martyr

Just tracked down the problem that I was inquiring about in this thread

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=222329

The center spring is kinda different from the rest..RIGHT??

The heads, rockers..everything related to the valvetrain has about 5k miles on them.

TFS 23 heads, 1.25in springs, Crane 2032 Compucam.

SMasterson

Yep, same here with the 1.25" TFS springs. There are others that had trouble with those sprinds and posted here and on other boards.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ght=tfs+spring

I'd get them outta there ASAP!

martyr

Thanks for the info. I just e-mailed Trickflow and suggested they "make it better ASAP".

RB83L69

Alot of the head mfrs do this to their customers. I don't understand it.

They put some cheap crap for springs on their product, like K-Motion or GM's "Z28" springs or something. Total garbage whatever it is. WHy anybody would go to all the trouble and expense of manufacturing a casting like they do, and then install a bunch of time bombs on them, is one of those mysteries of human behavior that I'll just have to study that species a little longer before I can answer.

Your heads look to me like they're machined for 1.45" springs. Throw all that inferior 1.25" excrement in the trash, and put a set of 1.45" springs on there from one of the cam mfrs (NOT K-Motion or some other low-bid stuff from people who don't make cams), along with the matching retainers and keepers. Comp 986, or the equivalent product from Lunati, Crane, etc.

martyr

This will be my first time removing all of the rockers and everything...at least from a set of heads I plan on using again...

Are we looking at a highly skilled task? And while I'm doing this will the springs I get be enough to hand the LPE 219 cam should I decide to try it out?

This will be my initiation into setting valve lash and torquing stuff down to spec..

Would it be a good idea to go ahead and throw some 1.6 rr in there while I'm at it???

FstBrd6point3

ok... well if make sure that if you put 1.6rr on you dont excede the lift capacities of your springs.... as far as replacing the springs, I am guessing you are going to take the heads of to do all of them? if you are setting lash is easy as hell, just od it before you put you intake on.

just do them one cylinder at a time.... bring it to TDC... tighten the nuts until you pushrod JUST stops moving so freely... then tighten the bold about 3/4 of a turn.... with the intake off you will be able to see the pushrod seat decend in the lifter. you have about .200 of adjustment all together, so figure tighten to about .100, which is about 3/4 of a turn of the bolt. then do the next cylinder in sequence.

martyr

I had not intended to take the heads off. It doesn't look like that's a "must" thing to do...unless I need to be checking for some damage that resulted when the spring "sprung".

Does it matter if I buy springs capable of being used with 1.6 rr now and use them with my 1.5 until I'm ready for the 1.6rr?

FstBrd6point3

just have sure you dont get springs with more then 325# or so of open pressure if you are using hydraulic lifters.

martyr

Just spoke with Charlie at Trick Flow; he explained that the 1.25" springs were not really compatible with Hydraulic Roller Cams.

It would have been nice for them to mention that in their advertisements. If they had I would not have purchased them.

They are sending a set of larger diameter springs for $75.00 or so with all of the retainers and stuff.

If I had it to do over again I would have purchased AFR or Edelbrock. Who cares if they cost more...I'm out $400.00 in rental car and Mechanics fees.....not including my time to put the new stuff on again.

Oh and BTW...Trick Flow is not aware that these springs have been a problem for other people in the past.... .

FstBrd6point3

did they say WHY they are not compatable with the hydraulic lifters?? that doesnt make sense. If the lift of your cam is under the specified max lift of the springs and they do not have more than 325# open pressure, they are more then compatable with hydraulic lifters. If the springs did have more pressure then that, you would have collapsed the lifter or bled them out, not break the springs. You need to break out the sheet that came with the heads and find out the exact specs of the springs, I think they are makin up an excuse to screw you out of another 75.00 dollars. I would have demanded replacements for free.

martyr

He said something but didn't speak English..he speaks "Technicalese." I just said..yeah..OK.

Of course the Crane guy I spoke too spoke "Technicalese" too...so maybe I should have had them speak to each other?!? I'm learning little pieces of it here and there...most of the lessons are real expensive...$200-300 a word. But once you learn a word you don't often forget it.......


Charlie asked me if 75.00 seemed fair for the new springs & stuff..I asked him if he thought it was fair and he said "yes". I may be a fool but a man's word is his bond...

" Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me!"

I'll give them a chance to make it right to me but I'll never recommend their product.

FstBrd6point3

I guess it helps sometimes to know a little bit of their language... I would have chewed that guy to pieces ;-) lol

owned

The reason the springs are not meant for roller cam use is that they are bull**** crappy springs. Roller cams tend to need springs with more pressure, as they have much wilder ramp ups, and use much heavier lifters. The combination means you need a stronger springs to keep from tossing the lifter off the lobe.

ALWAYS make sure your springs are matched to your cam and valvetrain!

Artie@TFS

The reason is simple as to why those springs do not work with hydraulic roller camshafts, Hydraulic roller camshafts require a higher spring rate.
When using a small diameter spring, Such a 1.260" diameter, You will need a spring with a rate of at least 400lbs for reliability in performance applications.
Majority of the 1.260" springs do not have a 400lb rate, Most are anywhere from 335-360lbs. Ours are 360lbs.
In the Crane Cams catalog, they list two different 1.255" diameter springs for the 2032 camshaft. the first part number is 99848-16, and is listed as having a 382lb spring rate. The upgrade spring, is 99846-16 (H11 tool steel), And is listed as having a 409lb rate.
Why is a higher spring rate more desirable for a hydraulic roller camshaft? Simple, The rate of lift is higher, Coupled with the weight increase of a roller lifter.
What is "increased rate of lift"? Look at the lobe design of a hydraulic roller camshaft & then look at a hydraulic flat tappet, The hydraulic roller camshaft lobe is visibly more aggressive per degree of duration.
Does using a 1.6 rocker affect this? Yes it does, you are now making the valve lift an additional .032" in basically the same amount of time.
Do I need to change from a single spring to dual because of the ratio change? In some situations, yes...
Valvesprings live & die because of harmonics, If you get a spring into a bad harmonic situation, Guess what happens...
Just because a spring is rated for .520" lift does not mean it will live with your particular camshaft.
Let me use a different example so as to not inadvertently insult anyones intelligence:
Competition Cams # 12-213-3 camshaft, SBC hyd FLAT tappet camshaft.
292*/292*Avd Dur, 244*/244*@.050"Dur, .501"/.501" lift, 110* LSA, 106* ICL.
Does it mean that you can use this camshaft (since it only has .501" lift...)with our 1.260" spring? Absolutely not, Competition Cams recommends that you use their 986-16, 1.430" dual spring (132lbs seat psi) with that camshaft. It's all about rate of lift people...
Maximum lift capabilities have their place when picking out a camshaft, But it is not the only factor in determining the appropriate valvespring.
You cannot reasonably expect one valvespring to cover every single camshaft design out there, It is just not gonna happen...

At any rate, If anybody would like to email me directly I am at akakiou@trickflow.com -OR- you can call me @ 330-630-1555 Ask for Artie @ Ext 6324. I am in the office from 9am-5pm Mon-Fri....

martyr

Seems like it would have saved me a lot of time if you had written what you just wrote about this time last year; then cut and pasted it into a word document and produced an actual letter. Then sent this letter via inter-office courier to the marketing folks within TRICKFLOW. This info might have then been included in the product literature for the TFS 23 degree heads...heck...we'd probably want that to be included with all the heads at Trick Flow...right??? Then consequently this information would have trickled on down to SUMMIT and been included with all the other info listed under the "technical" tab next to the Trick Flow 23 degree heads. Then when some stupid technically handicapped dweeb, such as myself, with a $1000.00 burning a whole in his pocket see's it he'll know to save up the extra $80.00 for the correct heads instead of cursing TRICK FLOW about the same time this year!!!!

I guarantee you the power of "word of mouth" product recommendation / endorcement has never had as much impact as it has now with the inception of the internet. It will be the death of companies that try to hide cost cutting measures by blaming the consumer for " not asking the right questions.".

"So there it is. Trick Flow Heads with 1.25" springs are most likely not going to work with a Hydraulic Roller Cam." Gee I said it and it didn't hurt at all.

Can't wait to get the new springs from Charlie at TRICK FLOW..yeah the ones I paid $75.00 for even though it's TFS fault in my opinion. Can't wait to spend next weekend learning all about springs and how to take them out and put them in..and how to adjust the rockers...and all that stuff. Hope it's raining too then the language will really flow.........and to imagine that I could have been wasting time playing with my kids. Thanks TRICKFLOW.

