you will

dan

------------------
i got an 84 camaro, shes got a 89 mustang. which do i have to work on more?

 

and you know what I hate? PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT THEIR CAR, THEN DONT LISTEN WHEN PEOPLE TELL THEM WHATS WRONG!

Go ahead and get the other body style, but if you cant fix a running lean problem in this body, what makes you think it will go away in another style?

Clayton

 

Hey EL, thanks for trying to be helpful, however, the fuel problem has been well addressed. Next try please...

24lb/hr LT1 injectors, straight from the GM dealership + 48 PSI of pressure for 5.7L's...there's NO WAY IN HELL the car is running lean! By the way, if it was a lean problem, wouldn't time slips be reduced as pressure increased? We showed a drop in 1/4 mile performance at 46 PSI, but decided to try 48 just to see...just went slower. That would suggest running to rich.

On the C4 subject, the ZF 6 speed was avaliable in June of 1988. However, the first FULL year of production for the ZF6spd cars was 1989. This information was taken from "Corvette: The American Legend" which is a complete documented history of the design of the C2-C4.

The dana 36 is still a damn good rear, no matter what yours may have done. There will always be bad examples for any peice or part, but when I went to a "Performance Modification" specialty shop to investigate what they felt the best gear combination would be for my car (10 bolt) and my buddies car (9 bolt)...I will never forget our breif exchange of words.

Guy behind the counter: "Do you plan on making more than 350HP?
Me: "Well I hope so."
Guy: "Good luck, those 10 bolts GM put into those cars are pretty horrible."
Me: "Well what are common problems with them?"
Guy: "Oh, you mean besides exploding?"

LOL, I'll take a Dana 36 over a 10/9bolt any day! I'm sorry you had bad luck with yours.

Sound System, okay, please stop there. Sit in a stock Camaro, then sit in a stock Vette...no comparison. Neither are very good, but the Vette resinants much less, and it's much more crisp sounding.

Stock exhuast on a C4 is 2 1/4 inches? Well damn, how about if you get specific for us, as the exhaust changed in 92. What was the diameter of the center pipe section behind the cat? (3 inches last I checked...and according to a book detailing the history of the C4.) Just based on having two mufflers the exhuast is better, let alone the layout, which as I have said before, allows for the possability of installing a dual exhuast in your driveway.

Either way, it's a toss up on the tranny. 88 or 89...well 89 was the first full year of production, so maybe your right, but they were made avaliable in June of 88, so maybe I'm right....does anyone really care? LOL I just thank god your not disputing the fact that the C4 is a much better vehicle than the Fbody.

(If someone still wants to address the "Lean" non-existant problem, I'm all ears.)

 

I couldnt find it on second glance, but I am pretty sure you said that your plugs were always clean when you pulled them. (If you didnt, disregard the below) If you did say that, then that alone says LEAN!

Plug color/meaning
White / Lean
Tan / Right on
Grey or black / Rich

Clayton

 

It won't fit without heavy modification to the firewall, cradle, and rear cargo compartment (it's too wide). I've already checked. However, there are quite a few Fieros with SBCs and many of those are in the single-digit timeslip arena. And they still look like a stock roller skate - what a sleeper.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"What a Day..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader

 

V, when are you gonna stuff the 355 in?? I may have to take a trip out.

On the slow "POS". The TB is too large by far and the problem is compounded by those gears. Swap out to a stocker.
For that set up you should bump up that base timing to around 8º. May want to try a new ignition module, but I would rather toss on an MSD 6A.
The converter is far from optimal for that set up and I think the suspension may be tweaked a bit more, the shock/strut set up is a tad overkill. See if you can get a 'Vette or S10 one out of a boneyard.
Try swapping out to another non-modified MAF sensor (and new relays) and a new O2 sensor as well as a STOCK chip (or a re-burned stock values chip sans EGR).
You really need to plug it into a Diacom. You may want to play with stock injectors for a bit also, or flow match the ones you have to make sure they are OK. Also double check the injector signals. Also I think the general consensus is that a relocated MAT sensor does nothing for MAF cars. You also have to address the shifting issue.

You didn't mention your altitude, nor CR. Also have you checked the brakes for excessive drag? Did you double check your valvetrain? Do you have any emissions reading off this car?

------------------
"To provoke dreams of terror in the slumber of prosperity has become the moral duty of literature"

-Ernst Fischer

 

go back to stock and turbo it you'll have the same power off the line but 30 feet outta the hole the hairdryer will kick in forcefeeding that stock tpi to well past it's 4800 rpm wall best of both worlds tourqe down low horsepower up high

 

As for the guy talkin bout his R1........exactly how fun is it to watch the tail of the new GSXR-1000 pull away from you all the time?

As for the car that won't run right.... That TB is way to big for your setup. The stock converter is so completely mismatched to that cam it isn't funny. There are other problems but mismatching is all over the place in that car. People gotta understand that you can't just bolt $hit on and expect the published HP gain that it is rated at giving you......... Everything works together!!!

I think your problem is that you are used to tuning the GN which is a completely different animal than a Tuned Port. The GN is the kind of car that you actually can get away with just bolting things on one at a time and getting huge gains in performance. Those cars are awesome...... but they spoil ya when it comes to tuning.

Anyways..........

My $.02 for now.

Laterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

------------------
Matt

1987 GTA L98 MD8 GW6

"Stop Lights timed for 35Mph are also timed for 70Mph"

 

I'm sure that this guy is not prepared to spend that kind of money and tuning required to get that done to his car. But if he did...................... it would be an awesome setup....... you would have the V8 power right away and when the boost comes up.......... say, that gives me an idea.....

 

All I'm hearing is mismatch, mismatched, mismatch. Well tell me how? The cam works great in the operating range of the runners, the heads flow enough air to still provide power high, while maintaining air speed, the TB might be a bit big, but it's not going to cost me 1.5 seconds!

The Convertor I know is $hit, but either way, my MPH readings should be higher, even with a $hitty convertor.

