Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Here's the deal. At Englishtown, I just ran 4 strange runs:
1st run 13.9 @ 98 w/ a 2.0 60ft
2nd run 13.6 @ 104.3 w/ a 2.0 60ft
3rd run 13.5 @ 99 w/ a 1.9 60 ft
4th run 13.6 @ 100 w/ a 1.9 60 ft.
Here's the deal. First, How do I go from a 13.9 @ 98 to a 13.6 @ 104? That's 6mph difference or 60 hp. I only got 3 tenths better. Then I ran a 13.5 which is a tenth better at only 99mph. I lost 5 mph and went faster, probably due to the 60 ft. I have run a 102mph at a different track in worse conditions, so I know the 104 is not a mistake. Both the board and the time slip said this, and I was at englishtown. Besides, check out my webpage in my sig, the car has a ton of mods. Which brings up my other question, shouldn't I be running 105-108mph w/ my mods and high 12's at least????
It seems as if the car runs well sometimes, but most of the time it runs crappy up top. It's like, sometimes the computer pulls the car back, and sometimes it just goes. I can feel the difference. The track conditions were all the same. 80 degees, 29 baromiter. What's going on? DSon't forget I think I can run a 13.2 w/a better 60 ft. I have gone 1.85 on street radials, so I think I can get a high 1.7 or low 1.8. But even so, I shoiuld get at least a 13.3 @ 100. But, if I run my 104, like I know the motor can, and get a good 1.8 60 ft, I should be in the high 12's easy. So what's the deal. How come the car won't run a high mph consitantly. I've tried a lot of stuff, but I can't get it to work. Also, the car has a tendancy to ping a little up top, w/ 94 octane in it. I can't figure that out either, because the motor is only 9.3:1 compression. I think I'm getting plenty of fuel. Pressure doesn't drop, volume is ok.
Anyway, PLEASE give some input and post any questions that you need ansered here. Thanks a lot --Justin

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls! "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

[This message has been edited by Justin 87 GTA (edited July 24, 2000).]

TomP

Here's my shot... did you run the car right after you got to E-town? And were they packed (as usual), so you had to wait 1/2 hour before you could do your second run?

I'm going for the motor being hot...

-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.v6fbody.com mailbags

TRAXION

I need to see some Diacom runs. Sounds like your 'puter may be pulling out A LOT of timing due to knock retard. Do you have any WOT runs stored on Diacom or some other scan tool?

tim

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TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.587 @ 107.97mph (1.710 60ftr)
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End.
Gunning for NA 11's with the MiniRam II and Hooker LT Headers.

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Well, I let it cool for a while each time, even when I got there. But, the second time the intake was iced, and the car was cooled w/ water on the radiator, I think it that helped some. So, the computer, may have worked better w/ a cooler motor . The car pulls like all hell in the winter and doesn't really ping. Either way, thiough, I still should be a little faster.
TRAXION, as far as diacom and what not, I have absolutely no access to anything of the sort. I wish I had a way to test that. It would probably tell a lot. Other thoughts?
Thanks a mil. --Justin
BTW, i tried pullin the knock sensor, a long time ago for 1 run only, but it didn't seem to help. Maybe the car is losing power due to the pinging. Maybe the timing curve or fuel curve is wrong in the chip. timing is 6 base to 24 total I belive. Maybe the computer is staying in open loop for some runs or some type of mode??????
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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com



[This message has been edited by Justin 87 GTA (edited July 24, 2000).]

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

You should have more than 24ş total advance, more like 34ş... Sounds like you're pinging. Try adding some octane booster to your tank next time at the track. I went from 14.1 @ 99 to 13.32 @ 105.5 after adding some NOS octane boost. But my compression is about 10.3:1, I need it!

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1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed
13.25 @ 107.18 MPH
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Webmaster: SoCal F-Bodies
Webmaster: ICON Motorsports

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I'm pinging a little, but I can't figure out why. What is that NOS ocatane boost and where do you get it. Will that 104+ octane boost stuff work? I once added a little race gas and upped the octane by a few points but it really didn't seem to help much, but that was a long time ago. I'm not sure if it was even pinging back then. I may have had a different intake on then. I'll give it a shot. But, doesn't higher ocatane fule have a slower combustion rate, and thus negate any possible gains? In other words, it's like solving one problem (stoping ping), just to get another problem, worse combustion. What do you think? any other ideas? thanks

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

The same thing happened to me when I had my 83 Z. After the car cooled down, I'd pick up
4-5 mph from out of the clear blue sky. I always thought I had some type of alternator voltage problem, but it checked out fine. If you don't already have one, run a manual switch to your coolant temp switch in the cylinder head, and turn it on once you get to the track. The more consistent you can make the conditions, the better.

Play with your fuel pressure and timing, and you should run faster.

