Oil pressure dropped to zero after puting four quarts of oil''' Vader help!!!!!!!!!!!
02-05-2001, 10:10 AM
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Oil pressure dropped to zero after puting four quarts of oil''' Vader help!!!!!!!!!!!
OK I was on the highway coming back from ennis and i decided to go for a little top spedd run, so i down shifted to third and took off. There was no traffic and no cops so i was just about going through every lane of traffic. Thats when i noticed that when i changed lanes my oil pressure would dop about 5 to 6 psi depending on how hard i swithched lanes. So i just stayed in a single lane and just guned it. I passed 120 and i looked at my coolant temp and it was just fine. About 196. I looked at my oil psi and i was scratching my head because it was at about 30 psi. But being the dumb *** that i am decided to go faster. When i checked my gauges again i was doing 157 and my coolant was still fine , but my oil pressure WAS AT 17 PSI!! So i backed off, and was going about 60 and my oil pressure was at 0 psi. I put it into 3rd and oil pressure went up to 19 psi. I pulled over immediatley and checked my oil. I dont understand but it said i had hardly any oil. So i went into the gas station and bought 4 qaurts of oil and put it in. Went back on the highway and i noticed a considerable power loss. It was weird. I was on the entrance ramp and my engine was rapping up and it had no power. At 3300 r's in second gear i was stuggling to hit 55mph. Then my red indicator light came on my dash and it switched over to oil temp. It registerd 310 degrees. So i said screw this. Pulled over and called a wrecker.
Any body have any ideas.
Thanks for any help
Bowtieguy01
Any body have any ideas.
Thanks for any help
Bowtieguy01
02-05-2001, 03:07 PM
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Car: 04 GTO
Engine: LS1
Transmission: M12 T56
Well a high speed run is a likely culprit for low oil pressure, as all that abuse will beat your bearings, opening clearances, and dropping pressure. Thats how i killed my LG4. Of course, the extreme heating of those rpms also would have thinnned it enough to drop the pressure as well.
As for the ultra low oil...i hope you shut it off and let it sit for a few minutes before you checked it, or else a lot of oil could still have been sitting in the top end of the engine. beyond that, the bottom of the dipstick is ~2 quarts low, so adding 4 at a time wasn't really smart. Especially considering you were just going 157, and if you were 4 quarts low at that rpm i'm sure a rod would have popped through the hood to let you know.
Of course, thirdgen oil pressure guages have never been known to be very accurate.
My thinking is you were a quart low, didn't wait long enough after shut down to check it, thus thought you were even lower. Then you overfilled the *** out of it, causing a reduction in power b/c all that extra oil was causing parasitic drag on your crank b/c it was half submerged in oil.
ummm, but i still don't know exactly what you wanted to know...ed
As for the ultra low oil...i hope you shut it off and let it sit for a few minutes before you checked it, or else a lot of oil could still have been sitting in the top end of the engine. beyond that, the bottom of the dipstick is ~2 quarts low, so adding 4 at a time wasn't really smart. Especially considering you were just going 157, and if you were 4 quarts low at that rpm i'm sure a rod would have popped through the hood to let you know.
Of course, thirdgen oil pressure guages have never been known to be very accurate.
My thinking is you were a quart low, didn't wait long enough after shut down to check it, thus thought you were even lower. Then you overfilled the *** out of it, causing a reduction in power b/c all that extra oil was causing parasitic drag on your crank b/c it was half submerged in oil.
ummm, but i still don't know exactly what you wanted to know...ed
02-05-2001, 04:17 PM
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Car: 1996 Vette / 1992 GSX1100F Suzuki
Engine: 1996 Corvette Coupe 388 LT1 (+.060)
Transmission: Auto
Axle/Gears: 3.07
Well, it's all bad news. Only an autopsy will tell for sure.
The problem stems from oil, which killed the main bearings. If you have any accompaning knocking sound, then the rod bearing(s) were hurt too.
There are several possible causes.
Oil temp that's too high will cause it to break down and not properly lubricate. Bearings wear, clearances increase and pressure drops. Crank seizure then follows. From what I've read, oil temp is typically 75 degrees F higher at the bearing surface than the gauge reading shows.
Sustained high RPMS could have caused the oil pump to suck the pan almost dry causing the oil pump pickup to suck air resulting in much lower pressure hurting the bearings.
