86TpiTransAm

Ok, check this out! My friend built a 356 20,000 miles ago!! After awhile he started noticing crappy oil pressure!! 10psi at idle!! Well, just about 3 or 4 weeks ago he changed the cam out for a better one and put on some aftermarket heads and while he was at it changed the oil pump to a melling high volume oil pump!! Well the car ran great but he kept noticing an oil pressure problem! 10psi at idle still....which we thought was very weird especially with the high volume pump!! Anyhow, yesterday he pulled the oil pan and pulled one of the main caps and...well....the bearing was shot!! We pulled the engine out and took off all the main and rod caps and took out the bearing and they were all shot!! Below is links to pictures so you can see the bearings!! What would cause these to do this!! The only thing we can think of is something got into the oil and chewed up the bearings....but how?? He was very careful when assembling the engine and working on it!! Did he just get unlucky or is there another explanation???

http://www.geocities.com/corynnobody/bearing1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/corynnobody/bearing2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/corynnobody/bearing3.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/corynnobody/bearing4.jpg




[This message has been edited by 86TpiTransAm (edited April 11, 2001).]

RB83L69

You can't link straight into an image on a Geocities page... you have to have some kind of real home page to do that

Put the pix somewhere that will let us see them. The cause of bearing failure is almost always easy to spot.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

86TpiTransAm

Ok...so I don't know WHERE to put the pics!! But anyhow, if you can't click on the link then just copy and paste it into the browser!! Most people can do that I'm sure!!

Ovrclck350

Hometown.aol.com gives away free space. So does some other places.


[This message has been edited by Ovrclck350 (edited April 11, 2001).]

jcb999

I see some very deep grooves in #1 (3 or 4) and at least one in all other bearings except 2. What type of trash did that oiling system pick up? Either that or some very bad assembly habits.

86TpiTransAm

Just about all the bearings have deep grooves in them!! We're not sure what got in there really!! The bottom of the piston bores are pretty scraped up too!! We're thinking that the shavings from the piston bores got into the oiling system and ate up the bearings!! But we still haven't figured out what might have eaten the bottom of the piston bored! We think it MIGHT have been the work the machine shop did! We don't think they honed it after they bored it but this was the first engine my friend built so he didn't know any better!! He said he thought the pistons fit awfully tight when he put them in!!

Something COULD have gotten in there during assembly but he seems pretty sure of himself that he didn't allow anything to get in there!

Vader

86,

After ANY machine work, it's very important to wash the case completly with hot soapy water to remove all contaminants. The skirt clearances also need to be checked when fitting the pistons in the bores, as well as the piston clearances. A good time to do this is when you are pushing the rings into the grooves for gapping.

If you had a tight hole and generated some free metal, you may have just discovered the result. The missing tin from the shells is likely the result of continued operation after losing oil pressure, wearing through to the shell liners.

I can't imagine the crank is very pretty either.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"What a Day..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader

RB83L69

Well I still can't see them, maybe somebody knows some trick for getting in there...

If there are deep grooves in the bearings, that means trash in the oil system. A favorite place for that to hide is from behind the cam bearings. When you guys took it to the car wash for the final cleanup before having the cam bearings put in, did you wire-brush those grooves back there that form the oil passages for the main bearings, real thoroughly? If not, it may have been merely some casting sand left in the surfaces of the block, that got dislodged by vatting, but that you missed in your hot soapy water cleanup.

So it take it the oil pump is trashed too. Sounds like you could maybe just crank kit it and move on, but that would be quite risky... who knows what's left hiding somewhere else just waiting to come out?

I always have the machine shop deliver me a block with all the plugs out, and no cam bearings. I run a rifle brush through all the oil passages with diesel fuel, use a hand wire brush as I just described, scrub the bores with a diesel fuel soaked rag, then take it to the car wash and blast every single one of the oil passages; then bring it home and paint it. I try to do the car wash early in the day on a nice wam sunny day so it dries quick and avoids rust.

Lose the HV oil pump. Use a regular M55 and put a Mr Gasket #26 spring in it, which will give you about 55-60 psi cruising. You don't need a HV pump, and if something goes wrong like it did in this last buildup, it won't save you.

The pistons didn't do that. Forget about tight skirt clearances as the culprit, that's not going to cause this to happen. The damage to the piston skirts came later, after the crank shed metal into the oil. Hopefully the new cam & lifters aren't trashed too.

Car wash the heads real good, there will be a pile of metal shavings in them too.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

8Mike9

I clicked on the links, no problems here.

Anyway, have you looked over the bores thouroughly? Those bearing look just like the ones on a block I had when the wrist pins walked out and scarred the bores.
And the crank looked just as bad.

86TpiTransAm

Lots of good help here! Thanks!! Luckily the cam looked alright when we pulled it out so I think it's alright!! He's gonna pick up a new set of lifters though!! I don't know if it could have caused any of this to happen but he also had 2 bent pushrods when we pulled them out! One was barely bent and the other was bent very nicely!! None of the lifters were busted though and the rockers were fine!! The rockers were set properly so I can't see how there could have been a tight rocker to have bent the rod....it had to of been somethin' else!!