Basicly, your telling me it's mismatched, then not coming through with what we should change...

We approached the GN, JUST LIKE the Camaro. Turbo (Intake), heads-stock+Ported, cam, exhuast, downpipe, intercooler (intake), gears, and by that time we were in the deep 10's, so doing a convertor seemed VERY justifiable, perticularly when we were already in the 120 MPH zone, and it just put the icing on the cake.

There was no difference between how we did that camaro and the GN. Intake, Cam, Heads, Exhuast....it's just that simple. TPI Motors suck, end of story. If the intake was designed like Fords 302 intake, with the runner pionted down and banking towards the port (T-Ram anyone???) then it might have more potential. I've found a great deal on a MudStain, I think I'm going with it and selling my Iroc next to his.

 

It seems to me I said mismatched without saying the exact word, AND stated examples. So let me tear into it a tad more then for you eh?
Examples of your mismatch I have given.
The cam is more suited to a SR or MR, just b/c some of us can get it to work in an LTR set up does not mean it is a given in all apps.
These terms are mutually exclusive in heads Low RPM velocity:High RPM flow.
TB not too big to cost you? See this is exactly the type of thing that you need to test. Most of us call it TUNING. You should ask some guys how much time they spend on the combo after it's all together just tweaking. Patience is the name of this game.
Really? What about if you ballooned your converter, or the fluid flow is compromised in some way? Just go get an S10 converter if you want a cheap control.
Basically I have told you it is mismatched by way of specific examples and I also tell you exactly what to try. To come back and bitch like a little girl that everyone is screaming mismatch without handing you answers is a bogus inept asinine mistruth.
If you mismatched the GN in the same manner in which you mismatched the Camaro you won't notice, you have forced induction to mask any goof ups in the selection of intake parts.
Intake, cams, heads... it's just that simple? Ya right. I hope you do not plan on going fast in the 'vert' GT, you'll be sorely disappointed.
You need more? Let's see... The TB is killing your velocity and your hogged out heads are killing it even more, and if not they certainly do not help matters. You have drag shocks that you really do not need on there, and certainly not before you address your torque arm geometry. You never stated the tire size, but looking at the overall selection of parts I think you probably picked a tall sidewall, in conjunction with those gears your killing yourself. They are not a complimentary set up to the LTR motor. The MT ET Street tires (wrinkle wall design) need to go a lot lower than BFG Drag Radial and I assume these are the DOT approved "slicks" of which you refer. I doubt the DOT would approve any real slick for street/highway use. You say you are crossing the line at 5700 RPM with the short first to second shift, I will repeat for the third time FIX the damn shift!
Have you tried a stock TB, MAF and chip yet? Why do people post looking for help and then bitch and moan later, and they have not even addressed any of the things brought up?!?
You want the car to be fast? Perform close to it's potential? Stop bitchin' and start reading damn it!

 

Word Rd, Word.



------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

LOL, this is rediculous.

runners,base, TB, cam, and moded heads still "running" 15's.

Even the most mismatched 5.0 will run better than that. Hell, you could put a circle track cam into a stock long block and it will still run better, lol.

 

If I may, getting the GN to run like you said you did, doesnt make you into an engine building god. It takes more than 1 car to know everything about building motors, so why dont you stop pretending that you did everything right, because obviously (even to me) you didnt do everything right. If you had done it right, the car would be much faster. Yet you insist on blaming the F-body, then the SBC design. How, in the name of all that is anything, can a body design slow you down 2 seconds? Furthermore, how can the SBC design be the problem? Face the facts, plenty of people have the F-Body w/ SBC power in the 13's. You just screwed up somewhere.

Why do some people have such a problem admitting they dont know everything and need some help?

I guess thats the wonder of this thing we call life.

Clayton

------------------


[This message has been edited by El Guapo (edited May 14, 2001).]

 

You moron, I had been asking people what I should do this entire post! LOL.

 

I have a lightly modded 305 running 15.5's and it is a TBI '92 RS. 15.1 is rediculous for the money you've spent. Sound like you've got a lemon. Now as for the C4 being an example of good american engineering, I will have to partially debate that. Yeah, it's a good performer for the money, but it lacks severely in the refinement dept. I have yet to ride in a '92 Corvette (ridden/driven 4 of them) that is as tight as my 123,000 mile Camaro RS. They rattle, they beat the hell out of their passengers, and I can spend less total money on an F-body and be faster than a Vette. That is FACT. Let's be real here. The resale is poor on 3rd gen camaro's and you can mod them up to low 13 second performers for LESS money than buying a decent used Vette. And you have 4 seats, and cheaper insurance, and cheaper parts. Yeah, it's on a budget, but it is still faster, and that is the name of the game. Yeah, vette's are eye candy and women love them, but I guarantee that anyone here would rather ride across the country in my camaro than any C4 vette. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, but you're making some pretty bold statements for being on this particular message board. Things like 3rd gens are the "laughing stock of racing". Not hardly, most people who start racing start with 3rd gens because they are a dime a dozen, easy to work on, and cheap to make fast. Not aero-dynamic? Check the co-efficient of drag on an '84 firebird, then check the 84 corvette. Just a thought anyways.

Chris

 

Moron? Never been called that before. Oh well.

BTW, Who's the one crying that their car isnt fast, and THEN saying that its the body of the car, then its the SBC design?
Cause after all, YOU got a GN to go fast, right? So it cant be YOUR fault. Who is the one who is saying to EVERYONE that what they suggest is wrong because YOU know what YOU are doing? Doesnt sound like asking for help. Sounds like complaining, sour graping, whatever you want to call it.

This is my last post to this thread. I refuse to participate in a name calling contest, and I know that I can not tell you whats wrong w/ your setup.

I genuinely hope you get the car running right.

Clayton

 

I can understand the pionts you are making about the ride quality of the C4, however, that ride quality also translates into great cornering abilities. (1g in an 84 C4 factory stock!)