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

A switch to the coolent temp for what? What would I be trying to do? Thanks

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

TTA850

Scince I'm trying to help Justin I'd like to get in on this too.My thoughts are that he should be able to advance the timing to at least 10-12* initial.

My expirience comes from racing my 89 GTA that went 13.7@99 with the same bacic setup minus the heads,intake,converter,and 3.45's(I had 3.27's and feel his car should be good for high 12's).I was able to run 12* initial with no KR and the factory 9.5:1 CR.

My thoughts are that the chip programming may be off,maybe too little fuel or too much timing,not sure but thats where I think we are having a problem as the rest of the car is mechanicly sound.

Question?I have my factory 89 5.7 chip and a chip TPIS burnt for my GTA,do you think we will have a problem and is it worth it to try them in his car?BTW I noticed no gain in performance with either chip,only a smoother idle with the TPIS.

We have no Diacom software yet,but I hope to have a laptop soon so we will definatly be getting that one hoked up to the car.

We were running FP at around 43-44# and thats where the car seemed to run best(picked up 6mph going from 50-43).However,I feel that we should definatly see more if we could turn up the timing.

What type of plugs are you guys using?? I'd just like to explore every option here and would like to see what you recomend.

Traction was a limiting factor too,he was running my drag radials and couldn't hook for **** with them.Funny cause my GTA was able to manage 1.78 60fts with them.However next time I'd like for him to use my ET Streets that are on my TTA now.Hope that helps as your ET is all in your 60ft.That still doesn't explain the loss of hp though(ie 98-104-99-100???).

Ok,I'm done.I've taken up enough space for now.
Later,
Steve

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TTA#850,bone stock,best 13.68@100
TTA#861,near stock,best 12.15@112.95
89 GTA,nowhere near stock,soon to be low 10's

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Octane boost is the stuff you buy in a bottle from Pep Boys or Autozone. You can use 104+, thats a good one too. I used the NOS version because it was the only one that said "7 points", the rest were "3 points". For your car, I'd get a bottle of the "3 point" stuff and pour it in when you get to the track. Or, race once or twice first, then pour it in, and race again to see if it helps.

askulte

Regarding the octane boosters -

one point increase = 0.1 increase in octane
10 points = octane bumped up by one

All those octane boosters that say they raise your octane by 7 points, well, you're better off filling up with Sunoco Ultimate 94 for $1.89 a gallon.

Try to get a diacom on there to check for knock retard. It'll really slow ya down, and you might not even know. If you get another chance (go to LID or Island, much less crowded) try running your tank pretty close to empty, and filling up with 104 unleaded. That should eliminate any detonation you might have had.



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Andris Skulte
Skulte Performance Designs
Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo
http://www.skulte.com

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Believe it or not, all I run is 94 octane. I think what Steve is saying makes a lot of sense. But, I have to get rid of the ping. Still, what is up w/ the mph? Any other ideas?

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Hey Andris,

I knew about the octane boost being only .7 octane, but the highest octane we can get from the pump in CA is 92. Or I could pay $4 a gallon for the 100 octane stuff. The bottle says it treats 20 gallons, I've only got about 5 gallons in my tank when I race, so its 4 times the dosage. I dont know what that works out to realistically, but I know it works for me. I get lots of knock/ping without using octane booster, and very little with it. So it was just a suggestion to see if he's getting knocking and/or pinging.
You are right that he needs a scan tool to see if he's really getting knock, or false knock.

TTA850

Octane boost aside,he has 9.3:1 CR and 6* initial timing,there is no reason for him to have knock.Now,the question is what else could be causing knock to happen??I think if we could get rid of the knock,get the FP and timing where they should be,and put the power down,we should see at least a 12.9@105.

Side note:I ran 12* initial on my GTA with 93 octane and fp set at 48,no KR at all.Motor had 9.5:CR.

Steve

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TTA#850,bone stock,best 13.68@100
TTA#861,near stock,best 12.15@112.95
89 GTA,nowhere near stock,soon to be low 10's

D_Amlee

Justin: I also agree that hot/cold engine temps can really have an impact on your time. You said it yourself: the second run was the one where you let it cool off, and iced the plenum. I have personally measured a 0.5 second ET change just from letting the engine cool. All that mass of aluminum on the top end REALLY has an impact on the incoming air charge, and you can loose or gain a TON of power if the engine temp changes. This is where the fan switch comes in. I've got dual fan switches on my IROC, this lets me force the cooling fans on while sitting in the staging lanes, rather than wait until the motor hits 200 F before the 'puter turns them on.

Knocking: This can also have a devastating effect on power. Knock once, loose four degrees of timing. Knock twice, loose almost ten. If you loose ten degrees of timing (it only takes about 1/2 second of knocking to convince the computer to yank out ten degrees) you can kiss all your power goobye.

Focus on engine cooling to maintain consistency, and on octane or timing to prevent knocking.

