StealthElephant

I started the engine up for the first time and the engine was knocking/clacking like a ****. I shut it off and I checked the valvetrain, it was dry.

I unscrewed the oil filter, and oil came gushing out as soon as I loosened it.

What could be the problem? I mean, if the filter was full then the pump is obvously working right? Could I have screwed the oil filter mount on incorrectly?

sellmanb

just out of curiosity, why did you unscrew the oil filter before the oil drain plug? lol.

92 zzz28

This is a new engine I assume. Did you prime it? Sometimes engines make some noise when they are first started esspecially when they are dry until the oil gets to everything. Should only last 2-3 seconds.

StealthElephant

I primed the engine. This was longer than 2 seconds. I ran the motor long enough to go from the driver seat, to put my head into the engine bay, hear the noise, and run to shut it off.

I pulled the oil filter and saw it was full so I'm thinking that the oil pump is obviously pumping. I restarted and immediately stuck my head under the car, noise was coming from the oil pan as well, I shut it off.

I took a valve cover off, started the engine for about 10 seconds. No oil went anywhere, ( I was told oil should shoot out of the pushrods ) instead, only 6 of the 8 pushrods on the driver side were getting oil, and none of them were squirting, just barely a dribble out, I shut the engine off again.


Now the pickup clearance to the bottom of the pan was checked thoroughly. There is a good 1/3" from the pickup to the bottom of the pan, and it's aligned perfectly. The oil pan I used was a stock replacement. Side by side, the new pan I bought from summit was exactly the same as the one it was replacing, looked like the exact same stamp was used to make it.

The pickup was tack welded on. Now the pressure spring was not taken out. Could that be it? I mean, I was there when my buddy tacked it, like 1/10 a second, it was the slightest tac, and the pressure spring was 2 inches away from the location that was tacked. I can't imagine the heat warping the pump body with such a minute tac but I guess anythings possible. Thats the only decent possibilty I can think of right now.

RB83L69

Knocking/clacking could easily the crank hitting the oil pan.

You won't always see a bunch of oil shooting around everywhere on top of the heads. I wouldn't worry too much about that.

What did your oil pressure gauge read while this was going on?

StealthElephant

Apparently the sender is bad, because the guage worked before the rebuild, and now it's not. The gauge is just pegged now.

When I primed the engine the drill bogged down like normal when pressure started to build up. I did it exactly the same way as last time.

Before the rebuild the motor leaked and had metal in it, but I at least had oil pressure. Now with Another 1500$ invested in rebuilding it the right way, I can't get oil pressure. I'm starting to understand why people buy body kits and put wings on their cars as opposed building engines

RB83L69

If your gauge doesn't work, how do you know you don't have oil pressure?

Check the gauge wiring; get a sending unitif you need one; and try again. Get an actual reliable oil pressure reading before just assuming you don't have any. Should only take a few seconds of running to find out.

Turn the crank with your motor building crank turning tool, and see if it makes noise (like the crank hitting something or whatever) when not running.

kevinc

Not all people, just the ones that shouldn't be turning wrenches.

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Or driving

ede

what kevinc said, there are some people that shouldn't be allowed to touch a wrench. look around and you'll find a few of them here.

StealthElephant

Well I talked to my machine shop and the guy told me I probably didnt prime the engine long enough. I primed it again for like 3 minutes and the bottom end is quiet and I do have oil pressure. The rockers are still making alot of noise though. A decent of amount of clackity clack. Buddy of mine did the valve lash, did 1/2 turn after zero. Could they not be tight enough?

My machine shop said I definately could have heard some slight knock if the engine wasn't primed enough.

ede

the guy at the machine shop is blowning smoke up your ***. a SBC doesn't need primed, if you put oil in the pan the pump will prime on it's own.

ljnowell

hear, hear!

92 zzz28

Pull the valve covers off and start adjusting the valves yourself. You can find the procedure in a shop manual or just turn the crank nut by hand until the valves on each cylinder are closed and snug them up. I assume you have a hydraulic cam, if you have a solid cam you should adjust the valves to the lash indicated by the manufacturer. Not hard to do and if your clicky, clacky noise if from the rockers, that should clear it up...

StealthElephant

Not the pump, he said I probably didn't prime the engine long enough, and thats why it had some knock.