As far as making bold statements, that's what I do. I'm not fake, and I don't try to kid myself. I develope a list of reasons and facts and compare them. Which ever has more advantages than disadvantages in relationship to the things it's being compared to, wins.

Even in GMHTP they call the Third Gen the laughing stock of cars. A few months ago, they had an issue that had mostly just third gen's in it. Nobody was running under 12's without a blower, or nitrous, or in one case, both!

There was a section in that issue refered to as "Ragin Cajun TPI" and it featured a blue 92 Z28. In the first few paragraphs they basicly said the same thing, laughing stock of racers. They also said this in the January 2000 issue, which featured a black Z28, which basicly had nothing from the factory left in it. A 12 bolt, a 406 SB, single plane EFI intake, DFI, dual 3 inch exhuast, and a TH 400...I wouldn't exactly call the car a representative of the third gen anymore. I would call it a typical chevy build up that happened to be put in the MODIFIED SHELL of a third gen.

As far as saying everyone is wrong, they aren't telling me things I haven't tried yet. "Check the plugs..." been there done that all of the time. "Switch back to a stock TB"...did it at the track! "Readjust the timing and fuel pressure..." Also did that! "Get a new chip burned for it"...I've had 5 so far!

There was only one person in this entire post that gave me a solid response of things he would change or do that included some things we haven't tried yet, and I thank him.

You guys get all pissy because I take your little third gen, and analyze it as a drag car, and conclude as any unbiased person would, that it was not well suited for the task.

How many 10 and 11 second Fbody's do you have in your neighborhood, and out of all of those, how many of them are third gens? Now, how many, just 86-93 Fox Bodies, do you have in your area that are in the 10/11 second range? Does this not tell you something? Particularly when the largest performance retail store in the nation has a section devoted to the Mustang?

Check your emotions with your ego's, unbiased truth and reason is coming through and dosen't have time for sniffling or crying.

 

Oh, that section's just because the Mustang guys can't find the parts on their own! They need help, that's all. Plus, if they put together all the parts in that section, they'll probably get a combo that doesn't need tuning.

[edit] https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/007686.html


[This message has been edited by TomP (edited May 14, 2001).]

 

Corvette v. Camaro is no contest - the Corvette is the better car but it costs a lot more....duh huh huh...

Camaro v. Mustang - yes they both have advantages and disadvantages but it is NOT rational and NOT logical to simply make a laundary list of them and compare on a 1:1 basis. You have to take into account how much you will VALUE each factor - then create what we rational people call a weighted average. So what will you find? You'll find that some people still buy mustangs for a cheap straight-line performance car (cheap as in $$$ spent - anyone with enough money would be better served in any case with - you guessed it - a vette/porsche etc.) and people still buy camaros for cheap handling, looks, and aerodynamics. The total valuation is what counts. And let's not forget that what people value MOST about cars seems to consistently be what they look like. Why to people pay out the a$$ for 66-69 mustangs/camaros that have bad suspensions, clapped out interiors, rust, you name it? Not because the platform is a superior street car, but because they LOOK nice. Go 11's in a clapped out stang you're still driving a cheesebox. For SERIOUS build-up enthusiasts, the goal is to start with a "shell" that will allow you to do what you want and will look sweet when you're done. For the "5.0 formula" people, the goal is to open up summit, turn to the holy pages, do a few bolts ons, then turn your hat backwards and go deliver pizzas REALLY fast!

The fact that thirdgen's were produced far below their potential is what we LIKE about them...let's see a stock bodied mustang go over 200 mph...we like to work on cars, to mod them, to learn about performance in the process - and all the potential a middle class person could hope for is in the platform. The other benefit of a gm is the universality of the parts - you can always go bigger and/or keep adding things.

Note: There are plenty of Ford/Chevy/Mopar (and pretty much everything else) folks who know what they're doing, both in general and specifically. So why don't they all agree on ONE platform that's the "best?" Because so much comes down to plain 'ol preference as discussed above.

Slow Iroc - you DO seem to know what you are talking about with regard to a lot of things - I would definitely have your friend find a good performance shop and see what they think. Did you see the post with Smitty going low 9's on a supercharged tpi 305?! That proves 2 things - the platform CAN'T suck THAT bad, and the riceboy credo: anything is possible with forced induction!

 

I agree with you on a lot of things. The third gen was not designed to be just a 'drag car', therefore it is not going to be a spectacular drag car, but rather a decent all-around performer. In truth, the 3rd gen really does a lot of things good, but no one thing really spectacular. (Maybe handling of a few models) I myself always believed GM should've been more focused with the platform and attempted to make at least one aspect of the car awesome. Take the fourth gens for instance, they look great, accelerate like rockets, and top out at insane speeds. Sure, some aspects of the car are simply mediocre, but at least you aren't left with a luke-warm performer that bores you to drive. ( Like my car ) But hell, I guess you can make excuses all day long, or you can do like I'm going to do; fix GMs mistake and yank that damn POS out of my engine bay and get this long-runner noose off my neck!

------------------
'83 Firebird 2.8
'89 Firebird Formula 350
Red/grey, t-tops, and a 3.27:1 rear
K&N, TB bypass, no MAF screens, CAI, full Accel ignition, no cats, Hooker Supercomp shorties, Hooker 3-inch catback
ET? It's slower than your 305...

 

Now there's an attitude I respect because based on that simple statement, he has looked at the information unbiasedly and saw, just as I did, that GM messed up. The entire design of the TPI system is unefficient and costly.
That's not to say Ford didn't F up some things on their car. Chasis stiffness, engine bay room, and the looks of the car.

