Gta-Paladin

MAn, looks like Ford was paying attention to the zr :|
<a href="http://www.stangnet.com/2001cobra/indexpage1.htm"> 2001 svt engine stats </a> [/b]
Lets face it these fords are getting faster and faster with the dohc's is it possible to see 100hp per litre in the near future? I'm very angry to say the least Chrysler is putting out the new hemi which is supposed to be the EXACT same thing as an ls1. Ford's doin the zr-1 thing ls6 is being scrapped for 2002 WHATS GOING ON? Why isnt GM devoting the time for a new Engine? I'm seriously thinking about the engine im putting in my GTa now i want reliability the Ramjet 350 sounds nice but im going to need more power. :| just blowing my anger wad on the board here.

Dan87IROC-Z

Yea, sure those DOHC 4.6L Mustangs make 320 hp, and what, like 260 ft lbs, but how much does torque your old L98 make, 330 ft lbs, and what about GMs best engine, the LS1 make, 345 hp and 350 ft lbs torque. You have to look at a LOT more than just peak horsepower when determining how fast and how efficent an engine will be.

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1987 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z
L98 TPI 350 (5.7L)
TH 700R-4 Transmission
Borg Warner 7.75" 9 Bolt Rear End

Current Mods: LT4 Hot Cam, Comp Cams 1.52:1 Roller Rocker Arms, Edelbrock TES 1 5/8" Headers, Hooker 3" Aerochamber Cat-Back System, Gutted Catalytic Converter, Performance Resource Chip, Accel Ignition Coil, Cap, Rotor, 8.8mm Wires, K&N Filters, JET TPI Air Foil, Ported TPI Plenum and Base, All Free Mods, Falken ZIEX Z-Rated Tires.

Best ET (w/o LT4 cam): 14.32 @ 97.7mph
(corrected for elevation)

7.5" 10 Bolt with 3.42s soon to come!

Gta-Paladin

320 horsepower at 6,000 rpm and 317 foot-pounds of torque at 4,750 rpm.

They're also running the lighter car... not as much as it was with third gens and fox bodies but they still are lighter

theformula

The new stangs ARE getting pretty quick. I have accepted the fact (a long time ago), our cars are way outdated. Let's face it. The L98 doesn't get very quick without spending a few grand (at the very least). By the time you reach your goal of a 12 second street car, you've already spent thousands of dollars and your engine will be far from stock. Which defeats the purpose if you ask me.

84TransAm

Unfortunately I have to side with theformula. The Cobra puts out 5 less hp than a new Trans Am w/ Ram Air which is 325 hp (of course thats underrated). Look at the platform that F*rd is running off of. 4.6L vs 5.7L. DOHC sure does make a difference.

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--Steve S--
1984 Trans Am 305 LG4, 5 speed
RPO codes point to Recaro version
Daily Driver, Flowmaster 80 Series

CamaroX84

GM is devoting time to a new engine. The new Vette Z06's have the new LS6, which is like no other small block ever made by GM. And like Dan87IROC-Z said, look at the torque. With 345 lb./ft. of torque, stock, we are not left in the dust. Horespower is nothing unless you have torque to support it. Just my two cents though.

Guest

Cobra? LOL!

I just talked to my friend at the dealer last week, and he confirmed to me what salesmen have told me, no Cobras til 2002, I think they were talking about a June or July release. Remember the HP rating problems they ran into and their stupid manifold and exhaust patch fix? 320... sure...
At least the GM's are putting down what they say, and theres lots more left. Try to pull 50HP out of a Cobra sometime. Ford is still way behind IMO.

88irocz28

The management at GM surely must be on crack. They haven't done anything right in a long time. Anybody who read that speech by the ex-GM guy (Jerry Flint?? not sure, just a shot in the dark) must know what I'm talking about. No wonder they're killing Olds and the F-bodies. That dude pointed out exactly how screwed up these guys are. Whatever GM is today is the legacy left behind by those who built it up ages ago. It's steadily losing it's market share to F*rd et al, because of all sorts of marketing and management screw ups.

The car maker that used to roll out the best looking, best engineered cars of its day at one time is now having a hard time keeping up with fledglings. Their technology is outdated to say the least. Take the LS1 for example. Come on folks, 2 valves per cylinder and pushrods belong in the museum. Don't get me wrong - the LS1 is already a very potent performer. 345hp and 350ft/lbs are no joke. All this with only 2 valves per cylinder, but imagine what it could do with quad cams and 4 valves per cylinder. The ZR1's LT5 had it, and it was ungodly powerful. True, that motor cost a hell of a lot, but that was because GM went exotic on it. Lotus had a big part to play in the development of that motor.

