icebird_1981

k i need some help from u guys since 2 mechanics cant figure it out. first i will start from the beginning> i got a 350 with a 350 tranny, about 2 weeks ago my car started to grind when i turn it on. so my mechanic changed the starter, it still did not sound right, so i check the fly wheel and it was missing some teeth, so i it replaced at a diffrent shop. but it still grinded. then i went and took the starter back and got the end part with the teeth replaced because there were scrapped down. put it on with new teeth and it still grinded. went back to the people who put on my plate and they look and u can see that the starter teeth are not close enough to hit the plat just barley touching it. so i went back to the next mechanic and told him that it was the wrong starter the teeth dont come close enough to the flex plate. he says that all starter has same size teeth. so he put on a bigger starter for a truck>it still grinded(not close enough) and then goes on to tell me that the flex plate is not right. so i went back to the other shop and tell them whats going on. they say it was the same size as the one they took out. so we counted the teeth of the new and old one >both came to the same # i think it was 167>not sure though. they say its the wrong starter in the car again. then they call a starter place and they say that there is 2 types of starter one cast iron and one alluminum and i need the cast iron. so he calls to order it but they are closed so i go to come home and the car wont start starter just spins. u could hear it just missing the plate. so anyway tomorrow the guy is going to try the other starter.
now i dont think none of them got a clue about these cars?> what flex plate and starter do i need???? i have been going though this stuff for 2 weeks now and i really need my car.

sry for being so long. PLEASE HELP ME!
thanks
jason
oh the car is a 83 z28

gmsmallblockguy

Man I hate to say it without actually meeting the guys but it sounds like you have some idiots working on your car.
It sounds like they were to lazy or hungover to take the time to check allignment and shim the first replacement. That would likely have saved you the cost of the flexplate and 2nd starter.

Dude you could have already bought the book and tools and a used satarter for what you have likely paid out for this botch job.
If I were you I would either find a better shop or make the guys that toasted your flexplate pay for all the additional repairs.

The starter you have now would probably be fine with 2-3 shims on the outer bolt between the starter and block.

icebird_1981

shims dont do nothing though just makes it worse> the teeth 2 the starter just dont come in close enough to the flex plate.

gmsmallblockguy

A comon missconception is that hte teeth cannot be brought in closer with shims. This is not true. Shimming the outside only will bring the teeth closer.
Are you saying the teeth on the starter are not moving towards the back of the vehicle far enough? Or is it lined up with the axis of the flex plate but just not close enough to mesh?

icebird_1981

it comes out and lines up with it fine> but the teeth on the starter are just not long enough to go in the flex plate teeth, just barley touches it.

Vader

Your 350 block casting doesn't have "The Problem", does it? You know the one - where the starter bolt holes were machined too far from the crank centerline. "The Problem" occurred in several production runs in the late '70s and early '80s. You can usually spot it by the evidence of too little casting material around the outer starter bolt hole. "It" happens...

icebird_1981

oh ok that explains alot, so how do i fix it? what should i tell them? i mean can i just get new holes drilled to line up right? any ideas at all would help alot.
thanks

ede

agreed, shimming only one hole will move the starter closer to the fly wheel, and as Mr. vader pointed out the mounting holes could be drilled a bit too far away, but i'll bet on the shim.

gmsmallblockguy

This is a bad quick drawing but take a quick look and you'll see how you can correct this with shims.

icebird_1981

thanks for the idea, were would i be with out this site lol. anyway i am going there in like 30 min to see whats up with them trying the new starter. i am going to tell them to try shimming just on hole.

thanks people

RB83L69

If they're putting starters on it that are part # 3510, have them put a 4347 on it instead. This starter will require 2 different length starter bolts, one long and one short, instead of the 3510's 2 identical medium-length bolts.

Incidentally, starters MUST be installed with starter bolts, which are special, they have a sort of knurled and enlarged shank just below the threads that acts as a "dowel pin" to positively locate the starter on the block at the correct spot. Regular bolts WILL NOT work right.

Shimming the outer hole works, but is not the best thing to do, since it keeps the starter from being in full contact with the block. The bolts almost always eventually loosen. However, if they can do that and force it to work, then you know for sure that your block has The Problem, and that you therefore need to go get the right starter and bolts.

I don't know where you got your block from; but if it seemed to be in good shape, somebody had had it in their car running, and you bought it for seemingly a real good deal and there was nothing really wrong with it as far as rings or bearings or needing bored or whatever, then it was probably because the previous owner was tired of futzing around trying to overcome The Problem. You'd be amazed how commonly this happens.

gmsmallblockguy

That's some really good info RB83L69 I never knew about the problem with the block. Are there specific castings or years that were effected?

I allways just figured the starters/blocks were inconsistant or ran too high of a varrience so I have allways used shims. I find that suspension shims for a-frame suspension work well and as far as the bolts comming loose after a few of them with that problem rather than over torque them I just put a small dab of red loctite on the 4-5 end threads.

A remote start switch comes in handy and even better is just hooking up a switch to the solenoid to check allignment without spinning the starter which can chew up flywheels.

After doing so many I've come to just having a good eye for it and have actually changed out starters in a few cars by the roadside in under 15 miutes or less with hand tools.