However, when it comes to performance, the mustang just has many fewer things that you have to correct. Personally, I don't think I would enjoy POUNDING my floor pans up under the rear seats to make room for the two mufflers, just to correct GM's mistake. Then can you imagine the pain of fitting tailpipes over the rear axle? Jesus, no thanks, but that's only one mistake. Most people say you can't gain much with just a few bolts on's because TPI is so well tuned. BS, you can't because the design robs power in every which way. Massive turns in the air, the length of time the air is forced to sit in the baseplate, the multiple joints which can't help but to leak air and cause flow disruption. Ford simply designed a more efficient intake, which even though it's tuned for 2000-4900 RPM power ranges, it's can still let the motor wind up very high because while it may longer be efficient at those operating speeds, it will let the motor operate there.

In a 1986 issue of Car and Driver, I beleive, the Ford crew hard the guy downshift from 5 to 4 when going fot top speed. Can you imagine trying to do that in a TPI motor? The motor ended up at 5800 RPM, STOCK!

Think about it, from plenum to baseplate, the TPI forces the air to change an additional 90 degrees than the Mustangs intake! Then on top of it, the Mustang has a spacer inbetween the upper and lower manifold which acts also as a thermodynamic spacer, keeping the intake charge cooler, longer. Then there is the fact that the forward mounted throttle body forces the air to go ANOTHER 90 degrees just to get to the top of each runner!

Unefficient. Sure the Lt1, Mini-KaBoom-Ram has shorter runners, but I think a lot of it's ultimate power advantages come from the lack of air robbing joints, no baseplate to take away power and a superior port of entry angle. Check out the LS1 intake, 11 inchs in runner length I believe, maybe 12, I forget already, which is only 2/3 the length of the runners of the TPI setup, yet it allows the motors to wind up to 6500 RPM with ease! The reason I beleive, is partly because there is much less change of direction for the air, no joints, and the intake port setup dosen't hurt either...but I doubt we will see a Vortec stock TPI car rev'ing to 6500 RPM anytime soon. And yes, the Vortec and LS1 intake port designs aren't that different. They are, but the Vortec is closer to the LS1 then stock intake port designs. (I can feel the ave of people jumped all up and down about how the LS1 is more suited to high RPM operation as we speak, but the are only going to get an extra few hundred Rev's out of the lighter pushrods, pistons, etc. etc.....the air still has to be provided!)

Anyway, those last two posts impressed me... I wonder where the linching crowd is now that someone besides myself actually said "Hey, our cars aren't really well suited for Drag Racing!"

(By the way, I think guys go for the 68/69 camaro because it's light, no emissions problems, good rears from the factory, easy dual exhuast, and plenty of engine bay room. Sure they look cool, but I don't think that's the ONLY reason people buy them...let's put it this way, I have yet to see someone get rid of that crappy Yenko 427 for a nice ole' LB9 or L98.)

 

And I have Yet to see someoen Ditch the 429 SCJ for a 5.0


Whats your Point ?

If your really In Love with your 5.0 So much Go Buy one and sell your Fbod. You will soon Learn that there is No secret to performance, and that While some problems may dissapear, many others will rear in their place.

The 5.0 Is a great little engine, the SBC is Too.

Really Neither Is better. TPI is a proven performer, So is the 5.0 Induction. Just because you lack of experiance failed to net decent results, Dosent mean the entire system Sucks.

The Fox Bodied Mustang is a Cheaper, LIghter, More poorly constructed Car, Thats Not debatable. Its design is More suited to Drag Racing, But Just about Nothing else. The 3rd gen outhandles it, Out Rides it, Out lasts it, and Out Classes it. The Laughing Stock Of Racing ? Hardly. How many 5.0's Do you see out on the Autocross track ? How many 5.0 Bonneville Cars, How many 5.0 Pro Modified cars ?

If your Just want a Drag platform, Then The Thirdgen probrably isnt your best choice, and Neither is the Fox Body. Go source yourself a 60's G body, Find a big block, and Run 10's all day On Motor.

Or Go find yourself late 60's mustang, get a Correspinding FE big Block, and Do The same with the blue oval.

Or how bout a Old Mopar, slap in a 440 and find the 9's.

Any Way you like it.

Or you wanna Compare Stock setups? Lets talk about 9 second Supras On stock Bottom ends...


You can bitch about this all day, the fact is it really comes down to personal preferance.



------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

YES there are things that u can say Third Gens do best, and that would be Handling and the lower RPM TQ of TPI, besides their good balance of other things. YES there are dudes that like and know how to tune TPI and put it on their BBC's and other kinds of engines, theres even some on this board.

When u mod, u have to do work, if u are not willing to do the work required and spend the $$ to make a much better car fast, get the cheap a** car and mod that. Dudes that have more sense get a better made car like the Third Gen that know what they are doing and constantly beat M*****g's and sound much better doing it with their 350 ci engines, even if it has a single 3" system. U act like it will keep u from running 12's or whatever u want, it won't. So what it doesn't have dual exhaust, if u want it that much put it on, there are dudes here with it. Some of the 700R4's (87-92) and some of the rears (Borg Warner 9 bolt with 3.27's) are better than u think on these cars also, there are guys here running 11's and 12's with them already.

------------------
89 RS

Looking For:
87 IROC-Z28 350 TPI

[This message has been edited by IROCZTWENTYGR8 (edited May 14, 2001).]

 

Those were some funny posts guys. Just slap a dual exhaust on the good ole car there, eh? Obviously you have never been under a third gen. ROFL.

Fox bodies can be found day and night at Track racing and Road courses around here, maybe your just not noticing the cars...

My lack of experience? listen here son, I've been working on these TPI motors for 4 years, I learned everything I needed to know doing my engine swap (305->350). Basicly, you are saying it is a great system, but you are neither telling me what pionts of mine were incoorect, or stating any pionts of your own...

Sounds to me like you just like to hear yourself talk more than to contribute anything of any relevance.

What's my piont? Unless you are an under educated peon, you see my piont. The third gen has more flaws when it comes to a drag car than does the Fox Body right out of the Factory....which is WHAT THIS POST WAS ALL ABOUT in case you forgot! All of your delicate ego's concerning those Mustangs must mean you've gotten your *** 'es cleaned by them many times...but then again, your Fbody has what advantages? Oh, nobody has compiled a list yet...