The rockers are all getting oil now, but they wont' shut the hell up. Windows up, doors closed I can hear the clackity clack clear as day. It's annoying as hell, don't know why it won't stop. They were lashed with the 2 step method. Set to zero lash then 3/4 turn. They are still being noisy as hell. The cars running fine, but the rockers are still making noise.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Adjust them with the engine running. Back off the nut till it starts making noise, slowly tighten back up till the noise goes away then slowly give it another quarter to half turn.

ede

priming a SBC is a waste of time, it'll fill with oil in about a second after it fires.

Red Devil

I hope you've checked to pan/dipstick in conjunction with this. As for priming... I've never seen a regular hand drill have enough power to move the oil much past the pump. The rockers ar apparently not adjusted correctly, re-do those.

StealthElephant

The valves were lashed to zero and then turned 1/2. Yet they are still making noise. Is hot lashing the only way to get them to shut up?

Red Devil

Did you lock them? Did you double check you friend's work before you started it up? I'd re-do it, either way should work, just don't go crazy on the lash down, but if you are still concerned about the oil pump, I'd do it loosley, hot and running. Also what rockers?

ploegi

Priming the oil pump is NEVER a waste of time. Starting your engine dry can be an expensive endeavor. I use a 1/2 inch variable speed drill for pump priming, and I can shoot oil across the garage from the pushrods. (yep, voice of experience, always remember to at least SET the valve covers before priming. Unless, of course, you enjoy mopping up oil....)

Adjust your valves with the engine running. Get the cool little clips that clip on( no ****....) to the rockers to prevent oil from spraying everywhere, they are cheap, and reusable. Back off adjusting nut untill you can hear the rocker clicking, tighten slowly till the noise goes away, then give them another 3/4 turn. The noise should then all be gone.

Have fun.

ede

only if you're stupid enough not to use assembly lube or have no knowledge or understanding of how a SBC oil system works

mnegovan

If the rockers are making noise then how are you supposed to start adjustment when the engine is running? I admit that I have never done this. I set my rockers according to the service manual directions. The cam needs to be in the right position to adjust half of the rockers, then moved 180 degrees to adjust the other half. You take out the lash and then turn in the nut according to the service manual specs. If you follow these instructions precisely, then you will have properly adjusted rockers. If you don't have the service manual, then get it. It is a valuable resource.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

You'd understand how it's done if you've done it

88IROK

ede, I personally have extensive knowledge of the oil system operation in a chevy engine and intensly disagree with your statement about no need to prime it.

You can use all the assembly lube you want but, that won't fill the oil passages in the block at all.

To properly prime a new engine, you must have a second person rotate the crankshaft while you run the primer.
This allows the lifters that are up in their bores (open valve) to come down in their bores in order toallow oil to fill the lifter and pushrod.

Tell any respectable engine builder that priming your new engine is a waste and see how quickly he starts laughing.

RB83L69

Go to a car assembly plant sometime and watch a car get built.

Then tell the factory about all that priming business being necessary, and watch them start laughing.

Millions of cars roll off of assembly lines every year all over the world, and work fine without it. There's no reason why a SBC or BBC motor, with its self-priming oil pump, needs that; especially if you just fill the filter with oil before putting it on. It's "placebo effect" for people who are panicky about incorrectly assembling something and not noticing it.

88IROK

With 350+ engines (300HP to 1000HP, NA) under my belt and less than 1% failure, I doubt that I'm concerned about having assembled something incorrectly.

After you go look at that factory assembly line, go visit their warranty claims division.

Or a dealership that repairs all of those assembly line engines.

No pissing contest here. Show me one iota of proof that priming is a waste of time or detrimental to proper break in.

Not priming on the other hand, bearings tell the true story!

RB83L69

Statistically, I'd be willing to bet that out of all motors that have ever been built, a greater percentage of all that have been "primed" have had bearing problems, than the percentage of those that haven't been "primed".

I'm talking about SBC and BBC here, not ones (Buick for example) where priming is absolutely essential. However, with ones like those and unlike like Chevy V8s (where the pump is submerged and therefore totally self-priming), you don't prime them with a drill, you do it by packing the pump with Vaseline.

ljnowell

I would rather fire the engine right away, then turn the crank over and over while trying to prime a pump. Why? Because by the time you get the distributor back in and the wires hooked up to fire the engine, the oil isnt where you want it anymore anyway. On top of that as your rotate the engine, you are taking the pre-lube off the cam and all othermoving parts.

