parks911

Tell me something.....


What is so special about the ZZ4 crate?

355HP at the flywheel, how much will that put at the rear wheels with a 700R4?


Is it worth the $3900.00 + S/H that Summit charges?



What is the difference between the ZZ4 & the 330HP 350 HO besides 25HP?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

From info available on www.sdpc2000.com :

ZZ4:
Horsepower : 355 hp @ 5,250 rpm
Torque : 405 ft/lbs @ 3500 rpm
Compression Ratio : 10.0 to 1
Block : Cast Iron 4-Bolt Main, 4.000" Bore
Crankshaft : Forged Steel, 3.480" Stroke
Heads, Chamber Size : Aluminum, 58cc Chamber
Valves (I/E) : 1.940"/1.500"
Camshaft, Lift (I/E) : Hydraulic Roller, 0.474"/0.510"
Dur. @ 0.050" (I/E) : 208/221 degrees
Intake : Aluminum Dual Plane

What that doesn't say, but is included: GMPP HEI distributor, damper & flexplate, hypereutectic pistons, decent valve springs & retainers. Intake manifold is standard pattern.

350 HO:
Horsepower : 330 hp @ 5,000 rpm
Torque : 380 ft/lbs @ 3500 rpm
Compression Ratio : 9.1 to 1
Block : Cast Iron 4-bolt, 4.000" Bore
Crankshaft : Cast Nodular, 3.480" Stroke
Heads, Chamber Size : Vortec Cast Iron, 64cc Chamber
Valves (I/E) : 1.940"/1.500"
Camshaft, Lift (I/E) : 0.435"/0.460" Hydraulic
Dur. @ 0.050" (I/E) : 212/222 degrees
Intake : Not Included

Flat tappet cam, cast pistons, valve lift can't be increased much w/o replacing spring/retainers & machining guides, press-in rocker studs, no distributor, no damper, no flexplate, no intake (it's a long block w/tin). Special pattern intake manifold required (choices more limited).

Either one can be improved, but you'll hit the limit of the HO before you will the ZZ4.

Of course, Vortec defenders will now chime in...

Stekman

Ahh but five7, what is there to defend on the 350 HO as far as the Vortecs go? GM can't go putting anything overly aggressive under there because of the factory lift issue. I'm willing to bet that the ZZ4 heads can take just a bit more (evident in the cam selection). That and the fact that the ZZ4 is a hydra roller whereas the 350 HO is the flat tappet cam, which in itself says that the ZZ4 has te better valve train all around.

Being an owner of the Vortec heads, I still agree. You will physically max out the 330 HO before the ZZ4. Heads and bottom end are the main factors.

So the thing as far as I see it is this (pros and cons):

ZZ4:
Better cam (hydraulic roller)
Better valve springs (LT4 springs)
Aluminum "113 casting" heads
Better internals
It's pretty much "complete"

330 HO
Better factory heads, need work to be "good"

Other than that, the ZZ4 is the all around hotter package.

parks911

OK but the ZZ4 is 3900 bucks, the 350 HO is 2400 buck. I can see that the ZZ4 is the better engine but is it worth it?


That is a $1500.00 difference without shipping.

Would my TBI intake or a aftermarket TBI intake bolt to the ZZ$ without any stress? or would I have to get the TBI adapter?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Forgot to mention the ZZ4 comes with a water pump (standard rotation).

To get the ZZ4 running, add carb, exhaust, accessories. If you add up what the ZZ4 comes with that you'd have to buy to get the HO running (intake, $170, flexplate, $40, damper, $80, distributor, $160, water pump, $35), the ZZ4 is still more than a grand higher in price. Installed in the same vehicle, the ZZ4 will have a little more than the 25 HP advantage because of its lighter weight (aluminum heads).

What you have to decide is if the extra money is worth it to you. And, it would be easier to get a TPI ZZ4 through emissions inspection (it's a "Vette engine" - wink, wink - I've seen that done here in Colorado) than it would be to get the HO through (still waiting for someone to say they've gotten an HO through a strict inspection such as Colorado or California).

parks911

I guess I'm going to have to save a few more pennies & crush a couple more aluminum cans.

Nobody has said about what rage of HP that ZZ4 will put at my back wheels?

It is going to be joined to a 700R4 (will it handle the power?) and a posi unit with 3.73 gears.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

These ratings are flywheel gross - meaning the engine isn't powering any accessories (water pump, alternator, fan, etc.), and typically use long-tube headers, velocity stack on the carb, etc. Flywheel net will lower that by including the water pump, alternator, fan (unless electric), air cleaner, and exhaust as installed in the car. For the "HO 350 Camaro Conversion Kit" that GM used to sell, which used the ZZ4 as the base, the reported power was in the 300 range - and that included using cast iron exhaust manifolds instead of headers, a CC q-jet instead of a 650 Holley, and dual-snorkel air cleaner instead of velocity stack. That kit was only emissions certified with an automatic transmission, by the way.