Please Wake me up when you do.

 

If you've been doing this for 4 years and get a car to break into the 14's, then you've been doing it wrong. That's all there is to it. I am not a master mechanic, and don't claim to have years of exeperience, but if I had $6,000, I could toss it in the general direction of my TBI, and make it break into the 14's, without a problem. We have a guy in our club who has about that much in his car (88 Iroc) and runs 12's all motor. We are talking about a car that someone has put some effort into making fast. He's not a check book racer, he know's what the hell he's doing. The only reason I posted to this thread is to let you know that it can be done and that you can't just throw money at car and expect it to be fast. It requires some work and tuning. Where do you live? Do you have any dyno/tuning shops in your area. Perhaps they can help you out. I know someone who modded their car up and spent about $7000-$8000 on thier LT-1 and it wasn't any faster than a stock LS-1, and the only problem he had was that when he installed his cam, he put like two spaces too far advanced, so it ran fine, just lacked power. Maybe this is the issue you're having. And selling that car for $4200. If I had the car I would ****** it up. Instead of criticizing the car, take a step back and look at from another angle. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH WHAT YOU DID. It is just that simple. I'm super-duper impressed with your Grand National, but it's your attitude that is keeping the 3rd gen from going fast, not the car. BTW, you state that the really fast 3rd gen's are nothing more than a shell over larger chevy parts. Duh! Look at all the really fast Nova's and even the really really fast Ford's. They aren't using their original 302's or their original 327's, and if they are, they are sprayed or SC'd. Your arguement applies to every car on the road.

Okay, talk about drag racing all you want, but at the end of the day, I'll be DRIVING my third-gen home and be comfortable doing it, I won't have a bunch of annoying squeaks and rattles, and I'll have a few extra bucks in my wallet knowing my money was well spent.

 

I think the main reason we attacked you was that you referred to the 3rd gen F-body as a "hunk of ****". We also attacked you because you've insulted the very car that we love, not with facts, but with name calling. No one is disputing that the vette is faster, or handles better, but we are talking about apples and oranges here.

Next, you talk about Mustangs being better. Sure, their 5.0 is better than our 5.0, but if Ford had half a brain, they'd have added more cubic inches. You want our advantages over the Mustang, here goes...

1. Cubic Inches
2. Better built
3. Camaro not built off of an old Cutlass (as the Fox-body mustang has it's roots in the Fairmont)
4. Handle better
5. We don't have an escort/tempo interior
6. We don't look like an Escort EXP

would you like me to carry on?

I'd like to conclude by saying you don't know everything when it comes to these cars, or else your friend's car would be faster. FACT: The 88 Iroc L98 is faster than 15.1 straight out of the box. That means that with you at the helm of this little modding project, you made it SLOWER than when it started, or else you can't drive, your choice. I think that you need to check YOUR ego at the door, remove your head from your A$$, and attepmt to take it to someone who knows what the heck they're doing.

Just a thought

Yours truly,

Chris Payne

 

hahaha.


Want a list of Advantages of the Fbody ?

1. SBC - You really think the 5.0 has a bigger aftermarket than the SBC ? The reason Summit has a Ford and mopar section, is because the entire rest of the magazine is for the SBC.

2. Areodynamics. The 3rd gen camaros and firebirds Are some of the best areodynamic prouction cars ever, Look at all the land speed, Essentially stock Bodied Fbody's.

3. Versatility. Drag, Autox, Rallye, Road Race, and All you had to Do was adjust the shocks and Change tires.

4. Inexpensive. I can get Almost any stock part for my car from 100$ to free, If I look hard enough.

5. Looks. 5.0's can Look okay, but Thirdgens are some of the best looking cars on the road, IMO. Of course, that is a matter of personal preferance, But every Time im at the street Races, each 5.0 Is "just another 5.0" No matter how fast it is, Noone Cares.

6. Build Quality. 5.0's are plastic cars, They Fall Apart. The interior is trash. Duh, Its another ford...

7. Reliability. You ever tried to kill a 305?


8. Last of all, the Fbody was Not Designed for Women!

Now Go away, We Don't Disagree that the Fox body is a Good platform For speed, Where we Disagree is that the Fbody is a Horrible One.

There are 7000 People on this board who have had More success With their Fbody's than Your Stupid a s s, Wich Only goes to Show, that a Car is only as Fast as its driver.

What platform are you going to Turn Too, when Your 5.0 Cant seem to break out of the 15's ? Specially a heavy *** AOD vert, There is a Combo Meant For speed.

Start blaming all the things we have named here, and Look For a Turbo eclipse ?

Buy a 5.0, Is like buying a Cheap Tool, It may get the Job Done initially, For less Cost. But In the end You will regret Not having spend the extra Time and Money, To get the quality part.



------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

Exactly, cool posts guys.

What do u mean no1 is comparing what u are saying, ALL of these posts are, u just aren't answering and keep BSing about the same things. Third Gens Are Better Cars. They do everything u could want and are even best at certain things. U haven't said anything against what I and some others have said. They are the cars (not M*****g's) that won best handing to more expensive cars and make better lower RPM TQ (TPI) (better than M*****g's) then others cars also.

So what they don't have dual exhaust, what does it matter, put it on, others have. The single system is proven to work good too. What times do u want to run anyway??

------------------
89 RS

Looking For:
87 IROC-Z28 350 TPI



[This message has been edited by IROCZTWENTYGR8 (edited May 15, 2001).]

 

I'm sorry guys, but SlowIroc is not the only guy with an F-body that still doesn't perform after dumping a lot of cash into it. Just look at the Magnum TPI, Next Gen's car, my car, which would get smoked by a stock 5.0, and numerous other TPI cars that can't seem to perform like they 'should'. I guess it must be the the TPI system's inherint inability to respond to modifications, large or small. Just think of what Magnum TPI would do with a Mini Ram or Super Ram or even a single plane w/ a 650. Seriously people, I like third gens, too, but you have to analyze the TPI from a neutral perspective. You talk about how good the low end torque of the long-runner system is, but from where I look at it, all this 'awesome' low end torque just results in very poor 60ft times. Maybe GM should've put the TPI 350 in a Silverado?