Zed'er

This is where a mechanics stethiscope comes into play. They are quite cheap and will pay for themselves the first time you use it. Place the end of the stethiscope at the top of the valve spring near the top of the valve, where it contacts the rocker arm. This will isolate the sound coming from that valve only, and make it easier to adjust properly.
Of course, the engine must be running.

If that doesn't solve your valve lash problem, you may want to get a hold of a pushrod length checker.

88IROK

Disassemble any chevy engine and you'll see that the oil is still in most of the oil passages.
The pre-lube on the cam will not leave.

RB, it's not in an effort to get the oil pump to pick up oil, it's to pre-fill the block passages and lifters.

You have your way and you'll stick with it.
I have my way and people that spend $80,000 per engine seem to stick with what is proven. Not to mention engines that turn 6000+ rpm for a couple of hours at a time and live for years before being rebuilt.

ljnowell

Funny, I will admit that I have never built an 80K dollar engine. However, I have been around to see quite a few 7-15K dollar engines started and broke in. The only ones we ever primed were fords. None of the chevys. And the guy that I was with, my cousin, build a lot of race engines. Not your local 5k dollar crate style engines, big money race engines. He says that as long as you use assembly lube in the assembly, and plenty of it, there are no problems with a chevy engine. I doubt that these 80K dollar engines you are speaking of are SBC engines.

Chickenman35

Sorry, I have to disagree stongly here. While priming the oil pump is not generally necessary...it is vital to prime ( Pre-oil) the engine. That is if you run anything other than a Drag motor and you change the bearings every couple of runs.

One second for all of the oil passages to fill. BS. More like three or four with a completely dry block. Assembly lube is just that....ASSEMBLY lube. It is not designed to take the place of oil in a running engine. There are a lot of passages in the SBC and the mains are fed from the lifter galleries. That's a long way to go for the oil to feed the front main bearing for example. A lot more than one second.

Once the engine is fully primed and all the oil passgaes are full of oil, the oil does not just drain away...that's what the anti-drainback valve in the oil filter is for. The oil passages in the block remain full of oil after the engine is shut down , and oil pressure to the bearings is almost instantaneous when you restart the engine. Even after you change the oil and filter a significant amount of oil remains in the oil passages. Even then it is recommended that you fill the oil filter with oil before installing it to lessen the " air gulp" that the bearings will receive after an oil change.

A rebuilt engine with NO oil is a whole different story. PRIME THE ENGINE. I've never heard of any Professional engine builder claiming otherwise, those that do have to make you wonder why?

EDIT: If everything is 100% correct and the engine fires right away then you're probably fine. But what happens if something goes wrong? What if the engine doesn't fire right away. Yeah...like that never happens to us right? So now you have the starter grinding away, while you're trying to figure out WTF is wrong...with no oil in the passages and it will take forever to get oil pressure that way. Meanwhile...say bye-bye to your assembly lube, cause it AIN"T designed to last that long. For the life of me I jsut don't understand ANYONE, Professional or not, who does not spend a few extra minutes and properly pre-oil the engine. It is bloody cheap insurance mates. And quite frankly, (no offense intended ) if my engine builder told me that pre-oiling was not necessary on my new engine...I would be looking for another engine builder. That's just MHO.

And as for GM Engine Plant procedures? Last time I was there ( in the 80's ) all of the engines were "spin tested" on a " Wet Line". Completed long block, no fluids, no oil pan and no pil pump. A quick connect oil feed line is attached where the oil pump resides, the engine is spun over by an electric motor. All the oil passages are filled with oil...oil pressures are checked...the oil is just allowed to fling off the crank and is collected in a trough. This procedure takes about 10 seconds with Robotics.

Once the engine has passed this test AND the engine block is now FILLED ( That would be Primed!! ) with oil then the oil pump and oil pan is bolted on and the pan is filled with oil.

EVERY engine mfg that I know of builds their engines this way.


If you want to be lazy or to take chances....then don't bother pre-oiling the new engine. If you run a TF Drag car and change bearings every couple of runs...then don't bother with pre-oiling the engine. You don't have the time.

If you like to do things right..and want your bearings to last a long time. Then pre-oil the new engine before starting.