You were low on oil to begin with which would cause the same air sucking to occur, although I don't believe you'd be operating your engine four quarts low on oil.
Oil pump pickup developed a leak where it fits into the oil pump body.
Valve train breakage resulted in lifter jumping out of the bore causing loss of oil pressure.
Dropping oil pressure as you change lanes indicates the oil was being sloshed away from the pickup and the pickup was sucking air.
Sad to say, but it sounds like engine rebuild time.
Jake
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1986 Corvette Coupe, 415 CID, Edelbrock 6073s, ZZ9
[This message has been edited by JakeJr (edited February 05, 2001).]
The problem stems from oil, which killed the main bearings. If you have any accompaning knocking sound, then the rod bearing(s) were hurt too.
There are several possible causes.
Oil temp that's too high will cause it to break down and not properly lubricate. Bearings wear, clearances increase and pressure drops. Crank seizure then follows. From what I've read, oil temp is typically 75 degrees F higher at the bearing surface than the gauge reading shows.
Sustained high RPMS could have caused the oil pump to suck the pan almost dry causing the oil pump pickup to suck air resulting in much lower pressure hurting the bearings.
You were low on oil to begin with which would cause the same air sucking to occur, although I don't believe you'd be operating your engine four quarts low on oil.
Oil pump pickup developed a leak where it fits into the oil pump body.
Valve train breakage resulted in lifter jumping out of the bore causing loss of oil pressure.
Dropping oil pressure as you change lanes indicates the oil was being sloshed away from the pickup and the pickup was sucking air.
Sad to say, but it sounds like engine rebuild time.
Jake
------------------
1986 Corvette Coupe, 415 CID, Edelbrock 6073s, ZZ9
[This message has been edited by JakeJr (edited February 05, 2001).]
02-05-2001, 07:22 PM
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remember this
when going anywhere....the oil in your pan will get screwed in the *** by intertia...which means if you take a turn real fast...chances are that the oil will shift to that side of the pan...i wouldnt doubt it if that had something to do with what u were seeing on your oil guage
when going anywhere....the oil in your pan will get screwed in the *** by intertia...which means if you take a turn real fast...chances are that the oil will shift to that side of the pan...i wouldnt doubt it if that had something to do with what u were seeing on your oil guage
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02-05-2001, 07:41 PM
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Iwas also thinking that maybe my head gasket got blown and all my oil got into the coolant sys. I pray that it's going to be that simple. Yet ed seems to be right, I should have waited.
Anybody know any good rebuild kits?
Anybody know any good rebuild kits?
02-05-2001, 07:48 PM
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Well I think whatever happens im going to buy a rebuild kit any way. I was wondering if I should go fully grooved bearings. I think trw makes ones called cl-77. I think that the cl stands for CLEVITE. I thinks its a tri metal. I heard there a lot stonger that the babbit bearings. If i get the rebuild do you think it would be smart to go to 2 thousandths or maybe 2 and a half thousandsths on my bearing clearence. And maybe a heaveier oil.
keep the replies coming, It's helping alot
bowtieguy01
86' corvette
keep the replies coming, It's helping alot
bowtieguy01
86' corvette
02-06-2001, 02:02 PM
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Car: 1996 Vette / 1992 GSX1100F Suzuki
Engine: 1996 Corvette Coupe 388 LT1 (+.060)
Transmission: Auto
Axle/Gears: 3.07
There's been a lot of controversy over fully grooved main bearings over the years and the general consensus is not to use them. Of course once in a while you'll find a guy who swears they are the best thing since bubble gum.
Federal Mogul sells a 3/4 groove main bearing set which is about as far as I'd go.
I believe the main bearing oiling problem is not with the bearings themselves, since both Clevite and Federal Mogul are excellent bearings, but with the block's oiling system and the route the oil takes to reach the main bearings.
Killing main bearings has been a SB problem for a long time and the "fix" has been to revamp the oil routing to the now famous Priority Main oiling system.
The SB thrives on tight bearing clearances. I was told by Hank The Crank that the Winston Cup boys run .001 and Zero weight oil.
For street engines most service manuals I've seen state .002/.0025 minimum preferred.
Were you running synthetic oil at the time of the engine problem? Synthetics are touted to be able to handle higher heat loads before breaking down.
