iceman02

iTrader: (1)

What's the deal with these flow numbers and these heads? I got this out of the Scoggin-Dickey catalog. They are the Pro Action Iron Lightning 23* Iron heads and they have them listed for $217 a piece (bare). The flow numbers they list kick the crap out of almost every other head they have listed and they're only $434 a Pair???

Lift Intake Exhaust

Pro Action Iron Lightning
.100.........70.....57
.200........146...100
.300........205...157
.400........250...177
.500........264...186
.600........272...190
.700........282...195

Brodix Aluminum Track 1 (ported) $1,320 pair
.100........64......55
.200.......116.....98
.300.......167....138
.400.......213....163
.500.......252....175
.600.......263....179
.700.......266....181

L31 Vortec
.100........70......48
.200.......139....101
.300.......190....129
.400.......227....140
.500.......239....147

Fast Burn Aluminum heads $569.50 each
.100........62......45
.200.......129.....85
.300.......173....120
.400.......209....143
.500.......230....157
.600.......235....166

Mark A Shields

That's why I and ME Leigh , just ordered a set for ourselves.

Got mine for $730 delivered and assembled.

Kingtal0n

But they arnt alunminum!

Mark A Shields

You can get them in aluminum, for a little more.

You save 60 lbs with the aluminum ones.

Vader

I've been pointing out the raw flows on these heads for over a year. They get even better with a little port work. If you want some performance feedback, you might want to try to contact Box 'O Rocks. I think he's had some for about that long.

The only thing is that these are Austrailian castings, so do you think they might have upside-down cooling flow instead of normal or reverse-cooling¿?

As always, you should make sure the flow volume AND velocity are what you really need for your engine.

Kingtal0n

where do i find velocity #'s vs other velocity #'s I would like a set of those heads (if they would work) in aluminum but cannot compromise streetability, since thats my main goal.

Blackroc86

Where did you find the flow numbers for the other heads? Off the Pro Action site? You can find many different flow numbers for each set of heads on the net. Who knows which ones are accurate.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Aluminum? Where did you get yours? I was looking to get a set of AFR 195, but these heads are looking better and better all the time. And now they make them in aluminum?

Mark A Shields

I forget the site for aluminum ones, expect to pay around $1100 for them, I got iron ones, I believe someone posted a link to al ones on this board or the review board.

Karps TA

iTrader: (2)

I have the Iron ones. From all the research I could find, which isn't much, the flow numbers shown are very close to actuals that people have seen. That sold me on them. I ended up buying them unassembled and had a local speed shop assemble them. It was still damn cheap.

I was hoping to have either dyno numbers or track numbers to offer people but ever since my T5 finally died in August I just have not had the urge to work on the car anymore. I'm burnt out.

84TAProject

Are those numbers true? Seems way to good after I plugged it in Desktop Dyno. Numbers seem very high. Do they flow that well? If I was to place a set of those on my car with like 10:1 compression it yeilds me something along the lines of 400 horse even, over 320 with my current heads. Are they really THAT good. Hell, itd be worth the money to get a 50 horse gain on the motor. I built one hell of a beast with those heads and a blower on the program.

iceman02

iTrader: (1)

I got all of those flow numbers from the Scoggin-Dickey catalog. They sell all of those heads I listed, so I assume that they did all of the testing themselves, as they do have a flowbench. I don't know why they would bias one set of numbers, but who knows? I was just amazed when I saw their numbers and then their price, too. Granted, they are iron, but for those of us who would rather save $400 or so over the aluminum, they do look pretty good. Scoggin-Dickey does list another set of heads they make that are aluminum, but I don't have the catalog with me, but I do remember they are about $1200 to $1400. I would like to see some dyno numbers run against other heads.

Mark A Shields

Yeah, I got around 380hp I think it was with 9.5:1 compression with my current setup and a 750 carb.

Blackroc86

Wouldn't it be nice if we could get about 200 of our cars with various heads, intakes, carbs, HSR's, etc. to the same track. Then we would really be able to find out in the real world what combinations make the big power.

gmgod

Those numbers are for the 220cc intake runners. I would not use those unless you have a stout 383 or 400, or a 350 with a LOT of cam.