We'd need to know more about how you would install the engine - what induction, what exhaust, etc. Your TH700 should probably be treated to a performance freshening to insure it would handle the power. I'd go with a higher stall converter as well, something in the 2500 range minimum.

parks911

Induction will probally be stock. I was hoping to keep the stock TBI system & maybe find a dual snorkel air cleaner for it.

Exaust would be headers going into 3" pipes & out 5" tips. Smog control is not a factor here yet, so I'm currently running straight pipes & hoping to keep it like that.

The front end will consist of the PS, Alt, AC. I'm going to take the nasty smog pump off. The fan is electric.


I was going to rebuild the 700R4 & have it kitted. But I think for about the same price, I can pick up a TCI 700R4 complete & ready to roll with the power.


What else can be done to the ZZ4 to boost the HP ratings up?



Will the ZZ4 be able to handle a periodic shot of 150 Nitrous?


Yes I saw the movie Fast & the Furious & still am smart enough to say nitrous instead of NAWZ. The last I knew, NOS was just a manufactorer of Nitrous systems. So why is it NAWZ?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

For the same reason the "SIN" button on the calculator is called the "sin" button instead of the "sine" button...

Power adders and hypereutectic pistons are generally not a recommended marriage. But, keep the shot reasonable, keep it rich, control detonation, and you probably won't have a problem.

Putting a TBI on a ZZ4 would require major mods. Pretty much covered on the TBI forum (because custom PROM tuning is one of the big items - doesn't much matter what engine you're talking about, you need to learn PROM tuning).

If you're going to get a turn-key TH700, consider talking to Dana at Probuilt. He frequents the Transmission/Drivetrain forum.

92camarors5spd

i have a 70 chevelle with the zz4 and it runs high 12s. if i wanted
i could get 500hp with it to the ground if i did a intake and cam swap. there was an article about that in a magazine a while back.

why would you even think of putting the tbi on an engine? just go carb.

VILeninDM

Hey guys,

I was also looking at both of those engines (and 350 HO deluxe, which is same thing, but more complete).

couple of questions:
1. ZZ4 small block. Is it identical to LT1? I was talking to some people about buying a clutch and they asked me if I had LT1 or LS1. I know LS1 is different, but now I am not sure if the clutch that they say fits LT1, would fit a crate engine.

2. Does it make sense economically to buy long block ZZ4 equavalient (if they even have that) instead of a complete package? If I find parts here and there afterwards, I am not sure it I'd win anything (uncle works at GM, so I would get discount on individual GM parts, but not assembled engines). I don't mind tons of extra time and questions while putting everything together.

3. What carb would go well with this engine? I was thinking Holley 750cfm.

4. Also don't know much about this stuff, so please keep the flames down. But it seems kinda weird that tq is higher than hp and peaks at 3,500rpm.

Would it make sense to shift peak torque into higher rpms to raise high end hp and still keep the engine streetable (reasoning, daily driver will never use more than 120hp anyway, if even that much, so loosing some low end torque should be a big deal for a 350).

If everything I've said so far seems like I reasonable, how would you do it? or would you not start with ZZ4 to begin with?


I am still working on body, tranny and rear end so i was not planning to read about engines for a while, but this post seemed like a good place of information

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Since you say you don't know too much about this stuff, I'll try to take it easy.

The ZZ4 is completely different from the HO - with the possible exception of the block casting (which I'm not sure about). Heads, cam, crank, pistons - they're all different between the ZZ4 and 350 HO.

The HO Deluxe is only more complete than the ZZ4 in that it has a carb.

The LT1 is a completely different animal.

A 750 carb would work nicely on either the ZZ4 or HO.

If I was considering a ZZ4, I don't think I'd try to re-engineer it a whole bunch. Perhaps a cam and/or rocker change, perhaps some head porting, but that's about it.

VILeninDM

Thanks,

So if I get this right GM crate engines are all Gen I SBC. LT1 is Gen II, and LS1 Gen III?

I through 350 HO Deluxe was a more complete version of 350 HO, not ZZ4? It costs almost the same as the ZZ4? I am curious why GM went with 650 (or 600 cfm) carb on 350 HO deluxe and got 330hp. Bigger carb would increase than number without changing much else, right?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The 350 HO Deluxe is a more complete version of the 350 HO, correct. All I was saying is the ZZ4 comes with more "stuff" than the 350 HO, so that about all the ZZ4 doesn't have that the Deluxe does is the carb (and PCV valve & hose...).

650 CFM is enough to feed a 100% VE 350 to about 6400 RPMs. That's more than the ZZ4 or 350 HO will "need". However, the general real-world observation is a slightly larger carb on a dual-plane intake will help a little.

parks911

Well at least you bursted my bubble before I dished out the 4 grand for that ZZ4.