Reguardless this guy has some not so good mechanics working on his starter. Something like that would just be unacceptable to me.
Of course one of my pet peevs is paying a "pro" for a job and getting it done worse than I could do myself.
If you want it done right do it yourself just rolls arround in my head while thinking "why did I give them my money to screw my stuff up"

RB83L69

The Problem first appeared in the early 70s some time. Blocks as old as about 71 may have it. It seems that there was some small number of gang-drill&tap machines at their block factory, maybe 3 or 4 of them total, that every single block casting was processed by; and one of them, judging by the percentage of blocks out there that were affected, apparently developed some sort of tolerance issue, that drilled the starter bolt pattern in the wrong place. As far as I know, all Chevy blocks made during that time were affected; all castings, all engine sizes. It seems to be Chevy blocks only. The 454 in my 74 Caprice convertible had it so bad that when I saw it sitting in the car lot and stopped and wanted to test drive it, it madde that awful noise and wouldn't start; they jumped it from another car and still couldn't get it to start that way, so they boosted it with a car starter on top of that, and finally got it to start up. I went ahead and bought it (wwwaaaaayyyyyy too cheap I might add) knowing exactly what was wrong, just from that horrible grinding sound that these always make. I put a better battery in it until I could get the special starter, and with the extra juice, it literally broke the starter right off the block. Broke the nosepiece in two. That's how much mis-applied force is involved.

One friend of mine had a 76 K-5 Blazer that he bought new, and started having trouble with it right away. Finally in about 84 or so he took my advice and bought the 4347, and was utterly shocked. He said he had never, ever heard his truck start like that, not even sitting on the dealer's lot, didn't know it was even possible, it spun over so quietly and fast.

You start seeing listings in old Delco replacement parts catalogs in the mid 70s with all kinds of real weird things, that look like obvious fleet customer complaint resolution. Things like 73 taxicabs with 396 and Powerglide, get this special starter listed for them (looks alot like Yellow Cab); vans with 6-cylinders and Turbo 400 (probably phone companies); etc. etc. The other starter moved the starter drive over about 1/8" closer to the crank.

GM finally figured out what it was sometime around 1980 and fixed it, or maybe they just bought new machines without ever knowing what the real cause was, I don't know. It went away about that time though. It was just one quality control problem of many that they had with castings in the 70s. The Lifter Problem is another typical one, where one or more lifter bores don't point at the cam so the block just eats cams no matter what you do. Because of all these things, I'm real leery of buying 70s blocks, and especially so when I see one that there's not really anything obviously wrong with, the owner is just selling. Took it out and replaced it even though it was running. Just doesn't want it any more. That's a good sign that it has one of those issues, and he's sick of having trouble with it.

So next time you see a Chevy vehicle sitting in a parking lot that won't start, and it makes that terrible grinding, you now will know from 400 yards away exactly what's wrong with it and how to fix it.

icebird_1981

the starter 4347 do i just call any parts store and ask for that part>i am in canada if that makes any diffrence. oh another thing i noticed today is that there is not just 2 screw holes but 3. one trate across and the other on an angle.

icebird_1981

well after spending another today at the shop we finaly got it working perfect. and guess who came up with the idea? ME!!! no mechanics. what i did was file both holes over (slotted it) and moved the starter a bit over. and there we go PERFECT START!!! i just wish i though of this a couple days ago. oh well if any one has this problem block>there is your sulution.

RB83L69

The starter will move back away..... basically, you just ruined a nosepiece. It'll be back like it was within a couple of weeks.

icebird_1981

no we put this special stuff that is ment to hold bolts in place. i would rather do this then have that stupid grinding noise and i cant get that other starter, i went though about 5 starters already, it was this or i buy a new flex plate all the time. and we only slotten it a bit.

MrDude_1

this reminds me.


every 400 SBC ive built has had that prob... ive had to shim it.

icebird_1981

those 400 block do u happen to know the block casting #?

89v6firebird89

u might check if the fear on the starter is ground down we had that problem on our 454 during winter

SBlackfoot

Threadlocker.

icebird_1981

ya thats it. spells like cherrys

radiateu2

Like RB said, It will move on you. Threadlocker will not keep the starter from slipping. Elongating the hole seems like a solution but temporary at best. The sheer force and torque that the starter applies will eventually force the starter away from the flywheel or flexplate no matter how tight you torque the starter bolts.

good luck though

icebird_1981

ya i figue it would over time but there really is nothing else i can do. trust me i spent days and went through alot of starters, if it does come loose i will just get back under and fix it again, only takes like a couple min, is there anything i can do to make it not move?

oh i got another question i ment to ask before, k sometimes when i start her it feels like its just not getting enough power, it sounds like your trying to start a car with a dead bat. but if i let go and try again it goes fine. the bat is bran new, any ideas what causes that?

gmsmallblockguy

yes you can make it not movebut it won't be easy. You have to fill the gap in the now slotted hole with something like strips of steel in such a way as to not let them spin arround and to be removeable. As far as your starting issue there can be many causes I will list them and you can eliminate most from what you have allready done.

Starter gear meshing with the flywheel to hard

weak connection ie ground or hot to the starter corroded or loose the first crank can cause it to temporarily weld a decent connection

weak engine block ground

worn out ignition switch

worn out solenoid on the starter

weak battery/alternator

Something else draining power

dry bearrings get lubed a bit after a few cranks the move freely


That's all that comes to mind right now maybe someone else will think of other possible causes.

RB83L69

Been there, done that. As I posted above, The Problem has been around for 30 years now; you're not the first to think of doing stuff like that, won't be the last, and I doubt it will succeed any better in your case than anyone else's that's tried it. Guess how I know.

But good luck anyway, I hope it quits harassing you; all the same, I'll bet money you'll be right back where you were yesterday in about 2 or 3 weeks.