I don't think he went to the car wash and washed the new heads before he installed them but I'm pretty sure he was havin' oil pressure problems prior to the head and cam swap!!

We'll hafta look at the wrist pins when we pull out the pistons!!

Guest

Nasty.

Looks like debris was in the engine to me. The only other thing I can think of is lack of oil pressure to the mains and rods.

RB, try copying the link and pasting it and hit enter. They just look like someone took some 60grit to them for a while. One is totally copper

RB83L69

Thanks max, that worked...

Definitely debris in the oil. It clearly shows in one of them, the one that's scored mostly down the center, right where the oil hole would deposit it.

If it had been caused by low oil pressure, you'd see burned and blackened places, and the bearing lining would be cracked and spalled.

Bent push rods = not enough valve spring for the cam, pure and simple. You can replace the push rods till the cows come home, it will continue to have valve train problems. What cam, rockers, and springs were in here?

Look at the bottom of all the lifters. If any of them has any scratches, the cam is toast, and you will be right back into the motor in a few more miles if you re-install it.

BTW this is why I don't bother with a HV pump: if the engine has a problem, it's going to come apart no matter what oil pump is in it. The pump won't keep the damage from happening. It's not "insurance" of any kind.

Good luck!

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

Corry

I have never done any of this befor so I have no new info to add, but just a quick question about what I saw, RB83L69 you said something about black and scorched pieces, and the bearings seem to have discolored from heat. However, this is where my lack of experience really shows, are they supposed to turn those colors that a nice tool steel lathe bit turns when you take a .1+" cut with a heavy duty lathe? It looks like something got hot enough to burn oil in there to me. Again, lack of experience? I would just like to know because sometime in the next few years, I'll be pulling my engine and rebuilding it, also sometime in the next month, I will have a GN 3.8 Turbo engine to rebuild so I need to learn all I can now. What should look out of place, and what is normal wear and tear.
Thanks


------------------
Corry Lazarowitz
clazarow@voicenet.com
clazarowitz@hotmail.com
SLP 1 3/4" headers, 3" cat back (stock cat )MSD ignition. MSD Blaster SS coil. More soon when funds are avail...

Bort62

rotfl, Inspirational love poetry ?


I think thats what caused your bearings to fail...



------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

RB83L69

Those bearings didn't get hot. They've been cut by a bunch of jagged metal particles, but they're nice and shiny comparatively speaking.

A bearing that has failed from lack of lube looks like the surface has actually gotten red-hot and melted, because it probably has. The metal will be all molten and splashed around looking and will often be detached in big flakes from the steel shell. There will be browned and blackened oil all over all the places that didn't touch the crank.

Once you see an engine come apart that has run dry, you will get a whole new religion about making sure your oil level is full at all times.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

86TpiTransAm

The cam is an XE262 cam, the rockers are just regular rockers, and the springs are the ones that came with the Sportsman II heads and can handle up to a .560 lift so that's NOT what caused the bent push rods!! Again, the cam, cam bearings, and lifters were just fine but he's replacing the lifters anyway!!


Anyhow, we've come to the conclusion of what happened!! The piston bores were not honed after being bored and since my friend did not check his piston to bore clearance, the skirts were scraping the cylinder walls and the resulting debris got into the oiling system and ate up the rod and main bearings!!

He's going to have the engine bored to .060 over since it's already .040 over and get a new engine kit and redo the entire thing!! Using a DIFFERENT machine shop this time!! He's going to take the pistons to the machine shop and have them finish bore the cylinders to the pistons!! He's already got the new crank and bearings!! We'll see how things go for him this time around!!

SCRA rules!

I sure hope he's got some receipts-the previous shop should be paying for this, whether it was under warranty or not. To me, this would qualify as gross negligence on their part.

------------------
'93 2wd truck
408 sb, vortecs, 454 TBI, Comp Cam, dual exhaust

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

I have to agree with scra rules. The machine shop should not have bored the engine at all without having the pistons that were being used to measure first. A good shop would have checked piston clearance before pronoucing a motor good and letting it go. also most shops I've dealt with usallly remove all plugs from the engine block and heads before they're cleaned and after the grease and grime is gone the parts are well cleaned. Sounds like this place half assed your friend's block.

86TpiTransAm

I hear ya! But this is Missouri and there's nothin' but rednecks here so there's nothin' he can do about the ****ty machine shop work!

The guy at the machine shop is an @****** anyway! He's takin' the block to a more reputable shop that's going to basically blueprint the block for him for just over $200! I think that's a good deal!!

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

You might try talking to people around local race tracks. I got a lot of good recomendations about shops from people at my local dirt track. These guys(and a few gals) are racing to win and they don't screw around with ripoff shops.