Just my .02c

ljnowell

Wow good thing people are stepping and telling us how to do it now. I guess we were always lucky that our engines lasted 150-200K miles that we rebuilt. Everyone is going to disagree, but its all opinion. I havent primed a chevy engine in a long time, and probably never will again. Its a waste of time.

RB83L69

All opinion

Nothing but opinion

No facts need interfere

The mains are not fed from a lifter gallery; the bearings have their own gallery, on top of the cam.

Chickenman35

You are correct about the lifter gallery. My mistake. Was typing too fast. Should have said that it will take a LONG time for the lifters and front cam bearing to receive oil.

But it is an opinion...and I stand by it.

Chickenman35

Now don't be getting your knickers all in a knot. I'm sure that you've had great success with your methods. It's just when I offer advice to a forum such as this I do not assume that everyone is an EXPERT and I do not assume that EVERYTHING will go smoothly.

If you re-read my post you will see that I mention that if everything goes according to plan and the engine fires instantly, then you're probably OK.....but I like to make things as safe as possible. There-for I pre-oil and I recommend to pre-oil a new engine. Nothing is "idiot proof". The "pill" is only 90% effective and Condoms break....now there's a scary thought!! Just because you haven't had a problem, doesn't mean that some novice building his first engine is not going to have problems and toast his new engine.

Pre-oiling a new engine is the SAFEST way....I doubt that anyone would argue with that?

Chickenman35

Just to add " fuel" to the fire....i just got off the phone with a friend of mine who Autocrosses. He had a SBC built up for him by a trusted local Professional. Got the engine all ready to go...went to pre-oil the engine and guess what? Almost no oil pressure. Only 10 lbs max. Pump was dragging down the electric drill but nearly zippo for oil pressure. No external leaks so they pulled things apart.

Seems that someone at the shop had forgot to tighten the oil pump. Was only on finger tight. This is a "prime" ( pardon the pun ) example of why you should always pre-oil a new engine.

Gives you a chance to check over the small things. Make sure that all the rockers are getting oil ( particularily important with stamped steel OEM rockers ), that you have no external oil leaks and that pressures are correct before firing.

IMHO, pre-oiling an engine is never " A waste of time". That short time you save could end up costing you a hole in your wallet.

IMHO of course.

kevinc

This is similar to the argument over filling the filter w/ oil when doing an oil change. Some do, some don't. I do, and I also spin up my oil pump before firing a new engine.

May not be necessary, but can't possibly be harmful and doesn't cost anything but time.

ljnowell

Sorry to make it sound that way, I reread that, and I did sound kinda like an *******. I was just trying to convey the point that I have had many engines make it a long time, and never did that.

Air_Adam

IMO, thats all stuff you should check over before you go to fire the engine anyway, whether you prime the lube system or not.

Chickenman35

Of course...but this was an engine from {quote} " A trusted Professional "{/quote}. Someone we've all used for years.

The engine was all assembled, including the oil pan. It shouldn't have happened....and the engine builder was mighty embarassed.

In fact he ( the engine builder ) paid for all the gaskets and oil and refunded the money for the " engine assembly" It all worked out good in the end....but it never hurt's to be safe. Even Professionals can screw up.

And yeah....I do agree.... never trust anyone

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Since everyone's chiming in on this one, I'll tell you now, I always prime a rebuilt engine before starting AND fill the oil filter when I change oil. I've dealt with F#rds. Dodges and GM's, and I don't know which make actually requires it or not. But I know I'm not hurting anything by doing it.

Since I already have a drill and the priming tools, it only takes a couple of minutes. I've heard lifters clack temporarily when first started after an oil change, after a oil filter change w/o filling the oil filter first before installing. May not damage anything for that brief moment that the engine clacks, but I'm willing to bet it isn't helping it, that's for sure. So feel free to accuse me of being over-cautious!! lol

Red Devil

Let me prelude this by saying the following, yes I have prelubed motors, no I don’t always do it, no I have yet to have a problem, yes I have seen the same motors apart for inspection and have yet to see any discernable difference.

Also, sorry Chickenman, but you had the most descriptive explanation so I just used your post.

Sorry, but you really don’t want to wash away the assembly lube, it is designed to stick until the oil gets there. Don’t take my word for it, call the companies that make and use the stuff. Amsoil is so-so on discussion, but Red Line, if your lucky, will stay on the phone with you for a while. It's sort of like the MAF thing that we were doing a few years back, why not just ask the bloody manufacturer. The guy at Wells was/is a helluva guy!