 

GASP! Oh no, wait wait wait, don't you understand, a ton of low end torque is superior for drag racing. It's great when you can't get the power to the ground, break an axle, blow apart a posi, or smoke the clutch right off the line! That's how a car runs down the track fast.

My personal Iroc, you little children, run's 14.4's now. However, I found a few things out in how I did that. I no longer use Stock OEM gaskets which WILL leak air. I'm now using foam backed rubber, much like that found on table tennis paddles, because I can crush the material down to the piont where you can't even see the gasket any longer, but just a joint line. That alone was worth 2 tenths! However, your right, TPI is a great system...for breaking parts, pulling tree trunks out of the ground, and smoking tires, but it's a flying hunk of **** at the track.

Oh well, some people will never get it, instead they will slap the biggest blower or plate systems they can find on their cars, simply to correct the breathing problems they turn a blind eye too. Sometimes they address it with larger runners, or a better baseplate, but instead of going for a real intake, they prefer just to slap a blower on because it requires less thought. This is why I'm not even remotely impressed when you guys talk about blown 305 or 350 in the 10's and 11's. Hell, I could build a jet engine into the back of my car, and then claim I have a really fast Third Gen, even though I'm still using a stock motored setup.

1. SBC - You really think the 5.0 has a bigger aftermarket than the SBC ? The reason Summit has a Ford and mopar section, is because the entire rest of the magazine is for the SBC.

Oh that eplains the tires, 4x4 equipment, and all the ford stuff in the pages of the magazine. Thanks...I suppose you just accidently looked over all of that.

2. Areodynamics. The 3rd gen camaros and firebirds Are some of the best areodynamic prouction cars ever, Look at all the land speed, Essentially stock Bodied Fbody's.

Are you building a 300 MPH top speed machine or a car that will look great at the race track? If it's the 300 MPH machine...lol...I will enjoy hearing about your ride quality and all of the other things you claim.

3. Versatility. Drag, Autox, Rallye, Road Race, and All you had to Do was adjust the shocks and Change tires.

Obviously this isn't true. The Torque Arm rear might be fine for AutoX and Road Racing, but not for Drag racing. The heavy weight to the car hurts it's cornering abilities ultimately, and a modified MacPherson Front Suspension is inferior, but I suppose that would be break even because the MudStain has them too. However, the Vette

4. Inexpensive. I can get Almost any stock part for my car from 100$ to free, If I look hard enough.

Wow, a stock part for $100! I'm inpressed, but that means you will never be any faster than stock! Hell I can find headers for a five liter Mustang for $100, lol.

5. Looks. 5.0's can Look okay, but Thirdgens are some of the best looking cars on the road, IMO. Of course, that is a matter of personal preferance, But every Time im at the street Races, each 5.0 Is "just another 5.0" No matter how fast it is, Noone Cares.

I'll remember that when I see you explaining to your girl why I spanked the **** out of you at the last stop light, and just play it off like "Another 5.0, who cares?"

6. Build Quality. 5.0's are plastic cars, They Fall Apart. The interior is trash. Duh, Its another ford...

Interior...Okay, gauages from the 60's in the 82-90 cars, poor rear seating room, poor head clearance, dash pads that crack under sunlight, leather seats that crack if you look at them wrong, power seats that love to stop working for no reason, a big F'in hump down the center of the car...(Ever try to sit on that thing? OUCH!) Doors that are so long the pins never last for too long, poor heater/cooling controls.

7. Reliability. You ever tried to kill a 305?

Yup, and guess what, that's why I had to put the 350 in. I've talked to several guys on this board in the past who have lost rings, spun bearings, and even burnt through piston tops on 305's...they are no more relible than anything else, and on top of it, the TPI system strapped to them is a maintence hog in itself. What, like 6 different Relays, a wiring harness that rests on that hot *** motor...

8. Last of all, the Fbody was Not Designed for Women!

Oh, well if your gay I suppose that's cool. Unfortunately, I like driving a car that the hot *** woman next to me likes being seen in.

"What platform are you going to Turn Too, when Your 5.0 Cant seem to break out of the 15's ? Specially a heavy *** AOD vert, There is a Combo Meant For speed."

It ran 14.2's all last summer....not bad for a heavy *** AOD vert with about $300 worth of simple mods, and stock gears.

"So what they don't have dual exhaust, what does it matter, put it on, others have. The single system is proven to work good too. What times do u want to run anyway??"

Gee, I guess you suffer from the same problem so many people here seem to in not realizing the importance of breathing room. The single exhuast works fine, in power added cars, where the motor has positive pressure to push the air out instead of dealing with greater pumping loses. The last sentence is just a sign of defeat, as you beleive that there is a practical limit to how fast one should go, in an excuse to justify whatever you may have spoken about before.

"Seriously people, I like third gens, too, but you have to analyze the TPI from a neutral perspective. You talk about how good the low end torque of the long-runner system is, but from where I look at it, all this 'awesome' low end torque just results in very poor 60ft times. "

Nobody is willing to be neutral because it would hurt their ego's. Instead they talk about low end torque, and much like you, the ENTIRE racing community moved way past low end torque in the 60's...some people are a little slow to catch up I suppose.
Why do you think factory's put a huge effort into designing high rise intakes, better flowing heads, and large running gears from the factory. Not to flow more air, to make more upper RPM horsepower, I'm sure.


[This message has been edited by Slow Iroc (edited May 15, 2001).]