Mark A Shields

The flow #s I used were for the 200 cc ones.

89ProchargedROC

LOL, where did Scoggin get those numbers for a set of Track 1 heads?

those look like out of the box numbers to me.....

my semi-ported track 1 heads flow:

.100.......74.......70
.200.......115.....130
.300.......199.....181
.400........250....204
.500........279....215
.600........290....220
.700........298....223

Those are with the stock valves brodix supplies too

flowed on a 4.030" bore @ 28" of water and didn't allow for any extra cfm by flowing anymore than is needed too. Meaning, flowed it straight through and then stopped.....some will flow a head and keep the bench on a wait a few more seconds and you might see a few more cfm. This was also flowed with a pipe attachted to the exhaust

Mark A Shields

I thought all flow #s were out of the box, untouched.

89ProchargedROC

This is what you said

Also my porter told me the reason why the pro action heads flow better numbers out of the box than other heads is because their casting process leaves a nicer finish in the heads where as brodix heads he said seem to be the worst. Thats why with brodix heads a small port job yields large results

Kingtal0n

heres a question:
they flow great right? But they are iron right?

I think thats sort of like a compromise when you look at it from a heat perspective...

You want great flow #'s for your supercharger / nitrous? ell isnt that iron more prone to hotspots and keep more heat in the combustion chamber right making your engine easier to detonate?

I guess MY quesiton is, for people with forced/n20 is it worth the step closer to engine damage for the step up in horsepower?

84TAProject

KingTalon, Im misunderstanding you, lesser flowing heads are better for a supercharger? Or is it that aluminum ones are better. Would say iron heads and 8.5:1 compression be bad under 8 lbs of boost with forged internals?

jcb999

Proactions I have seen are in the 250-255 range

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/ed...=745&aid=41598

PS, those track1 flownumbers are out of the box.. (not ported.. but not as cast either)

jimmy_mac

Hmm, that is interesting. That chart on that website shows the 220 cc head barely outflows stock heads until after .400 inch lift and only approaches Vortec numbers at .500 inches. You will need a .600 inch lift cam with some good duration to make those be worth while. I wonder who is telling the truth about the numbers. I couldn't find any numbers on the chevy performance web site for the 180 cc variety to see if they where better at the lower lifts. But the big Sportman IIs and Iron Eagles both had good numbers at .400 inches of lift.

I'm no expert but I don't think it does much good to look at valve lift numbers that your motor won't see.

89ProchargedROC

Doesn't really matter if you use iron or aluminum....just remember when using aluminum you need one more point higher compression for thermal efficiency

so if you take a stock compression IROC and go to aluminum heads, you have to bump the compression a point

Vader

I presumed you were toasted - we haven't seen you around for a while. How did the heads look as cast?

Kingtal0n

<b>KingTalon, Im misunderstanding you, lesser flowing heads are better for a supercharger? Or is it that aluminum ones are better. Would say iron heads and 8.5:1 compression be bad under 8 lbs of boost with forged internals? </b>

I said nothing about head FLOW numbers and supercharging, or compression, or forged internals. Im sorry if i misled you.
<b>You want great flow #'s for your supercharger / nitrous? ell isnt that iron more prone to hotspots and keep more heat in the combustion chamber right making your engine easier to detonate? </b>

I realize now I was mistaken to phrase it like that.
What I meant to say was:
If the Pro-action heads flow that good, and are that cheap, is it worth buying them as a set of IRON Heads instead of a different, decent set of ALUMINUM heads for the step up in horsepower(flow) as opposed to the natural disadvantages of an IRON head.

Basically IRON when mixed with N20 or Forced induction tends to run a lot HOTTER and promote more HOT SPOTS and all that bad stuff, the Stuff you DONT WANT to see in one of those engines.
So is it worth the step closer to detonation (iron) for the increased flow #'s of those heads, for the price, for people on a budget.