SMasterson

I guess you all have learned something in the last two years because on 9/27/01 you made no mention of those springs not working with hydraulic roller lifters in your reply to my email about one of them breaking.

Also, I seriously doubt that my stock '88 springs were rated anywhere near 400# but none of them ever broke!

Also, you got me for about $150 plus the trouble of changing them, twice, (because I needed the truck running the day I found the broken one.) The Erson 1.25's" werent' rated that high but worked almost a year, until I changed them for the dual 1.46's.

You should admit it, the springs you're putting in those heads are crap! I still feel burned by the deal. If that valve had dropped. . . I still don't like to think about it.

By the way, you still list those heads with 1.25" springs for '87-'95 non-LT1 engines on your website. What kind of lifters do you think are in *most* of those engines?

Also, I have never steered anyone away from the TFS 23° heads but I do warn them about the 1.25" springs, as YOU should do too! Dollar for dollar I got what I paid for, until you factor in the expense of buying new springs, cups, seals and retainers, keepers twice, (you sent the wrong ones and I had to buy some locally because the heads were taken apart.)

Glad to see you here to give your support of your product but remember, you manufacture heads, we use them, and we're not all noobs!

martyr

I want to keep this one at the top of current threads.

TRICK FLOW messed up "Big Time" on this one. Oh and BTW, my first point of contact at Trickflow wasn't aware that this was a problem....Hmmmmmmm...let's transfer this call to AREA 51.

I'm not an expert mechanic by any stretch ( really I'm a 2 on a scale of 1-10.)...but I'm not a freakin' idiot when it comes to people..business relationships and trust!!!!!

martyr

Oh and BTW Artie, does anyone at Trickflow know that you're spouting this simple reasoning off on this website, because if I were your boss I'd be telling you to "STFU.".

But of course you won't read this tonight because

ede

i know it's a little late to get in on this thread, but the only springs i use are from comp or lunati. i believe crane makes good aprts too but i don't use them. like rb said k motion and gm springs among others are junk.

RB83L69

Ya know Artie, I was going to warn you to wear your thickest skin when you come here, because your company has alot of dissatisfied customers, due to a very poor way of reducing your cost, which ends up causing massive preventable trouble for your customers.

Selling performance heads with basically stock valve springs on them has got to be about the stooopidest thing you can do to your customers. Guaranteed to cause failures in the field, again may I mention, totally preventable up front, for pennies on the dollar. IMHO there shouldn't even be a 1.25" spring option on performance heads at all; and since most people who are springing one large for a set of heads are also usually using cams with aggressive profiles that require quality valve springs, a bunch of low-bid crap like K-Motion in any size has no business on a product that's supposed to represent "quality" in the marketplace. This is a classic example of how ISO9000 and "Total Quality" programs don't produce a superior product: if your specs say "we put the cheapest springs we can find on our heads", and the heads come out of the factory with K-Motion on them, then you can claim a 100% ISO-defined "quality" accomplishment, even though the product is destined for near-certain failure in actual usage.

It's not just Trick Flow that does this; AFR makes the same mistake.

So, please come back, don't let the anger of people with failed rpoducts scare you off, and address your customers' issues; and carry the news back to the bean counters and paperwork-shuffling clerks in your organization that they have an opportuinty for product improvement, to help counter some of the very bad word-of-mouth your products are getting out here in meatspace.

Artie@TFS

SMasterson:
When we had alot of issues with the 1.260" springs failing, It was not with the 23* heads. We had alot of issues in 1995ish when we were using the K-700 springs from K-Motion on our first generation Twisted Wedge heads.

We switched to a new spring vendor altogether when we put together the spring packages for the then new 23* head. Durability testing on the dyno has shown these particular 1.260" springs to be very reliable. In fact, there have only been a few failures with them that were not caused by mis-application.

We did alot of intentional "time bombs" on the dyno to see what these springs would take before failure. We were satisfied with what we saw, The last thing we would do is put a spring on a head that is prone to failure in its intended range of usage.

Why was my email reply to you in 2001 was the same as our current reply? It's really very simple, We just do not have alot of those springs failing.

When they do fail, You can usually trace the failure back to mis-application.