The bottomline remains that GM must make it's engines more technologically advanced. The is a whole lot of life waiting to be breathed into these engines. Other than making motors more powerful, GM will also appeal to the mass market because everyone goes for better technology now.

Just my .02

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'88 IROC 305 TPI
Crappy 700R4 slushbox
Gutted airboxes
180 degree T-stat
Advanced base TPS voltage
Relocated IAT sensor
Momo steering wheel (gotta luv it)
Ram-air setup coming soon
Flowmaster muffler (puke)
Taylor SpiroPro wires
Accel cap and rotor
Ported plenum
Kills: '94 Z28, Olds Aurora V8, bunch of Mustangs, T-birds, ricers, and others who assumed a 12 year-old car would be too slow.

[This message has been edited by 88irocz28 (edited January 24, 2001).]

vortecfcar

you dont need quad cams to make power, they just cost more and offer more things the **** up. Nobody said ford cant build a 5.7Liter engine for the mustang! The new camaros still RAPE the mustangs and we all know how easy it will be to mod the LS1 in a few years.....thats more than can be said for the cobra.

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91 RS W/carbed 350, Vortec heads, performer rpm, Comp cams Xtreme energy 226/230 duration and .477/.480 lift. BFG Drag radials. 3.42 posi,Corvette servoed 700r4, ****ty stock converter. Edelbrock TES, 3inch cat, flowmaster with single 2.5 inch exit.
13.24@104

Vader

Vortec nailed it. When Chevy builds V-8s they tend to leave lots of power on the table. Any dolt with a few tools can make more power with a SBC than the factory built in.

The Ford Romeo (modular) engines are now reaching their maximum potential - just like the small displacement V-6 and V-8 import engines. They make more power per displacement out of the box, but there is relatively little or NO room for improvement.

The SBC, and SBC-II and III engines adhere to the standard GM V-8 "relliability" philosophy. Over-build the size of the engine so that you can under-stress the components and make it last forever. For those of us who are willing to add a little stress, we can make lots more power. There must be a million SBCs out there producing well over 450 HP at the crank, but probably only a handful of Ford modulars that even come close (in their wettest dreams). There are hundreds of documented formulas to make well over 550 HP on a SBC if you want to add some boost, like the ricers and ****-wagens. And don't go off on me about picking on Germans, 'cause I'm an import myself. Daimler Benz would LOVE to offer a 5 or 6 liter engine on every car they built, but they would never sell any because of the vehicle displacement tax structure in Deutschland.

Ford screwed the pooch when they dropped the old standard case castings for cars, and their powerplant engineers must be having nightmares about it constantly. The older 302s and 351s will still stomp the crap out of the Romeo engines in the right hands, since there is a lot more potential. Thumb through the performance parts catalogs and see how many aftermarket parts (real parts - not chrome oil filler caps) are available for the modular engines. Got a balanced stroker kit for that mean 4.6, bud? By comparison, see how many ways there are to build an SBC, and to what power levels. Get the picture now?

Stick with the big pistons and long strokes, and you will go far, Apprentice.

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Later,
Vader
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"I'm gonna talk about some freaky sheet now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
KaleCo Auto Parts

Dan91Z

I like what chevy did with their v-8's.. kept them simple. You can easily modify them, the TPI, LT1, LT4, & LS1 all get good gas mileage for the power they put out, and parts are easy to find, and relatively cheap



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My `91 Z28 Convertible

vortecfcar

Vader comlimented me......Im king of the world!!!!!

Gta-Paladin

We've been getting some good replies to this lets keep it rolling.
I hear the Ls1 engine compartment is like that of a minivan so cramped that it just strays people off unless they have the patience to work with it. I'd love to see GM start making some pavement eaters again i want to see what those technological genius' at Gm goodwrench can pump out. Can you imagine a DOHC ls1? Cmon pontiac you're dropping the firebird... where's the "excitement" the people are talking will you listen?