Damon

WOuld somebody who owns a flow bench PLEASE strap down a set of these heads OUT OF THE BOX and report back with some numbers???

I don't beleive manufacturer's flow data as far as I can throw it. Ditto horsepower claims. I say it's horsecrap until I see some independed 3rde party testing. And what I saw on the link to Chevy High Performance's website sure made them look like inflated claims. The ProAction 220 barely holds even with a set of 200cc Iron Eagles. Go compare either of those with a set of AFR 190s and they both look like a smacked a$$ on a rainy day.

For that matter- look how good a set of cheap Trick Flow G2's flows. 'Fer cryin' out loud! Damn that's a good link. Thanks to whoever posted it.

89ProchargedROC

The problem with that Damon is that different flow benches will read different. Even those that you calibrate

There are also other tricks you can do to help a head flow more......my porter told me about them

one is you can flow it on a big bore and the numbers will go up.

also, you can let the flow keep going even though you've reached a peak....and you might nab a few more cfm out of a port but in reality it wouldn't be using it during a cycle

If i could get my hands on one i'd be more than happy to take it to my porter and let him flow them

jimmy_mac

I think that is Damon's point. It looks like Pro Action is inflating their numbers.

I would think Chevy High performance would be a little more objective and fair when they ran the tests. And the big 220 cc Pro Actions don't really even beat the 170 cc Vortecs at .500 in lift if I remeber right.

I mean the mag doesn't really say anything negative at all about them but the numbers speak for themeselves. They are no where near what Pro Action is showing.

I hate it as much as anybody, but sometimes you just have to realize you get what you pay for. And if those numbers are right in the Chevy High Performance test your not even getting that.

88TPI406GTA

Ok...read my thread on this a while ago...

Look at the ACTUAL flow #'s...this seems to contradict CHP's info.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...o+action+heads

Personally, I like the heads quality...so did my head guy...and I can't wait to try the car in the Spring at the track...it is in storage now (too cold and snow coming).

Overall I would recommend them. The ports are cast well and I got the CNC option...Part of the reason for me buying them is that I actually CALLED some shops around the country that use the iron Pro Action heads (and yes, the aluminum are the same) and the flow data plus the feedback I received made them an easy choice...

Almost AFR 210 flow for a lot cheaper...

HTH,

Morley

Where did this myth come from? The alumnium head is MORE thermally efficent than iron and will ALLOW higher compression ratios due to greater heat rejection. If the iron heads are so much better at making power and all, then why did almost every car mfg go to more expensive alumnium castings? Why do ALL of the pro racers use the "inefficent" alumnium heads?

All other things being equal an engine with alumnium heads and one with cast iron with the same compression ratios will produce the same power, the alumnium headed engine will run a tad cooler and will cool off faster than the all iron one.

89ProchargedROC

Ok, first thing: Stop talking me like i have no idea what i'm talking about ok *******?

2nd, i'm not even going to give you the satisfaction of an answer.......if you dont believe, go find out for youself

Mark A Shields

that's a good way to get a post locked, good job.

Greasemonkey

Ok, somebody correct me if I'm way off here. Doesn't the power an engine makes come from the heat? If the power comes from the heat transfer from combustion, wouldn't an aluminum head that has a larger heat transfer to the surroundings be less effecient?

Morley

The opposite, the combustion process is allowed to generate more heat (higher cr's) and more power because it doesn't hold the heat produced which would lead to detonation.

Morley

Childish.


Don't have to, I'm a mechanic by trade and didn't just fall off the turnip wagon.

89ProchargedROC

You're the one who is being childish by attacking ME.....



You are basically saying the same thing as i am. iron HOLDS heat which will raise the temp in a combustion chamber to XXX degree and limit compression ratio for a certain octane

Throw in an aluminum head that DOESN'T HOLD heat and the temps in the chamber will be lower because of it......