Martyr:
There was no transfer to "AREA 51". Again, In respect to your issue, The 23* head has not had a very big failure rate with the as supplied 1.260" spring. This is why he answered the way he did.

When a spring does fail, The cause of the effect needs to be identified. Remember this: Failures do occur, But what is the cause of the failure?

First we are accused of speaking "technicalese" instead of english on the phone with you, Now I am accused of spouting "simple reasoning", It seems that no matter how I answer it will not matter to you as you are not open to a conversation that is not confrontational. (Reference the STFU part....)

Do springs live in situations they were not designed for? Sure, But you must realize that at some point they WILL fail.

By the way, Nobody called you a freakin' idiot.

ede:
You would be very surprised at just how many cam/head manufacturers use the same (literally...) springs.

RB83L69:
Do not worry, I have very thick skin.

We offer the 1.260" spring as that is what alot of people are asking for. When used in their intended range they will live a long happy life.

It really does boil down to this: As the person buying a said head / cam package, it really is up to you to find out what the camshaft manufacturer recommends you to use for springs & whether or not the springs installed on the head you're buying will work.

It does not matter what we, Dart, AFR or Edelbrock install on the head as there is no way to put one set of "magic springs" on a head that will live in every situation. (Believe me, We would be the first in line if there were such a spring...)

RB83L69

My personal recommedation would be to eliminate the 1.25" option entirely from your catalog, leave it perhaps as a special-order item for people with spring-diameter class rules or the like; and make your entry-level spring a 1.45" one, either in bulk from one of the cam mfrs such as Comp, Lunati, Crane, Isky, etc. (NOT K-Motion or GM or Acme Valve Spring Co.) or from the same vendor they obtain theirs from. A good-quality moderate 1.45" spring such as a Comp 986 will work well with any cam from a stock one on up to a fairly hot street hydraulic roller.... much nearer to the application range of your target market than any 1.25" piece.

Incidentally, here's Dart's choice on one of their heads... I happen to have a set of these with 1.55" springs, though not the factory ones. http://www.dartheads.com/csbhiron.htm#

martyr

Artie,

I'm pretty PO'd about this whole situation and it does appear that I'm being confrontational so I'll dial it down a notch....even though the reference to "STFU" was not directed from me to you or me to anyone.

I am a 100% valve spring novice ( I won't refer to myself as a freakin' idiot in case you think I'm accusing you of calling me that even though I inferred that I felt like I'd been treated like one, not that somebody had called me one.)

Fact of the matter is I spent a whole lot of money on a product produced by your company because the advertising / technical specifications led me to believe I could given my limited knowledge of valve spring complexity.

That is the simple fact.

Having spent this money I have a deep down gut feeling, based on a lifetime of experience inter-relating with other members of the human race, that I have not received the desired benefit from the money I gave to your company for the "Cylinder Heads - Chevrolet: 1987-95 350 (non-LT1), 64cc combustion chambers, 1.250 in. diameter valve springs, Kenny Duttweiler 23 degree cylinder heads"

If my feelings have led me down a false path, and I have no right to feel that this product has failed to perform as I was led to believe I deeply, and with greatest sincerity apologize. It's just that your previous response led me to believe that it was common knowledge and an unreasonable expecation for these valve springs to work with a hydraulic roller cam.

It really is a good thing that you stay on the thirdgen website and keep in touch with the end-user..don't get me wrong, I just come from a generation that probably would have responded to this by saying....

"Gee Sir, you're right...we neglected to include a disclaimer or warning on this product..let us get you the correct setup and make it better because we want you to be a customer for life!"

SMasterson

You've had more than a few failures because I'm sure this board represents a very small fraction of the total *1.25"* springs installed on the 23° SBC heads and there have been a "few" posted here.

Your reply in 2001 wasn't the same as your reply here! It was, call us and we'll make you a deal... which you didn't. I'd have complained more then except it was almost a year or so before decided what to put on the heads. All the while, I ran some Erson 1.25's that worked fine with many runs to 6k with two different hydraulic roller cam grinds.

Usually? Now you're advertising heads for an engine and then coming on here and telling us were using the wrong springs! Here's the deal, if they're the wrong application for our hydraulic roller cams then it still your fault! When we buy your heads we're buying the documentation sent with them, and the information posted on you website about them aren't we?