Dan91Z

i hate cramped engine bays.. at least the camaros aren't as bad as some cars..

the thing i love most about my 88 chevy truck is that you can step up on the front bumper, then step into the engine bay, have a seat on the inner fender well, and work on it while sitting down... almost like having a built in seat

anybody ever see the orange first gen camaro in chevy high performance (or was it hotrod?) called Orange Peel? The only thing in the engine bay on that car was the engine.. the back firewall was completely flat, and everything was orange.. looked great..

hmm.. chevy ought to think about what will happen if they drop the camaro/firebird.. where will their loyal customers go? my guess is most likely to ford since they will still have the mustangs.. just don't seem like good business practice to practicaly give customers away..

who knows.. maybe after a couple more years of studying management/marketing at Nku, i'll be able to see the reasoning behind this.. they could produce less f-bodies in a short time, then convert the plant to produce another vehichle for the rest of the year.. oh well.. just my $.02

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My `91 Z28 Convertible

mtx28

im sick and tired of hearing ford bashed.. poeple find the littlest things and make them out to be horrendous.. something along the lines of ford engines are already at their max.. anyone picked up a hot rod or ford magazine to just see what the enemy has in its arsenal? yea.. ive seen guys that put a turbo on their new mustang.. yea, its blazingly fast too. and dont shoot that idea down bc 'its too expensive' plenty of people on this board have put turbo's on their cars, and twice that many want to have one.. yea... they have the same aftermarket options for their cars too.. intakes, heads, cams, tranny..rear end.. on and on, just like gm cars. dont get me wrong, i will never drive a ford, but dont simply discount it because you dont like it, or because of the fact that camaro's are faster by a minimal amount(speaking of 0-60 times for new ones)..

daniel dekay

why is chevy gonna drop the camaro? do u guy not know the answer here? General Motors Co is just that, a COMPANY. what happens to any product that stops being profitable, it gets axed. what happened to the pinto, got axed. what happened to the 8 track, got axed. Although there are alot of people like you and me who love their cars, maybe too much, we are by far the minority here. if you havent noticed the trend, sport "ute's" are whats "in" now. what would u do if u were in GMs shoes, i dont know about u, but i would axe the camaro and concentrate on what will keep my millions of shareholders happy. this is a business, and if you havent noticed thats just too bad for u. i will be angry as will most of u when the final camaro rolls off the production line, but at least i understand why they did this!

just thought id blow of sum steam, sorry.

daniel

Gta-Paladin

Nah, if GM put some effort into it they could make a mint off of the f-bodies and we all know it. A new body and maybe some more power *grin*... Gm seems to forget that WOMEN can carry a veichle on their own... they purchase a large amount of sports cars... mostly v6's but that's not the point if GM made the F-body appeal a little more to women im sure they'd be buying more. Also the orange camaro was in hot-rod it's sitting in my bathroom upstairs Great reading material.

Gta-Paladin

Mtx all my buddies drive stangs s o i know they are very formidable opponents there are v6 turbos running high 11's at sea on cheater slicks THAT is still pretty damn fast

Dan91Z

It is not good practice for any company to get rid of one of it's flagship products, even if it's not doing to well on the market and they are taking a loss. They should try everything they can to breath new life into the product and reduce losses. Some ways of doing this include special promotions, targeted advertisements, refinement, and most importantly, customer input. They simply need to appeal to a wider market, and make their product stand out from the rest. The market for sports cars is on a slight comeback, and the SUV market is slowing, not by much though. This leaves chevrolet with only the corvette, it's main flagship vehichle, which has a limited production and growing competition. I guess management at GM don't mind losing their market share in a market due for a comeback.

I feel that I have wasted enough of everybody's time for today, so i'll set marketing aside.

How would you all react to a front wheel driv V-6 camaro? I don't realy like the thought of it, but oh well.


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My `91 Z28 Convertible

theformula

I agree MTX. The chevy small block is not superior to it..much less anything else.

This is a little off subject.....but....If you want impressive, take a look at the Toyota Supra twin turbo.
The supra and Nissan 300zx tt drivetrains can both handle up to 800hp. And yes, I personally know 2 owners who are running this on fully streetable cars. There is no way the chevy stock bottom end from the factory could ever handle that Craig Paisley has a 1997 Toyota Supra twin turbo. 100% stock engine. 50,000 miles. Heads have never been off the car. All bolt ons. He runs 8.10@165mph. Yes, he has bigger turbos and intercoolers...but this is a 3.0 liter we are talking about. Those of you in jersey have probably seen him run at Englishtown. The car is still steel..no aluminum or carbon fiber anywhere.

Oh yea, did I mention his car is registered and insured and passes emissions? Check out this link. This is when he ran high 8s http://www.turbomagazine.com/archive/toc0200.html

point is..GM is far behind in technlology. Want a perfect example? The 300zx utilized distribtorless ignitions back in 1990!