 

If you are looking for impartiality, look no further. I don't know what else you guys want me to do. I have tossed specifics, asked questions and got no answers, blah, blah, blah. I'm tired of this bloody post, and quite frankly it annoys the **** out of me. So I'm now gonna vent and y'all have to deal with it or skip!
You would not believe how many guys feel that just b/c they bolt on a part they are done. This is what separated the men from the boys with carbs and it still holds true today. I repeatedly asked for Diacom readings - nothing. How did you burn chips for this car without knowing what is going on? Did you pull runs after swapping parts back and forth? I mean c'mon, I see no honest effort to correct your alleged problem. What gives?
Best bang for the buck? Go spend a day at a dyno. Give me the "slow POS" for a day of dyno tuning and I'll hand you a seeming miracle.
TPI sucks? It sucks about as much as a dual quad tunnel ram. You just need some patience to tune it. Nothing in this life is easy.
SI, you'll have a faster fox-body than most of our thirdgens for less money? I say it is possible, especially if you know your way around the Fox chassis. Do you? Or you can just use your trial with the f-bod as a gauge, you'll feel better. I can list a litany of cars I'd run against your little fox-body, instead I'll give you something easier, you wanna try Vader's Impala? You know the convertible is heavy as hell and it has a ****ty auto.
On the TPI induction leaking. Say what? that's like saying there is air leaking in from the head. Do you guys use gaskets???


Now for my fun...

And some of us just can't make up our minds. It may be the ADD.

The first is an opinion that is in no way based on fact. Personally I think the Camaros look like a POS stretched Geo.
As for the second, excuses? Who has made excuses? BTW what are you planning on putting on? What are your goals?

Please o please qualify these 'bold' statements. You respect what? You don't even know what his goals are. If he wants 9 sec. n/a time slips, he can't do it with TPI, there is nothing to respect there except practicality. If however he wants to break into the 14s than all you respect is ignorance. TPI inefficient? In what regard? It is a very effective design. (what is unefficient? )

1) You are not up on fluid dynamics are you? Do you understand the concepts the TPI is designed around? Maybe not. Gaskets anyone? I've had my TPI up over 6,000 RPM, my TPI allowed me to operate my motor up there. What the hell are you trying to say?

2) Dude, can you share what you are smokin'? Really it must be some really good ****. Have you even ever torn apart a 5.0 Ford FI engine? How many turns do they take do you know?!? One 180º turn to hit the runner, one sharp 90º turn to start the drop down and then another turn between 60º-75º(I'm making an educated guess) for port entry. TPI has one 90º for runner entry and then a long 180º turn going to port entry. And spacer? What frickin' spacer. If there was one stock they didn't pop one on my Cobra, and that I have a hard time swallowing. Take a peek:
http://edelbrock.com/automotive/auto...821_plenum.jpg

3) Here I am, I can comfortably say none of these cars were made for drag racing. You want a drag car, learn how to fiberglass, learn how to weld, learn how to drive, and above all learn how to build a bloody engine.

4) I think the reason most of those Yenko engines stay in the engine bay is the same reason those Yenko cars have their ***** parked year 'round in the garage. You didn't do too well in debate did you?

Sure it is B, wanna try me?

Four years?!? All your experience comes from ONE engine swap?!?! Are you fukin' kidding me?!? Listen here 'son' if you were not an uneducated chimp swinging from vine to vine to work, you may have already compiled a list from the entirety of this board. Are you telling me you only spend your time in this thread? (Look who the hell is talkn' huh?) I've been working on this specific platform for over a decade. Y'know what I've learned? To work on everything but the engine first. You dig? No? There is your problem 'son'. My delicate ego concerning Mustangs?!? Are you kidding me? Hell anyone want to buy a '95 SN95 Cobra? My ego can't handle it. Last year of the 5.0 y'know! Collectable. Under 50,000 miles. Yea right. Here, wake up... try using that search thing on our board, you may learn a thing or two.

Er, what about the 351 engines?

I'm not familiar with Nextgen's car or yours, but Magnum was a rushed bum job. My grandma could do better with a torch and dynamite. That is exactly the way you don't build a car. Bad 60' times? What do you consider good?I like to think I have a good knack of seeing both sides to issues, it's complimentary to my job, however you can not see it from a wholly neutral perspective, you want to go faster don't you?

Ok, fun time is over, I needed to stretch the fingers as well as take a break from all this bloody reading, excuse the shortness and misspellings I'm too lazy to fix 'em now.


Edit: Tried to fix the pic - can't do it, if anyone can cut and paste to their site and post? Txs.
------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson


[This message has been edited by Red Devil (edited May 16, 2001).]

 

I'd like to swap my driveline & wheels into a G-body so I can carry passengers,and use the trunk.

 

Slow Iroc, I'm a little confused over what you're arguing - TPI is worse than Ford EFI or the thirdgen platform is worse than the thirdgen mustang platform?

Every mustang article I've read featuring a fast 5.0 HAS forced induction and/or lots of new internal parts. That's not any different from tossing in a completely new engine - that IS tossing in a completely new engine...most fast 5.0's at least get the beloved trick flows and a new crank...

forced induction IS the best way to go fast - you're talking about how getting a 5.0 is an easy road to speed and then condemning how forced induction is a contemptuous "shortcut" to mask the "shortcomings" of tpi - all while bragging about the GN you built that has, what, that's right forced induction! If you want a fast N/A car and don't care about economy - get a big block! The argument had NEVER been which car is a better dragster but which is a better street performer.

Red Devil is absolutely right about the last thing to touch being the engine - there's tons of et tied up in the tc, transmission, rear, and a number of other minor tweaks including prom burning - which is a much more an art than a science and takes years of practice to get good...if you find a good prom burner hang on to them!

I absolutely agree that if you're building a dedicated dragster that the mustang is the better platform. But for a street car, either can be built to perform in a straight line and different people prefer different things with regard to other aspects...

Low end torque is FUN - high end torque and power is only felt when you're ON THE HIGH END - unless you're racing the car drives like a honda. with forced induction on a tpi, you get the best of both worlds...sheesh

 

How about if you investigate what a stock short block 87-93 Mustang will do with an Edelbrock Performer RPM or TickFlow Track Heat intake, a pair of trickflow heads, and a cam. Keep the stock gears, stock convertor, and stock exhuast.