I haven't expected anything from you to make me feel better about this deal since you gave me the price for the spring upgrade, and I paid you that price without a single gripe. I did call and gripe about the keepers you sent that were the wrong ones and you said to send them back for a $15.00 credit. Big WOOP!

You've got quality control issues and refuse to accept it! Ever do a search for something about a 3rd gen Camaro/Firebird? You won't get far without finding a link to this board! Heck, do a search on Holley Stealth Ram GMC and my web page is about 6th. Put Trick Flow in there and it goes to second! I'm not asking you to fix anything for me, just for your future customers! I probably won't even think about doing anything devious like posting a link to this thread on my dinky page, but then again, depends on whether or not you change your web page information, soon.

owned

my .02...

I agree that the springs put on a lot of aftermarket head packages are marginal for applications that maximize the performance of those heads.

However, I am not seeing anywhere where the "as-packaged" springs are being advertised as beingf able to handle wild profile roller cams. The usefulness of these springs is in question, but you get what you pay for. Those springs are on the heads to hit a certain price point and retain a certain profit. That happens in any business.

To me, this is NOT the companies fault. Every cam on the market has recommedations for the correct spring needed, and the best spring varys wildly depending on the cam used.

The head manufacturer has no idea what cam is going to be used with their product. Why should they be liable when somebody doesn't follow the instructions with their CAMSHAFT, thus damaging the head/valvesprings?

If I build a motor with 15:1 domed pistons, and slap it together without checking clearances, start it up and bend every valve, is that the head manufacturers fault too?

I understand the argument that performance heads should be expected to be used with performance engines, and thus have better springs, but they all offer upgrade packages... And besides, I still think the cam manufacturers recommendations should be followed regardless.

martyr

It's about telling you about their product. They didn't say anything about hydraulic roller cams and the fact they won't work with the 1.25 inch springs.

It's also about the fact I was told I'd have all the parts to get this car up and running before the weekend. The parts, minus the VITON SEALS, arrived on Thursday and the seals are back ordered until the 25th...soooo another $125 for a rental car this week.

Just tell me the truth TRICK FLOW otherwise I will say things like.." I recommend you never buy a Trickflow product because their customer service is a joke.....I wish I had purchased the AFR heads."

Very truthful and to the point.

Neil

Martyr and SMasterson, I feel your pain! I too have been one of Trick Flow's guinea pigs. You can check out part of my story in this thread

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=224322

I couldn't agree with you guys more especially the part of Customer Service, oh sorry, I meant LACK of customer service!

Unfortunately TFS (Trick Flow Specialties) doesn't understand the concept of good customer relations!
(Artie, I am not directing this to you, I do think that your company has issues and they need to be resolved!)
In regards to the valve spring issue, (BTW, "owned" I disagree with you) what do you think TFS customers are doing with there heads? Using stock, worn-out cams with them? I think not! As Artie detailed in a previous post about valve spring and cam specs, that should be CLEARLY indicated to the customer. How hard would that have been? With a company such as this that comes up with a unique, supposedly bad-*** design, they should make damn sure that there product is as good as they claim it to be.

Now, Artie IMO, failure for trick flow with ANY aspect of their heads is not an option! Trick Flow failed miserably with the TFS generation 1 head for SBC (I witnessed that first hand). So that card has already been drawn.

Anyway, it's only a matter of time before someone takes TFS to court! I mean if you can spill hot coffee on your lap and win a million + from McDonalds, why not! LOL

owned

SO when you throw away the slip of paper that comes with your non-stock, non-worn out cam that shows the recommended valvespring, who's fault is that?

Oh, you are right. Obviously thats the fault of the head manufacturer.

martyr

:lala:

RB83L69

Owned, you don't really get it do you.

The head mfr. has one specific choice to make when selling an assembled head out of a long list of choices.

What valve springs should they use?

Now.... keep in mind, springs all cost about the same, at the buying level and the performance level we're talking about here. It's no real skin off of their nose to put something halfway good on there, since it costs within practically pennies the same as something really basic.