EDIT: Oh yea, by the way..there is no way a stock engined chevy small block could ever crank out 8s with just boost. So don't even try to use that one fellas. not the TPI, not the LT1, LT4, LS1, and not the LS6.

[This message has been edited by theformula (edited January 25, 2001).]

Godti

I got a reply back from Pontiac, about the rumour of killing the Firebird, and they said it was just that, a rumour. Unless of course the customer service people are in a habit of lying now.

As far as the company taking a loss, I think it should take one for the team and lower the prices of the F-bodies about 3-5 grand, Im sure that would help immensely. As for the Supra, look at the base price compared to the Pustangs and the F-bodies.



[This message has been edited by Godti (edited January 25, 2001).]

87z28

As far as modding 4.6's in the august 2000 issue of hot rod they have a little article about "Bolting on 130 horsepower to your mustang GT". This "bolt on" consisted of heads, induction, and a blower.To make a long story short they had to remove the engine, by dropping it from the bottom of the car, neccesitating the removal of all front suspention pieces and also a custom made cradel. How many backyard mechanics do you think could pull off an operation like that? Anyway after all that work the car was able to produce 248hp at 5700 and 280ft-lbs at 4000 on the chasis dyno. To me this just doesnt seem worth it. But thats me, and I'm used the SBC. After bolting on the blower the car made horsepower eqivilent to that of a stock LS1 with cold air lid and cat back, and needless to say put a big smile on my face.

kjgroen

Thats ok ford overates there HP they always have and always will, Great for marketing. Wait and see real world results. Just like the cobra r..They did all those modifications and is still weighs the same as a basically stock vette, no options annoyinly loud, too pricey and hardly available to the average joe. Yet is still preforms under the vette. Thats a crock Ford Blows....

355 IROC-Z

point is..GM is far behind in technlology. Want a perfect example? The 300zx utilized
distribtorless ignitions back in 1990!

well, i do believe that gm used distributorless ignitions in there 4 and 6 cyl. engines well before 1990. i do agree to a point on being behind on technology alittle. yes, gm still uses the basic block design, utilizing push rods and in block cams of a few decades ago but i would be tickled to have an LS1 sitting under the hood of my car.

ede

355 irocz yeah it was 85 or so that i saw/owned the new DFI from gm. not sure how "the formula" figures the imports were ahead of gm on that one. must be that new math i keep hearing about. fact of the matter is most products out of japan are copies, clones, or improvements on our own products and designs. very few "new" ideas come from across the water.

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ICON Motorsports

1st & 3rd

crazeinc

I'm sorry...I have a lot of loyalty and faith in chevy products, but that is truly incredible what those 2 imports can do.

[This message has been edited by crazeinc (edited January 25, 2001).]

maniacc

There is a guy that lives in my area, and in the summer he cruises around in his cobra-R,

why would anyone want one of these things, no stereo, a/c, or back seats, and a shopping cart handle for a spoiler....all this for a small price of $64,000....

later

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MÅN¡ÅÇ ©
88 IROC 5.7L,edelbrock TES,random tech cat,borla exhaust,chip,sfc,accel wires,airfoil,k&n's,ETC..
and NOW supercharged!!!
http://maniac.megamania.com

Vader

My point exactly. An for the 800HP Suckra, I guess you've never seen a 1.400 HP SBC, but there are a few in Indiana. No the stock bottom end components of a SBC won't handle it, but the design will. That's what I said earlier. There's no secret to HP, but if youcan get 800HP from 3.0 litres, I can get well over 1,400 from 5.7. Do the math, count your cubes, then get back to me...

BTW - Does Toyota make a 5-second engine?

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Later,
Vader
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"I'm gonna talk about some freaky sheet now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
KaleCo Auto Parts

big tex

Could someone remind me if I am on the "thirdgen.org" site or the "give in to the ford mustang aftermarket.org" site. I know I haven't been here for long, but come on, I have been reading what some of you guys have had to say and I am getting sick. Come on now, a good gm will always beat a pony. And that all there is to it.

¢2

Vader

MTX,

If it looks like an apple, smells like an apple, and tastes liek an apple, then I'll call it an apple. (I calls 'em like I sees 'em.)