Grossly over-filling the oil pan would cause the oil to wrap itself around the crank like taffey and throw a ton of oil onto the cylinder walls, overwhelming the oil ring package.
The result would be parasitic power loss, big time oil foaming and oil getting pass the rings into the combustion chamber.
The crank would beat the oil into a froth, so the pump would be sucking up about as much air as it would oil - sort of like beating egg whites.
Based on what you wrote though, the oil pressure problem showed up before you added the add'l 4 quarts of oil.
So I'll put my money on low oil level and/or over-heated oil and/or mechanical failure as the most likely causes.
I'm very interest in learning what the autopsy reveals.
Jake
------------------
1986 Corvette Coupe, 415 CID, Edelbrock 6073s, ZZ9
Federal Mogul sells a 3/4 groove main bearing set which is about as far as I'd go.
I believe the main bearing oiling problem is not with the bearings themselves, since both Clevite and Federal Mogul are excellent bearings, but with the block's oiling system and the route the oil takes to reach the main bearings.
Killing main bearings has been a SB problem for a long time and the "fix" has been to revamp the oil routing to the now famous Priority Main oiling system.
The SB thrives on tight bearing clearances. I was told by Hank The Crank that the Winston Cup boys run .001 and Zero weight oil.
For street engines most service manuals I've seen state .002/.0025 minimum preferred.
Were you running synthetic oil at the time of the engine problem? Synthetics are touted to be able to handle higher heat loads before breaking down.
Grossly over-filling the oil pan would cause the oil to wrap itself around the crank like taffey and throw a ton of oil onto the cylinder walls, overwhelming the oil ring package.
The result would be parasitic power loss, big time oil foaming and oil getting pass the rings into the combustion chamber.
The crank would beat the oil into a froth, so the pump would be sucking up about as much air as it would oil - sort of like beating egg whites.
Based on what you wrote though, the oil pressure problem showed up before you added the add'l 4 quarts of oil.
So I'll put my money on low oil level and/or over-heated oil and/or mechanical failure as the most likely causes.
I'm very interest in learning what the autopsy reveals.
Jake
------------------
1986 Corvette Coupe, 415 CID, Edelbrock 6073s, ZZ9
02-06-2001, 09:59 PM
#11
BTG,
First, I'll assume you have a stock oiling system (wet sump) and no external leaks, like a blown Fram oil filter shell. Given that, does the PCV hose have a lot of oil residue inside? The blowby created at the RPMs you were running (and the load at those RPMs) would have raised the crankcase pressures to an unusually high level. Unfortunately, PCV isn't very compatible with speed runs. The oil mist in the crankcase can get sucked out over a period of time and empty the sump pretty fast. A good crank scraper set and windage tray can minimize the oil loss, but you're bound to lose some from oil slinging and the pressure will tend to help push it up the PCV hose. I'm guessing it took a couple minutes at fairly high RPMs and loading to get the speed up beyond a buck-fifty (it does for me) and possibly being a bit low to begin with wouldn't help the problem. Add a little foam from damp oil and extra bearing clearances and the scene would occur even faster.
But I'm just guessing.
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Vader
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First, I'll assume you have a stock oiling system (wet sump) and no external leaks, like a blown Fram oil filter shell. Given that, does the PCV hose have a lot of oil residue inside? The blowby created at the RPMs you were running (and the load at those RPMs) would have raised the crankcase pressures to an unusually high level. Unfortunately, PCV isn't very compatible with speed runs. The oil mist in the crankcase can get sucked out over a period of time and empty the sump pretty fast. A good crank scraper set and windage tray can minimize the oil loss, but you're bound to lose some from oil slinging and the pressure will tend to help push it up the PCV hose. I'm guessing it took a couple minutes at fairly high RPMs and loading to get the speed up beyond a buck-fifty (it does for me) and possibly being a bit low to begin with wouldn't help the problem. Add a little foam from damp oil and extra bearing clearances and the scene would occur even faster.
But I'm just guessing.
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Later,
Vader
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you since you might use the information illegally..."
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02-07-2001, 09:30 AM
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Well I got my car back today, and i checked the dipstick.