So... I'm the head mfr, and I'm doing my market research (!), and I'm asking my prospective customers what they will be using my heads for and in conjunction with what other equipment so that I can make sure my product is ready for the environment it's about to be immersed in when it emerges from its box. I can only assume that Trick Flow did this, and AFR, Dart, Edelbrock, and all the others too, right? (Well, they did, didn't they?) And the prospective customers all came back with the resounding answer, in a single voice:

"I'd be more likely to buy your heads if you put the weakest spring you can find on there, because when I put these heads on my car, I'm only going to use a stock cam. I'm not going to be using a Comp Xtreme roller, or a Crane Energizer roller, or any of those other cams that people seem to buy; no, with these $1000+ heads that I'm buying in order to upgrade my car's performance, I'm going to keep using that stock cam. And of course if I do go out and buy one of those radical monster cams, I want to be required to buy some other valve springs in addition to the ones I've already paid you for. So I'd be more likely to buy these heads if they came with stock springs."

Yeah right.

I realize you can't put one universal valve spring on a set of heads that will be perfect for all applications; but you can pick one that fits the majority of them, and at the same time, avoids complaints like the ones in these posts.

So sure, owned, there might be disclaimers in the fine print and all that sort of stupid stuff, and yeah sure it's the buyer's fault if he doesn't read them and doesn't go out and educate himself on what the head mfr should have done right for him in the first place; or the mfr can just give him what he really needs up front and not have confused or unhappy customers. You don't own a company it would appear, never have, and probably don't have anything to do with deciding what your employer's products are or with getting customer feedback on them, or you'd know better than the drivel you're posting.

Neil

Yeah, I see we have different opinions about this owned, which is fine; however, Trick flows problems exceed this issue. If you read my previous post in the other thread you will see what I am talking about.
I see your point but how do you explain when one buys a set of trick flow heads, has a certified cylinder head shop (which is a TrickFlow distributor) port and polish them as well as set them up with springs SPECIFIC to that of your cam shaft and the heads fail (i.e., bent valves, obliterated valves guides and broken springs)? Here we are talking about a professional who knows his stuff when it comes to cylinder head performance and he couldn't get it right! Hmmmmmmmm very questionable?

Owned, I have had several different motors and different heads from Dart to GM and I have run big roller cams with no problems. So, I guess until you have owned a set of trick flows, you will never know what we are talking about.

SMasterson

So... when the advertised TFS springs are rated higher than the recommended springs from the cam manufacturer I'm supposed to take those off and buy different ones?

The danged 1.25" springs on those heads are crap!

[I deleted the insults here and a off hand comment about a troll]

67camaro

There are only two people that have made any sense on this thread, Artie the Tech and owned. When choosing a set of assembled heads who in their right mind would not take into account the capabilities of the valve springs. The valve springs are going to determin the profile of the cam. If you select a cam that is going to go beyond the capabilities of the springs , shame on you. Here is an idea, choose the cam first and then select a pair of cylinder heads that come with a valve spring that will match the profile. Remember gentlemen:

1. Cam determines valve springs needed.
2. Valve springs determine cam profile that can be used.


I can tell by some of the things written in this thread, that some of you ,in your own minds, believe this is a case of some big business screwing the little guy and not babysitting their customers. Look in the mirror fellas and you shall see where the blame truly lies.

martyr

67 Camaro:

:lala: You have got to be be kidding me!!!

martyr

Actually I just reread what 67camaro wrote and he's right...never mind all the stuff I wrote...it's pretty much all my silly own fault...................................................................................................................................NOT!!!!!

Neil

67 camaro, thanks for stating the obvious
:hail:
I am so glad you cleared this up for us! Where were you back in '98 when I bought the TFS G1 heads? You could have schooled the cylinder head builder in setting up my heads and saved me alot of $$$$?..........................Not so much!

martyr

I think the moderators should give 67camaro instant "senior member status" so everyone gives him the immediate respect he deserves. So little time and so many who might benefit.:hail:

I attempted to delete this message but was unsuccessful. I'm really attempting to control my cynical and sarcastic nature by restricting messages like the one that is contained in the paragraph above. Please help me!

Neil

Hey martyr, please don't stop your sarcastic/comical replies! It's good to see humor like this especially when it's justified.

martyr

Do you really mean it Niel? Lemme think about it....................OK!!!!

martyr

Artie Wrote:

So the 1.46" springs that Charlie at Trick Flow is sending me are going to work right? They're only rated to 360# but are larger diameter....