THEREFORE, compression needs to be increased to make up for it. It may not be an exact 1 point raise, but its close

Morley

Not at all, with iron heads after the combustion process is over and the power stroke is done you have used the energy of the heat generated (expanding gasses) and it then becomes parasitic heat, Aluminum heads however, shed this heat allowing the next charge to enter the chamber to be cooler, allowing the engine to extract more energy from the combustion process.
Actually heat is an unwanted but necessary product of combustion, what we are really using from the process are the rapidly expanding gasses and the energy they produce, unfortunately this generates heat which the engine must expel by whatever means it can, i.e. radiation, convection, and the exhaust system. The more heat you can shed (within reason) before the next combustion cycle the better off you are and the more power you will make.
Think of it this way, if a Jet engine could expel all of the heat it produces it would be able to produce an almost unlimited amount of power, the metals they are made of limit them.

ctandc

Great argument on the iron vs. alum head issue, but honestly what's the point? Aluminum heads "can" let you get away with more compression that COMPARABLE iron heads because of alum's ability to shed heat faster than iron, as iron retains heat longer.

As far as power, everything else being the SAME, the ONLY gain from going alum is the weight lost. Pretty moot point considering most 3rd gen owner have more weight than that in stereo equipment alone

I've built several motors with alum heads, and I'm still wary of pulling threads, especially if the intake gets removed more than a few times......

Guess the old saying still holds true......

" You pay your money and take your chances......"

Just my highly inflated 2 cents

Morley

This isn't really an issue with the current crop of heads. The alumnium that the new heads are made from are as strong as you can get, the only thing better would be stainless steel.
6061 & 7075 T6 is some darn strong material and if yoinking threads out if it makes you loose sleep there's always helicoils.

And I for one don't have 40 lbs in stereo equipment in my car

chacane67

Because of its ability to shed heat, an alloy head/engine should be increased by 'around' a point in compression......YES (because it need to makes up for its thermal emissivity) to make up for its loss in combustion temperature. An iron head retains combustion temperature which does limit a mechanical compression ratio for a certain octane, just as 89ProChargedROC stated. The gains from a colder/denser airmixture are done before the combustion chamber itself.

Why did the big three goto alloy? Well, they are lighter and are more eaisly repairable and were also designed with the ideas of being able to add hardened seats eaiser as the cast iron production heads were prone to cracking from the amount of pressure used to install the seats themselves. (from a GM bulletin, circa 1987)

Why do all pro racers use them? Well, they are lighter, repairable and are eaiser to machine/modify as compared to cast iron AND when the alloy parts started hitting the market, changing the valvetrain (mods) were just part of the deal.

"Not at all, with iron heads after the combustion process is over and the power stroke is done you have used the energy of the heat generated (expanding gasses) and it then becomes parasitic heat, Aluminum heads however, shed this heat allowing the next charge to enter the chamber to be cooler, allowing the engine to extract more energy from the combustion process."

Thats a lofty theory for an internal combustion engine.... considering that the chamber has nothing to do with inlet charge cooling.

"Think of it this way, if a Jet engine could expel all of the heat it produces it would be able to produce an almost unlimited amount of power, the metals they are made of limit them."

70-80% of useful power produced by an axial flow turbine engine is lost in the exhaust.

I think you mean that if a Jet engine could retain and use its produced heat energy, that they would be-able to create an almost unlimmited supply of power knowing that "TRIT" right now is limited to about 2150 degrees F. and that we are limited to the materials that we have currently developed. Ask me how I know this.....

As for heads:
Alloy = lighter, eaiser to machine/repair, needs to elevate mechanical compression ratio by around a point.
Cast iron = better heat retention, will make more power, sometime hard to repair, heavy.

The small block I am running with Iron heads at 10.8:1 and 91 RM octane makes 630 HP (the race engine), and my current build up of another small block with alloy heads (the street engine) makes 460 HP on 87 RM octane and 9.5:1.

Now it may be eaiser understood why the compresion ratios are creeping upwards to 11:1 from the factory and the big three are finally making the power they did 30 years ago.

89ProchargedROC

:lala:

good explanation

JERRYWHO

Ron Shaver has the aluminum heads on sale for 649.00 bare and 849.00 ready to run you can try this link

http://proshaver.com/index.htm http://proshaver.com/netspecial.htm

Jerry

Mark A Shields

holy crap, you da man.