The oil is a little thicker than usual. But i smeared some oil on my hand and took a real close look and there are metal shavings in it. So then i started up the motor and its holding oil pressure at about 36 psi. But thats probably because the oils cold. Here my question. The metal shavings in the oil make me think a main got stacked. But if this were true my motor wouldnt crank. At least i think this is correct. It doesnt have a problem cranking at all. But when i started it and reved it i got some vibrations and knocking knocking now. but only at 1700r's and up. So i am going to start the tear down tommorow. Can i pull the pan w/ puling the motor? And a friend told me that i wouldnt necessarily have to pull the crank if the damage wasnt that bad. I dont know if thats true so im asking hear. Do you think that i should have the crank turned 10/10.
Bowtieguy01
The oil is a little thicker than usual. But i smeared some oil on my hand and took a real close look and there are metal shavings in it. So then i started up the motor and its holding oil pressure at about 36 psi. But thats probably because the oils cold. Here my question. The metal shavings in the oil make me think a main got stacked. But if this were true my motor wouldnt crank. At least i think this is correct. It doesnt have a problem cranking at all. But when i started it and reved it i got some vibrations and knocking knocking now. but only at 1700r's and up. So i am going to start the tear down tommorow. Can i pull the pan w/ puling the motor? And a friend told me that i wouldnt necessarily have to pull the crank if the damage wasnt that bad. I dont know if thats true so im asking hear. Do you think that i should have the crank turned 10/10.
Bowtieguy01
02-07-2001, 12:27 PM
#15
BTG,
In order to remove the oil pan, you'll at least have to rasie the engine somewhat. As long as all that is going on, for a little more bolt removal to leave the transmission behind, you can remove the engine and do a thorough and proper job.
And I'm not sure if your friend is a psychic or just guessing, but there is no way you can say that you can repair the damage without removing the crank until you se the engine with the pan and bearing caps removed. There is a very good chance that the crank suffers damage when any bearing fails, and the proper repair would include a regrind/polish of the crank.
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Later,
Vader
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"I know how to solve your problem, but I can't tell
you since you might use the information illegally..."
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In order to remove the oil pan, you'll at least have to rasie the engine somewhat. As long as all that is going on, for a little more bolt removal to leave the transmission behind, you can remove the engine and do a thorough and proper job.
And I'm not sure if your friend is a psychic or just guessing, but there is no way you can say that you can repair the damage without removing the crank until you se the engine with the pan and bearing caps removed. There is a very good chance that the crank suffers damage when any bearing fails, and the proper repair would include a regrind/polish of the crank.
------------------
Later,
Vader
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"I know how to solve your problem, but I can't tell
you since you might use the information illegally..."
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02-07-2001, 01:41 PM
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well, i didn't comtribute much, but i sure as hell did learn alot. Thanks guys!! 
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have a beat to hell 87 GTA 305ci 700r4
t-tops,recaro,honeycomb wheels,digital dash
paid $600 at a junkyard for it (i had to save it)
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have a beat to hell 87 GTA 305ci 700r4
t-tops,recaro,honeycomb wheels,digital dash
paid $600 at a junkyard for it (i had to save it)
02-07-2001, 02:05 PM
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Well Im at work and the mechanic told me it would be cheaper to drop a p motor into it rather than to fix it. My question would be if that would work? The distributor is still on the back of the motor so...
The ecm would probably have to be changed. either that or get a chip. And the tranny is a 700r4 so it should bolt up. The motor is a long block for $1500. SO well see.\
bowtieguy01
The ecm would probably have to be changed. either that or get a chip. And the tranny is a 700r4 so it should bolt up. The motor is a long block for $1500. SO well see.\
bowtieguy01
02-07-2001, 02:40 PM
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Car: 1996 Vette / 1992 GSX1100F Suzuki
Engine: 1996 Corvette Coupe 388 LT1 (+.060)
Transmission: Auto
Axle/Gears: 3.07
Remove the oil filter and cut it in half.
Look at the area of the filter between the pleats all the way inward in the crevices of the filter medium.
If you see gold flakes, you'll know that it's bearings. Silver flakes would be the top layer of the bearing; gold means the damage has reached the second layer and maybe beyond.
Drain the oil and let it run over the palm of you hand. Lots of sparkles means lots of bearing damage. WASH YOUR HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTERWARDS.