AlkyIROC

Sorry I can't view the pics but we had a similar problem at work last year. We did a bearing roll in a Cat 3406. A few months later the customer was complaining about low oil pressure. We checked everything and also changed the pump with no improvement. Finally we pulled the bearing caps again to recheck the bearings. Apparently the crank had been previously ground (not a common thing to do on a big engine) and we installed standard bearings. That extra clearance caused the low oil pressure.

Is it possible you had the same problem?

------------------
Follow my racing progress on Stephen's racing page
and check out the race car

87 IROC-Z Pro ET Bracket Race Car
383 stroker (carbed) with double hump cast iron heads and pump gas
461 Big Block installed and ready for the 2001 racing season

Best results before the 383 blew up
Best ET on a time slip: 11.857 altitude corrected to 11.163
Best MPH on a time slip: 117.87 altitude corrected to 126.10
Altitude corrected rear wheel HP based on power to weight ratio: 476.5
Best 60 foot: 1.662

Racing at 3500 feet elevation but most race days it's over 5000 feet density altitude!
Member of the Calgary Drag Racing Association

87 IROC bracket car, 91 454SS daily driver, 95 Homebuilt Harley

Corry

So then they are made from soft steel? I guess that makes sense. Thanks for the info, looks like as soon as I can find someone w/ a truck in the DFW area, I will have a 3.8 Turbo engine to rebuild This is the kind of info I come to this board for



------------------
Corry Lazarowitz
clazarow@voicenet.com
clazarowitz@hotmail.com
1987 Pontiac Trans AM (GTA?) 350 TPI
SLP 1 3/4" headers, 3" cat back (stock cat MSD ignition.
MSD Blaster SS coil.
3.73 Rear end gears
Accell 8.8 Wires
Bosh +4 Spark Plugs (Don't know if they really help but hell!)
Holley AFPR
Newly Self gutted cat!
More soon when funds are avail...

86TpiTransAm

That's ruled out! He had the crank turned down but he made sure that he got the proper sized bearings to go with it!! This time it won't be a problem either because he bought a turned down crank from Autozone and it came with proper sized bearings!!

Slayer2000: We don't have a track in this town so we were just goin' by what the people were sayin' about this shop! The guy there is a real A*shole so it's not a suprise to me! The next town over..about 20-25 miles... has a circle track and he's takin' his block to one of the shops in that town this time!! They're even giving him a WRITTEN 6 month warranty on their work! So it's all good!!

burnoutrpm

the person in question is me... i dont have the recipt ..he didnt give me one! you've got understand we live in a one horse town and that one horse is very very old and everyone is related....literally!!(inbreeders!) so this guy is a f u c k i n g ******* all the way and was probably screwing his sister at the time he machined ny Damn block!! he wont pay anyting, i cant sue im poor!! so i just ****ed.. and a new and much better(written waranty) machine shop is machining the block this time around!! so anyway no way to collect from the bastard!!


------------------
89 firebird formula

356 10.5:1compression CURRENTLY DEAD!!! BEARING FAILURE!!
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake
#1405 edlebrock 600
sportsman 2 heads 64cc 2.02/1.60 valves 200cc intake runner
msd 6al
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!


future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!

current engine underway..sucks not having a car!! Building the same engine but .060 over balanced and blueprinted..decided to get a little more serious this time around!!

[This message has been edited by burnoutrpm (edited April 16, 2001).]

Vader

86,

RB does make a good point. Even though the springs can tolerate adequate lifts, the spring pressure at installed height and rate might not be correct for the cam lobe profile. There are a lot of forces at work on the valve train. The cam pressure, valve train inertia, valve mass and float tendencies, valve bounce, even the angle of the rocker to the valve tip and push rod. The spring should be designed to control the valve through all the acceleration and inertial forces without letting any components get free. You should also closely check the valve train geometry to make sure the rockers are not binding on the studs and teh push rods are not binding in their guide holes. You might have also just had some soft push rods, but I'd check everything again just to be sure.


Damn. If you look back, my guess was pretty close, huh? I wouldn't have really known that if I hadn't seen that before. Looked a lot like the one I trashed in the same way. ("But I thought YOU cleaned the block!") Been there - just chalk it up to "learning" and remember it for the next time. I know I did.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"What a Day..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader

burnoutrpm

nothing to chalk up! the block WAS clean it turned the machine shop didnt do there job right they didnt even put a crosshatch on the cylinder walls! they are to blame here. he some stupid ******* guy with a machine shop i THOUGHT i could depend on ...guess not!


------------------
89 firebird formula

356 10.5:1compression CURRENTLY DEAD!!! BEARING FAILURE!!
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake
#1405 edlebrock 600
sportsman 2 heads 64cc 2.02/1.60 valves 200cc intake runner
msd 6al
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!


future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!

current engine underway..sucks not having a car!! Building the same engine but .060 over balanced and blueprinted..decided to get a little more serious this time around!!