Failure to hook: Your cam duration and medium-length runners on that SR give you lots of bottom end torque. You really need to stay with the drag radials in order to have any hope at all at consistent runs. If you go to cheaper tires, your 60 foot times will start to vary all over the map due to spinning the wheels.

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, but how did I run the same ET w/ almost the same 60 ft, W/ a difference of 6 mph?????
Also, believe it or not, I used to pull 1.85 60 ft's on 255/50/16 STREET RADIALS!!!!!
And, as far as the knock, why the hell am I getting any pinging or knocking on a motor like this??
I do agree w/ you though on the temp factor. I guess it is really important. Thanks --Justin

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Anybody??

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

Matt98SS

you have to KNOW for sure if you have Knock Retard (KR) on passes or not

you have to get a hold of a scan tool, Tech 1, AutoXray, Diacom or something. so you can see your timing, O2s, KR, coolant temp, etc.

if you don't have this....you are just stabbing in the dark.

I am sure the car is getting some KR. I would not waste the $7 for a can of octane booster, get 2-3 gallons of 100 octane unleaded and add it to your tank....if you run more consistant or faster then you know it is octane related KR. if you still have KR with the blend of race/pump gas...then I would look for false knock somewhere. Usually it is exhuast banging on something.

is your distributor tight? if it is not 100% tight it will move a bit here and there and that could be a reason why.

Matt

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Thank Matt, looks like that's what I'll have to do. That seems to be a good place to start. It makes sense too. Thanks a lot! --Justin

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

Matt98SS

no problem man...hard to know what it wrong with out a scan tool of some sort

good luck....

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

To furhter prove that, I've been trying to figure this out for atleast a year and a half. Not having any fun either. --Justin

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

TTA850

Matt,I've ridden in the car and it is definatly not false knock.It,for some unknown reason,has a case of preignition.

Unkown because if you do the math 9.3:1 compression(and aluminum heads)plus 94(or even 93)octane gas should not knock.With the aluminum heads he should be able to run 10.5-11:1 compression(my race motor has 10.2:1 and is fine on 94).

I know that we need to get a scan tool to really see what it is doing,and hopefully we will soon but untill then I'd like some idea on what would cause this(keep in mind it is not octane related and the initial is 6*)and will my chips work cause that is the next thing I wanna try.

Later,
Steve

P.S. Justin,sorry I didn't get a chance to call you back(finished at 8:30)but I'd like to say the transbrake is the best investment I've made so far,11's here I come!!!!

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TTA#850,bone stock,best 13.68@100
TTA#861,near stock,best 12.15@112.95
89 GTA,nowhere near stock,soon to be low 10's

Justin 87 GTA

iTrader: (3)

Well, it would be nice to figure it out now, before I scan it. Who knows when I'll be able to do that.
Steve,
Give me a ring tonight. And, remember, w/ that transbrake, you are not aloud to run 11's if I haven't hit 12's. LOL
I guess you tried it and it works well though, huh? I wonder if I could use one. Later

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Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. Best mph: 104.3 *This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!* "If you want to have a fast car, hang out w/ those who do!"
http:// www.community.webtv.net/munks87/JustinsGTApage.com

fbodyking

Wow, those are great times.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

[Justin 87 GTA--organizer: "NY2K" Gathering. Blk/Gld w/Superam, 355cid Trickflows, forged pistons 9.5:1. Auto 2,600 stall, 3.45 9 bolt disc, Best time & mph 13.567 @ 101.900 w/ a poor 60ft. This car is 100% NYS emissions legal, w/ all emissions controls!]

Are those 64cc heads? If so, did you buy dished pistons?
If not, you don't have 9.5 comp. It would be closer to 10.-1.
I built one here ('86 Camaro w/MAF) with about the same combo:
355,TF heads,TPIS cam, flat top pistons(10.3 to 1)SR,52mm TB,3.45's, T-5 Trans etc.
His best to date is 12.9 @ 109.64 (2.10 60')also 100% Ca. legal.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Justin 87 GTA, off the top of my head three things come to mind: quench, spark plugs, and chip. If the quench is greater then 55 thou an engine starts becoming more detonation prone.

Are the spark plugs the proper reach and seat, and more importantly cold enough (heat range). Do the plugs look overheated?

What are you using for the ECM chip? Aftermarket, custom (DIY) or stock. I would imagine that a Superram would need at least some MAF table tweaking to run well.

RBob.

jimmy_mac

So what do the electrodes on the spark plugs look like after a run. I assume you are pulling them right after make these runs to see if they are showing lean.

RB83L69

You do of course realize that the original post is 3 and a half years old.... talk about bringing one back from the dead...

jimmy_mac

ahahahahhahaha, oh man I didn't even look at the date on the original, it was just a thread on the first page, that is funny.

I wonder if he ever worked out his issue

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That is too funny RB83L69. I'd venture to say that fbodyking got me. Didn't even notice how old the original was. . .

Live and learn,

RBob.