Now compare that do doing a pair of trickflows on a TPI motor, a baseplate with ISN'T sold at Summit (hummmmm what was the aftermarket arguement for the SBC again?), but let's say an Edelbrock Base, SLP Runners, and the cam of your choice. Stock gears, that are close to that of the Mustang's stock gears... (Anything from 2.73 to 3.27 or 3.23 would be acceptable as long as the stang had either the 2.73's or 3.08's) and the stock convertor of the 700R4.

Results? Well, be sure to bring your hanky with you to wipe up the tears.

I used those TPI parts because well, they can be found at Summit, with exception to the baseplate.

On the issue of forced induction, if you don't know of a Mustang in the 11's or 10's without a blower or nitrous, you aren't looking around nearly enough. I don't live on a large street mind you, but I have 2 Mustang's (1990 GT, and an 92 NotchBack), the GT ran an 11.28 in front of me on the motor and a 10.31 on a 100 horse spray of nitrous run. The Notchback ran 10.96 on the motor, he dosen't have a power adder yet. Both guys are emission legal (sniffer test), drove to the track, and run on 89 Octane. I can't name a single Third Gen, let alone on my street, but in my entire neighborhood that is anywhere close to that. No, you know what, forget the neighborhood...let's talk about at the track...nothing. One guy ran 11.8s with a 150 HP spray run, and that care had a mod list from hell! MiniRam, AFR heads, Lingefelter bumpstick, 4.10's, 3200 RPM stall convertor, not sure what type of headers or exhuast, but the headers were coated (?) and the exhuast had one exit on each side (Crossflow) so it could have been anything, but it was a 3 inch'er whomever made it.

These are just axamples of the typical Mustang against the fastest Third Gen in my one little race track, let alone across the country!

Why do you think the 86-93 mustang is the 57' Chevy of the 90's and now into the coming years still!

 

You are a Jacka$$. Do you not have a life outside this post?

Obviously the guys around here that could help you get that car running right are not going to help you, likely due to your attitude. Some of us have already given you quality ideas about what to change and what to address with some tuning, and you dismiss these ideas as if they do not matter. Unbelieveable.

It is just like your questions about the TH200-4R swap. I could get you all the information you need to get it done, but I most assuredly will not. You do not deserve ANY help since YOU have annointed YOURSELF a mechanical and tuning god and should not need it. But wait, the car is still slow.........

Go away if you do not like the third gens. Go away if you do not want to spend the time TUNING the car so it performs correctly. Go away if you do not want to listen to us. We are sick of you, your questions, and your repulsive personality.

Dismissed.

 

Ummm..red devil, I was referring to the Fox body mustangs, and as far as I know, none of them rolled off the assembly line at dearborn (or wherever) with a 351 under the hood. Although, I'm not a Mustang expert, so I could be wrong. Thanks for acknowledging me in your rant though, that was top notch!

Carry on,

Chris

 

Slow Iroc, you talk about the fact that we can find any part for our cars at around $100, but still not be any faster than stock?

Hey, we could do that, and still be faster than the guy you helped blow $6000 and be SLOWER than stock. Why not address the issue that you are a poor engine builder and get on with it. You have yet address those claims.

Are you just trolling here? Is that the point of your posts on this board? If so, you got us pal, good job. Now go back to the Mustang boards and try and convice them you're a stellar engine builder......

Chris

 

The Mustang is a better car to build up than a Camaro? What a joke! I've come to the conclusion that in terms of build-up potential, the thirdgen f-bodies may be the greatest cars of all time.

 

Sure it is an opinion, all observations about looks are going to be opinion. However, I'm referring to the 93+ Firebirds and the 93-97 Camaros and it is not just my opinion that they look better, its the general consensus. Also, I'm the one who was making excuses when I was pointing out GM's mistakes on the 3rd gen platform. I no longer have any goals for the car except to sell it, but my original goal was to make horsepower with the TPI 350. I then figured out that all I was going to do is spin the tires. Sure, torque may be fun on the street, but on the track, you can keep your wheelspin, **** poor 60fts, and high ETs, I'm bailing out before I end up dumping another grand into the POS and running 16s.

RRL98

 

Learn to drive - if you do sell that Formula - what shape is it in and how much do you want for it? I'll have 14's in less than a week and 12's or 13's by the end of summer

[This message has been edited by I ROCK (edited May 16, 2001).]

 

Yet once again, people saying the third gen is so great, without listing reasons or statements.

Well I think we should go to war with France....but don't ask me for reasons that I might think that, lol.

I think I have pounded the facts into enough of your heads now, that some of you will come off your "Third Gen is great" horse and look at things how they are a little more.

Hum...bad engine builder? Okay...I've take 6 tenths off of my personal Cars ET after putting in the 350, with nothing more then imaginative ideas. I'm sure I would have gotten those ideas had it not been for the fact that I know HOW engine should run, and the common problems with them...but I could be wrong. Besides I think one of the only reasons my Iroc is running the 14.4's (which is like a great feat or something, ROFL) is partially due to the fact I used light weight rods and pistons, and ported the heads before they even laid themselves on the motor.

However, I suppose my engine building talents leave something to be desired...and to the people you beleive that, I will enjoy asking you what your opinion is again out the end of the track from the window of the GN...whenever you get there, after your done smoking the tires.

 

Just a personal observation but you talk about how the small block chevy parts are limited. that is a ton of sh**, think about it dude a sbc is the cheepest engine in the world to rebuild becuz there are so many of them out there. The sbc is not the prob you don't understand the engine.

question: what is the most transplanted engine in a ford

answer: small block chevy

I know a ton of ford guys that have transplanted many chevy parts into a ford becuz they are better parts and made better.
I personally have never seen a chevy guy transplant a ford part other than a axle into his chevy