If you read the comments I made, I said that the 4.6L was at or near potential. There are a sum total of TWO aftermarket heads available for this engine. There are well over 50 available for the SBC. The same goes for cranks, pistons, rods, cams, etc. Comp Cams has a grand total of ZERO replacement camshafts for the SVO/Cobra engine, and about 400 for the SBC. Every boy who has a Cobra has the same engine as every other boy. You just can't make that many variations. The older Windsors and EE engines will continue to trounce the tinker-toy mills until there's no iron left. And those are just the FORD engines that will beat the Cobra. My "wimpy" little SBC has made more than one little snake go completely limp, and it's a daily driver, emissions legal, and pushes a 4,400 pound land yacht. I could take out the tire and stuff an entire Cobra in the trunk as a spare. The same power in a 3,500 pount 'F' body would hurt the snake even more.

Yes, the Corbas are pretty quick, but they're no rocket. Most of the millions of ThirdGens out thee are in the same situation. But the ThirdGen owner has the option of doubling horsepower output for the cost of a near-empty checkbook. The Cobras would have a lot larger bill for a lot less net power. That was the main subject.

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Later,
Vader
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"I'm gonna talk about some freaky sheet now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
KaleCo Auto Parts

theformula

I don't doubt 1400hp can come from a 5.7l. But you will not achieve it without EXTENSIVE modifications to the engine.

By the way, the 800hp supra is not Craig Paisleys. Craigs is now around 960 (8.1@165mph)

The point is, these import guys are achieving hp numbers very close to 1000rwhp on a STOCK 3.0 liter. Show me a factory stock 5.7liter that can do that with just bolt ons.We already know the LT1/LT4/LS1/LS6 can't do it because they can't run as high boost because of their compression.


[This message has been edited by theformula (edited January 25, 2001).]

85F-body

i know i want the bigger bulky engins to come back engins like the ls6 (the chevele engin) and other huge engins like that to come back i mean who gives a **** about emmision laws or if so make it barely legal also ford has a 504 engin and now they are stopping damn camaro's how do they expect to keep a buisness

jms

iTrader: (1)

Guys, what modern technology is being discussed? Overhead cams?

Sorry guys---overhead cams first appeared in 1902-3-4, something like that in the Fiat. Big old road monsters that raced even at Indy in the early years.

Overhead cam engines-Offy's, a copy of a design from the 1920s. Many others had 'em,too.

Modern technology?

GM had the overhead cam 6 cylinder in the mid '60s. Modern technology?

Just because it is 'modern' doesn't make it better, it just means something 'new' to sell.
jms

Chvywolf

I think there will always be a beef between ford and chevy owners. Me personaly, i have and 89 Camaro Convertible that i will never sell, but i'm also working on a 66 Mustang that i have a 5.0 HO 302 i'm dropping in it this weekend. It's a project car right know. I would never sell that one either. Their are going to be some of you saying Good god why own a Ford. Reason, because i like it and it's mine.

My 2 cents.

black84ta

you guys think those ford cobras suck huh? i guess youve never read muscle mustangs and fast fords. the fastest 4.6 mustang is running 7s in the 1/4 now. the fastest one using the stock bottom end is in the 8s.

vortecfcar

If I built a small block chevy powered car for 30,000 Ill build you a bottom end to handle 1000HP.......have you seen the price of a DOHC 4.6......its something like 15,000. You import/ford supporters are hiding behind every rock you can find. I wonder how much that guy with the "stock" supra spent to run 8's...must be a lot or every other supra on the street would run 8s.

Godti

You have to take the price difference into affect. The price you pay for a supra, you can buy your f-body, and have a good chunk of money left to do some good mods.

91Bird305

Some mods? Sh*t u have enough do to A LOT of mods.

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Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

Steve89GTA

Don't get me wrong..but I was at ST.Thomas Dragway in Ontario Canada and I saw a Rustang from J&P Performance do 7.53 in the quarter!..yes, the quarter mile! Twin turbo and nos.
I've gained a new respect for these cars and yes...they can be made to go fast!


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89 GTA
305 TPI
WC 5spd w/3.45 rear
Accel Cap & 8mm Taylor's
MSD6A Ignition
Accel Supercoil
Custom Cold Air Induction
Jet Airfoil
K&N Airfilter
160 deg stat/fan switch
Hypertech Thermomaster Chip
Steel Rad
Cat back 3" Exhaust
HiGh FlOw Dynomax Cat

theformula

You get what you pay for

ede

i've had enough of this and i think
Mr.bigtex is way over his limit from reading his last post. this has sort of drifited away from what this board is here for, asking and answering questions.

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ICON Motorsports

1st & 3rd