Umm.. it’s not a literal thing there buddy, it’s not used for assembly purposes. Geez… Waaayyyy too many people believe that and it is just flat out plain wrong.

Yepper, that’s what it’s there for. Not one iota of a clue, thanks. Maybe you should go talk to some of the diesel mechanics and find out what the damn thing is really for. How exactly would oil drain out of our filters?!? Another very popular misconception. Now on certain V4's well... you really kind of need them there. Oh, and exactly who recommends the filter fill, why, and what do they recommend on the filters not as well positioned as the chevy’s? Where and why would there be an ‘air gulp’? Whatfor then is the bypass valve for?

Seen it. Big buck shop that you guys probably drool over. But hey, can’t go and speak about it because of docs and you probably wouldn’t believe me anyway.

??? Yep that made sense.

Purely opinion, show me some real physical evidence. Have you spoken to the bearing and piston manufacturers to see what they say? Why that last coat on the bearings and the advice to use LESS assembly lube on them than other parts of the motor?

And finally, for all those who drive their cars very little during the year, do you pull the dizzy and prelube your motor? (Note the PRELUBE and not PRIME you’ll find the definitions are varying.)

Granted, just my opinion, but I’m certainly not humble about it either.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

The bypass valve in the oil filter is in case of a clogged filter. At least you'll still get oil flow even though it won't be filtered. Everyone knows that.

Who cares...... "prelubed" or "primed"?? Unless you develop technical manuals for a living and it just irks you to no end to hear someone say "Primed"....I think everyone gets the drift. I've got a Haynes manual, and a chevy build up book that calls it priming the oil system. Not pre-lubing, which is also acceptable. Go figure.

I'm not bashing here guys, I'm just sayin, lighten up!!!!

Only place I use moly grease is on the cam lobes for break-in purposes. Other than that, I use STP oil treatment as an assembly lube. Someone will eventually tell me I should'nt use STP, and the only way to "build it right" is to use bonafide assembly lube only. But I know that STP has worked well for me, and I'll continue to use it, but hey.....everyone's entitled to their opinion at least.

I doubt you'll find hard evidence against either method, or any studies to prove not priming (or prelubed) causes any more wear than when you prime (or prelubed). Or vice-versa......

In the great name of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along"?? lol

Red Devil

I'll tell that to my filter before a nice cold start this winter, I'm sure it'll listen.

todd200

I can't say I know anyone who pre-oils thier motors including myself. This also includes all the professional "builders" I know. I put the motor together making sure everything is sterile and don't hold back when using assembly lube.

ljnowell

I never hear any clacks. I lube the cam very well, install it. Install lifters, giving a little squirt of lube into the cup of each one. Install pushrods, install rocker arms. I use assembly lube on every rocker arm, just to make sure. When it fires there is no noise, no clacks. Before the assembly lube can all come off, there is oil there. I will have my brother resize a pic, I have one of the engine on a stand, rockers and everything covered in assembly lube.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

See what I mean? I knew someone would have to throw up a pic of assembly lube after my last response!!

Allright Red Devil, you got me there! I suppose it also happens when the oil is cold and thick at first startups when its cold out.

And I can say that I DO know people that prelube (or prime lol) thier engines every time, and this includes a few "professional builders". And how do ya make sure everything is "sterile"? - Do you boil your cam and lifters before installing? lol

When I said that, I meant when changing oil period, not after an engine rebuild. I normally don't lube up the cam and put lube on rocker arms as part of an oil change. Mt S10 will clack for a second or two after an oil change if I don't fill the oil filter. It doesn't do that if I fill the filter halfway before installing it though.

The point I was trying to make was, this isn't one of those battles where there will be a clear "right" way to do it.
You can't prove priming an engine either hurts or helps an engine any better than you can prove that not priming an engine doesn't hurt it.

I'm not a professional engine builder by trade, and I don't try to pretend I am when I post on this board. I just tell people what I've either read in manuals, or what has worked for me in the past, that's all! :lala:

EDIT: BTW, I'd like to hear from the few on this board that do this for a living. I'd be more inclined to hear what they have to say about it. I think Vader is a bonafide GM mechanic, but as you can see, he's staying as far away from this topic as he can.....and I don't blame him one bit!!

todd200

As clean as possible and then a little cleaner!lol

Lead Tech at a Saturn dealership.