RB: In response to RedDevil's Reply.

RedDevil :Let me prelude this by saying the following, yes I have prelubed motors, no I don’t always do it, no I have yet to have a problem, yes I have seen the same motors apart for inspection and have yet to see any discernable difference.

Also, sorry Chickenman, but you had the most descriptive explanation so I just used your post.

RB: Well it would have been nice if you hadn't snipped my paragraphs and even sentences so much. A " Snip" is not the same as a " Quote". I'll try to clarify some things but you should really re-read the whole post again.




quote:
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Originally posted by Chickenman35
Once the engine is fully primed and all the oil passgaes are full of oil, the oil does not just drain away...that's what the anti-drainback valve in the oil filter is for. …Even then it is recommended that you fill the oil filter with oil before installing it to lessen the " air gulp" that the bearings will receive after an oil change.
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RedDevil: Yepper, that’s what it’s there for. Not one iota of a clue, thanks. Maybe you should go talk to some of the diesel mechanics and find out what the damn thing is really for. How exactly would oil drain out of our filters?!? Another very popular misconception. Now on certain V4's well... you really kind of need them there. Oh, and exactly who recommends the filter fill, why, and what do they recommend on the filters not as well positioned as the chevy’s? Where and why would there be an ‘air gulp’? Whatfor then is the bypass valve for?

[i]RB: A perfect example of " Snip and paste" and then attacking the writer without really understanding what was said. How is the oil going to drain out of the filter? Well of course anyone knows it can't.......but I never said that it could!! The purpose of the Anti-Drainback valve is to prevent oil from draining out of the oil galleries ( particularily the lifter gallerries ) back through the oil filter and back into the oil sump. And if you had not " Snipped and Cut" my post that is pretty simple to realise. Here's the original "Quote":

[quote]
Once the engine is fully primed and all the oil passgaes are full of oil, the oil does not just drain away...that's what the anti-drainback valve in the oil filter is for. The oil passages in the block remain full of oil after the engine is shut down , and oil pressure to the bearings is almost instantaneous when you restart the engine. Even after you change the oil and filter a significant amount of oil remains in the oil passages. Even then it is recommended that you fill the oil filter with oil before installing it to lessen the " air gulp" that the bearings will receive after an oil change

RB:Seems pretty clear to me when you take things in context. Chevy puts the Anti-Drainback valve in their filters to create a hydraulic lock in the oil passages, so that the oil does not drain out of the passages. And it does stay there for a considerable time. Chevy changed the ADBV material on the PF1218 filter over the old PF35 to create a better anti drain back feature. Chevy Service bulletins also have numerous warnings about using some cheaper aftermarket filters with poorly designed ADBV's or none at all. This can result in lifter " clack' in the mornings on start-up. Now I'm not going to waste my time digging the bulletins up. You don't believe me....I really don't care. You go dig up the bulletins.

Does that clarify things?



quote:
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Originally posted by Chickenman35
A rebuilt engine with NO oil is a whole different story. PRIME THE ENGINE. I've never heard of any Professional engine builder claiming otherwise, those that do have to make you wonder why?
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RedDevil: Seen it. Big buck shop that you guys probably drool over. But hey, can’t go and speak about it because of docs and you probably wouldn’t believe me anyway.

RB:Yeah, I would believe you. But myself and others have stated that we also know Big Bucks shops that swear by pre-oiling before initial startup. I'd love too tell you some inside stuff that I know...but I'm also on a Non-Discloser with our GT1 team...so what? So what's your point? It's six of one....half a dozen of the other....and even the Pro's can't agree


quote:
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Originally posted by Chickenman35
...the oil is just allowed to fling off the crank and is collected in a trough…AND the engine block is now FILLED ( That would be Primed!! ) with oil then the oil pump and oil pan is bolted on and the pan is filled with oil.
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RedDevil: ??? Yep that made sense.

RB: Well...it would have if you hadn't hacked and chopped the whole piece and even spliced sentences together. Just what don't you understand? Please go back and read the paragraph(s) again. Here it is unchopped:

And as for GM Engine Plant procedures? Last time I was there ( in the 80's ) all of the engines were "spin tested" on a " Wet Line". Completed long block, no fluids, no oil pan and no oil pump. A quick connect oil feed line is attached where the oil pump resides, the engine is spun over by an electric motor. All the oil passages are filled with oil...oil pressures are checked...the oil is just allowed to fling off the crank and is collected in a trough. This procedure takes about 10 seconds with Robotics.

Once the engine has passed this test AND the engine block is now FILLED ( That would be Primed!! ) with oil then the oil pump and oil pan is bolted on and the pan is filled with oil.

EVERY engine mfg that I know of builds their engines this way.

RB: Now you've chopped the front part off of one sentence and spliced it together with the back of another. When you read the whole thing together it is pretty easy to visualise what is going on. Posting a partial sentence ( like what you did ) makes no sense at all. But when you -reread the whole thing in context I hope it all makes sense. Yes...the oil passages are filled with oil....NOT THE WHOLE BLOCK. Comprende?

BTW...in answer to another question. I have seen this same ( or very similiar ) procedure done at GM, and the Nissan and Honda factories in Japan. The Nissan \Honda trips were a nice business perk. Somewhere I have slides buried in shoeboxes of the Nissan and GM Engine Factories. If I have time I'll dig them out and try and scan them.


quote:
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Originally posted by Chickenman35
EVERY engine mfg that I know of builds their engines this way.

If you like to do things right..and want your bearings to last a long time. Then pre-oil the new engine before starting.
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RedDevil: Purely opinion, show me some real physical evidence. Have you spoken to the bearing and piston manufacturers to see what they say? Why that last coat on the bearings and the advice to use LESS assembly lube on them than other parts of the motor?

And finally, for all those who drive their cars very little during the year, do you pull the dizzy and prelube your motor? (Note the PRELUBE and not PRIME you’ll find the definitions are varying.)

Granted, just my opinion, but I’m certainly not humble about it either.

RB: Well the first sentence was suppossed to be read in context with the end of the GM factory paragraph. Makes more sense that way and that was the way I intended it to be written. And as far as I know...every manufacturer does Wet-Spin there engines before initial firing. I could be wrong though. I've only visited three different plants and technology does change.

RB: I just don't like to take chances. I've explained to the best of my abilities on why I prefer to pre-oil, why on some engines it may not be entirely necessary ( Drag Motor changes between rounds for example ) but I can se no reason to not pre-oil engines just before initial startup. I want to make that clear so I'll repeat it. I am referring to pre-oiling the engine....just before the first startup of the engine.

RB:In conclusion : I apologise for the bandwidth and my rather lenghty explanation. But I did want to clarify things. It's sometimes hard to put down in print..what your mind is trying to churn out. Couple of other things I was going to respond to but I'm not going to waste any one elses's time. I hope SOME usefull info comes out of this thread.

PS: I really had to tone this down....you should have seen my origianl reply. The reason? The last sentence in RedDevil's reply:

[Snip]"Meanwhile, if you don't know what you're talking about, please don't confuse people by repeating a bunch of McDonalds parking lot monkey-spank and BS. Go get an education in math and science, and do a little research..."
-RB83L69 [/Snip]

Origianlly I thought that was aimed at me and the Chicken feathers were a flying....only when I was halfway through this post did I realise that it was part of " RedDevil's " signature and that it was not directly aimed at me.

See how easy it is to misunderstand the written word?