I think I'm going to get a 350 block & go from there. It the long run it would be cheaper for me to do it & I'm sure you guys will help me pick some good combinations to produce some power.

I guess I'll go back to the home page & look at the techy info to see some casting numbers for a 91 350 block preferably a 4 bolt main.

Because I want the car to appear stock. And everyone and there grandmother knows that a 91 car would most likely not have a carb.

I also beleive that the same performance can be done with a TBI. I want to work with it instead of chicken out & run for the carb.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

"...appearing stock" really has limited value. A TBI with the air cleaner installed looks pretty much like a carb with the air cleaner installed.

This coming from a guy who regularly says, "Work what you've got," and, "Don't automatically just revert to old-school, stay EFI."

TBI was good enough for Holley and others to base stand-alone EFI on it. But, the factory never fully expoited what they had. Fixing the factory will be more expensive for less power than carb, but better economy. To say nothing of tuning by computer. Aftermarket EFI is pretty expensive.

And in the last 3 years or so, I've been able to say it's "just" a 305 all of once - well, maybe it was twice. But, even then, they weren't impressed.

As for the ZZ4:

You can build a 350 for less money than you'd spend on the ZZ4. But, it won't have a warranty. And, it won't be "new" (for what that's worth). It probably won't have a steel crank or PM rods or roller cam (depending upon the core you start with, of course). The typical 350 core has terrible heads, the ZZ4's are a pretty good starting point.

A ZZ4 is a consistent daydream for me. It has several things that out-prioritize it, as you might imagine, even while daydreaming.

89 Iroc Z

Here’s what I did if you are looking for a lower price alternative to a ZZ4. I bought this engine http://www.paceparts.com/index.asp?P...D&ProdID=42937 at a local dealer for a little over $1500. It has the same pistons and rods as a ZZ4. I took off the crap heads and sold them on ebay for $300. I then bought a set of ZZ4 heads for $500 and a ZZ4 cam for $100 off ebay. That way I made myself a ZZ4 (minus the 4 bolt main and forged crank) for under $2000.

2KTA--89Formula

I was looking into getting the 330HO and ran across this <which I may very well get instead!>:
http://www.blueprintengines.com/star...specs&sye_id=9
I still need to get other specs, such as torque, and where the power occurs in the RPM band and such......whether or not it comes with a pan, etc.... I'll post again when I find out the info. The pros of this motor over the 330HO are better pistons, crank, more compression <well, slightly> more power, and it comes with an intake. Not to mention that it is dyno tested and comes with a generous warranty. Plus, atleast for me, shipping is $75 cheaper than Summit, Jegs, or Scoggin Dickey. When I get more info I will post it.

VILeninDM

That's a very interesting alternative. The only things I am not sure about is the capitalized sentense that says it will not work with EGR. What's up with that?

Reasons I would ask is: 1) I thought EGR helps with emissions and milage at part throttle and 2) If emissions laws in your state would ever change, would you have to buy a different engine?

About ZZ4, can someone explain the logic behind its torque curve? I've read things here and there (including tech articles) and it seems that for performance engine, you would want the torque somewhat to the right of 3500 rpm mark. Or would shifting it completely kill low end?

KnightWarrior

Does anyone remember back in the late 80's GM offered a 50-state, smog legal ZZ4 swap kitt for third gens. It cam with th dual snorkel airbox, a new chip to run the carburator and reused the 305's distributer. It also cam with an electric fuel pump to replace the mechanical one with. Does anyone have this set-up?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The aluminum heads don't have the exhaust "cross-over" passages from which the factory tapped exhaust for the EGR valve. Apparently, with the kit when first offered, they had a tube that went from the exhaust manifold up to the (otherwise unused) hot air choke boss to feed the EGR valve. In later versions of the kit, they eliminated that because the ZZ4 cam had enough overlap to keep NOx emissions down.

2new2funny

Where did you find this info about the EGR?
I just installed a zz4 cam that says on the package "for offroad use"- can't be because it's emissions friendly....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Kit info: http://www.gmgoodwrench.com//perfpar...on=ce&cat=9274

It was emissions-legal only for the vehicles specified. And only if installed completely. The individual components, including the cam, were not certified replacements.

The EGR info cam from a magazine article link. Haven't seen it for awhile, though.

2new2funny

Thanks, five7 and thanks for the link.
I would love to have read the magazine article (it's the little things that keep me going )

2KTA--89Formula

For any that were interested in the info, I contacted Blueprint Crate Engines and here are the specs that are not listed on their website:
385HP @ 5700, 405 FT/Lbs @ 4200, 6000 Redline
Cam is 224/230, .480/.486
Comes complete w/pan, valve covers, timing cover, dual plane intake, dyno tested. Probably not emissions legal, but if that isn't a concern then this is a pretty affordable starting package.