Whether you need to have the crank turned depends on how long the engine ran in that condition, but with the knocking sounds, it's almost a certainty that the cranks's hurt.
I haven't been under an "F" body in a lot of years so I have to defer to whether the pan can be dropped with the engine in the car. I know with my Vette I can drop it with the engine installed, but my undercarriage is different.
If bearing material is found in the filter or oil, then you can bet the bottom of the pan is loaded with it too. The oil galleries will have some in them too so a hot tank of the block is in order.
Best way is to pull the engine, especially since you now hear knocking sounds which tells me rod bearing(s).
If you can do the labor, a rebuild will cost much less than $1,000 since virtually all the parts can be reused.
Sorry about your misfortune.
Jake
------------------
1986 Corvette Coupe, 415 CID, Edelbrock 6073s, ZZ9
Look at the area of the filter between the pleats all the way inward in the crevices of the filter medium.
If you see gold flakes, you'll know that it's bearings. Silver flakes would be the top layer of the bearing; gold means the damage has reached the second layer and maybe beyond.
Drain the oil and let it run over the palm of you hand. Lots of sparkles means lots of bearing damage. WASH YOUR HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTERWARDS.
Whether you need to have the crank turned depends on how long the engine ran in that condition, but with the knocking sounds, it's almost a certainty that the cranks's hurt.
I haven't been under an "F" body in a lot of years so I have to defer to whether the pan can be dropped with the engine in the car. I know with my Vette I can drop it with the engine installed, but my undercarriage is different.
If bearing material is found in the filter or oil, then you can bet the bottom of the pan is loaded with it too. The oil galleries will have some in them too so a hot tank of the block is in order.
Best way is to pull the engine, especially since you now hear knocking sounds which tells me rod bearing(s).
If you can do the labor, a rebuild will cost much less than $1,000 since virtually all the parts can be reused.
Sorry about your misfortune.
Jake
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1986 Corvette Coupe, 415 CID, Edelbrock 6073s, ZZ9
02-07-2001, 05:54 PM
#19
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Hey Bowtie I don't know if you could take ShinerBock. He's in the 12's.
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See pics @ Billy's Firebird
92 Bird 3.1L Auto
Best $750 I ever spent....
DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
Kills:
93 Mustang LX (Before Mods)
98 or 99 Dodge Stratus (tough one, edged out at 40)
92 Camaro RS 305 TPI
Close Calls
94 Grand Am 3.1 V6
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See pics @ Billy's Firebird
92 Bird 3.1L Auto
Best $750 I ever spent....
DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
Kills:
93 Mustang LX (Before Mods)
98 or 99 Dodge Stratus (tough one, edged out at 40)
92 Camaro RS 305 TPI
Close Calls
94 Grand Am 3.1 V6
92 Cavalier 3.1 V6
01 Porsche 911 Turbo (Had em till first gear)
Mods-Jet Stage 2 Performance Chip, Accel Cap/Rotor, Accel 8.8 MM Wires, Accell Coil, AC Delco Rapidfire Plugs, Dynomax Catback, K&N
AIM name OVRCLCK350
02-07-2001, 06:48 PM
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Well there is a saying."Time Tools and Money"
If you dont have any of the three than it cant be done. I dont have the time because I'm working full time NOW to get the MONEY to fix this problem. SO I talked to the VFR racring engines today, They told me ballpark I was looking at $500 for parts. But then again $1500 for a long block P-motor is a steal! I can always take my old motor and build up the bottom end and drop into something. But the autopsy is going to be performed tomorrow so I'll update everybody tomorrow.
Bowtieguy01
If you dont have any of the three than it cant be done. I dont have the time because I'm working full time NOW to get the MONEY to fix this problem. SO I talked to the VFR racring engines today, They told me ballpark I was looking at $500 for parts. But then again $1500 for a long block P-motor is a steal! I can always take my old motor and build up the bottom end and drop into something. But the autopsy is going to be performed tomorrow so I'll update everybody tomorrow.
Bowtieguy01
02-07-2001, 06:51 PM
#21
TGO Supporter
when i bought my race car it had a 350 in it with a spun #3 main. it trashed the block and it looked really bad, but the car started and ran fine ,as far as i know. i only saw/heard it run maybe a total of 20 minutes. got it home on a roll back and started tearing it down and making it into a race car
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