Glad I couldn't buy them last week. I'll have to check that link out. thanks man.

JERRYWHO

You can also try E-bay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...871811276&rd=1


Jerry

Mark A Shields

Thanks again, I looked for heads a while back on ebay, no luck though, maybe I can ****** these up for a few $ less.

did i say thank you.

Morley

Not even close. In an older Turbojet engine like the J-79 this might have been close to true, but not in a modern Turbofan.

Again a ways off base. FTIT is currently limited to around 2k deg C, not F, in the current crop of high performance jet engines.

Heat is the enemy of any engine, if you can't get rid of it or withstand it, it will always hamper your ability to make power.

Thats all I'm going to say on this subject now.

chacane67

Originally posted by Morley
The chamber has everything to do with the temprature of the inlet charge, if the head is hot and you introduce air into it, the air will become hot before it is time to ignite the fuel/air charge and hot air has less potential energy than cool air.

**NOTE: Read what I stated again. The combustion chamber has nothing to do with inlet charge "cooling"....how can it? If (which is already known) the combustion chamber is already at an elevated temperature....but I do see what you were trying to come across with. All of what I previously posted can be supported by the first law of Thermodynamics, which states: 'The energy that goes into a domain has to be equal to the energy that comes out. Which is expressed as the mass flow of the air, multiplied by its enthalpy, where enthalpy is defined as the air temperature mulitplied by its specific heat.


70-80% of useful power produced by an axial flow turbine engine is lost in the exhaust.
Not even close. In an older Turbojet engine like the J-79 this might have been close to true, but not in a modern Turbofan.

**NOTE: Again, aircraft oriented. The gas turbine industry is employing 'Recuperated' cycle methods which harnesses the unused potential heat energy of the exhaust and use it to improve overall efficiency, create more power and reduce emissions. Efficiency = Power. So, I will restate that, 65-75%, but it is around 70%.


Again a ways off base. FTIT is currently limited to around 2k deg C, not F, in the current crop of high performance jet engines.

**NOTE: And again, who said anything about FTIT? Aerospace and Industrial gas turbine engines are limited to their materials. Since TRIT (power turbine inlet) is the highest known temperature along with the first stage turbine nozzle in ANY turbine engine, next to the combustion temperature itself and knowing that Third Generation Single Crystal alloys (CSMX-10 which is one of the latest/unparalleled materials used) have a temperature capability of around 2150* F, not Celsius.......2000 *C.......show it to me.

Heat is the enemy of any engine, if you can't get rid of it or withstand it, it will always hamper your ability to make power.

**NOTE: Heat is energy, which has the potential to create power. "Withstanding it", and understanding what that involves is where we are.

Thats all I'm going to say on this subject now.

**NOTE: Thank you. Just to let you know, I am an Instrumentation Engineer for Turbines Engine CO. which works with NASA JPTL, AMES Flight Research, DRYDEN, and numerous Universities. The work I do envolves Advanced Turbine Systems, Developments in High Temperature Materials and Coatings for gas turbine engines, Power/Thermal Cycle Optimization, Advanced Combustion, Advance Heat Transfer methods (Liquid Crystal Thermography) and interpretate Vibration Data of high speed turbomachinery. Where your theory's work is not quite realitive to the application here. Although I would love to share ideas with whom ever.......

Morley

Thats fine. While we're giving credentials, I am an A&P mechanic and have been in the aviation industry for 25+ years, to include a 12 year stint in the USAF as a Jet engine mechanic and as such my replies do not come from thin air.

FTIT, Fan turbine inlet temprature, the point where P&W measures the temprature in the F-100 series engines, which by chance IS the hotest point in it (according to P&W).

Edit: My mistake on the tempratures;

FTIT is 720deg C (nominal operating temp with limited excursions to 1k C)
Augmentor is 2K+ C

Mark A Shields

Ohh pissin contest, I want in, I'm in college with no job right now. I win, wait , no I don't.:lala: