Cartrax

Thanks. Actually, I did do this without the valve cover removal. I recall it pointing in the correct general direction but if it's off a tooth or two will it be noticeable?

Intend to repeat it with valve cover off after fp stability and spark arcing test.

Cartrax

Cables and cap are relatively new. Have observed wires in dark w engine running no arcing noticed but will repeat with moisture added. Thanks for the suggestions - agree you have to eliminate the basics.

EDIT - I'm looking at the wiring and as the wires come off the dizzy they are cramped between the engine and the fire wall right on top of one another with no spacing. I'm going to change this before I do anything else.

hitechredneck

As I was reading the other replies to this problem I was thinkin' plug wires too until I ran across Petrolhead's reply earlier today.

Good call Petrolhead
I couldn't agree with ya more.

My question to Cartrax is just how many miles or how old are the plug wires, dist cap & condition of the rotor on this rebuilt motor?

I've seen plug wires with 60k miles cause this very set of symptoms, especially on EFI equipped vehicles.

Also seen cracked or weak pick-up coil magnets in the distributor cause similar problems.

thomas1976

I will check it it out this weekend, when I have a moment.

For the driving test, I route the hose from the T adapter next to the alternator, to the behind the washer fluid bottle then straight up to the windshield wiper.
The air bleed hose, I put it in a PET bottle in front of the washer fluid container.

With engine off, key in start position, the fuel pump primes for around 2 seconds, repeating this procedure allows me to adjust fuel pressure.

Cartrax

Hardly any miles at all, <1,000. Although wires are a couple of years old they haven't seen much mileage. In fact all primary components are <2 years old. I changed just about everything while I was on my last tuning-go-round about 18 months ago.

This morning I re-routed the wires adding spacers where needed -now have complete separation from the dizzy all the way to the plugs. While I didn't take for a drive I didn't notice any running improvement. Engine stumbles when revved to about ~3 grand. You can hear it - somethin' just ain't right somewhere. Feels like timing, but...

Cartrax

Thanks much, appreciate your time and everyone else's.

Schurkey

Installing a different torsional damper DOES NOT change cam timing. If the cam timing was correct before, it's correct now. Based on your compression test numbers, it's either correct or reasonably close to it. That's not to say that your cam is in the OPTIMUM position for your application. 224/224/114 is more cam than I'd want on a TBI installation; but then I have zero ability to tune the fuel and spark curves to suit a non-stock cam. That is, however, very likely the identical camshaft to what I installed in my carbed El Camino twenty years ago; it idles dead-smooth with heaps and piles of vacuum. I can out-accelerate most any ordinary traffic and maintain 10+ inches of vacuum. (400 small-block, 3.31 gears, TH 400 trans)

If the new damper isn't marked the same as the original, the ignition timing could be way off, though.

If the ignition timing is correct, it does not matter a bit if the distributor gear is a tooth or ten off. The distributor position may not be to factory specs, and/or the plug wires may not be sequenced to factory spec, but that doesn't have to cause a driveability problem. Looks goofy as hell, though.

There is no "runoff". The gauge is set up as a dead-head pressure monitor.

Cartrax

Very informative, thanks. Damper TDC seems on based on sort of an unconventional test I performed a while back. I pulled #1 plug and inserted a wooden dowel into the chamber. Hand cranking the engine I noted the dowel extended the furthest amount out of the chamber at 0°/ supposed highest piston position. Slight hand cranking past TDC either way and the dowel would start to slip back into the chamber.

Cartrax

Test drive - what I expected no change as a result of spacing the wires. Slightest load creates a backfire. Ordering fittings for FP stability test - will post results.

thomas1976

Schurkey, do you happen to remember what the Centerline Angle value was? All I could find was this http://usaperform.com/street-fighter...ift-p-493.html

Schurkey

114 lobe separation, cam ground with 2 degrees of advance = 112 intake centerline.
http://www.compcams.com/Pages/416/va...-tutorial.aspx

thomas1976

Thanks Shurkey. Also found this calculator http://www.tildentechnologies.com/downloads.html

thomas1976

With the aluminium cylinder-heads, the LT1 SA table should be a good starting point
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...93-trans-am-sa
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...93-trans-am-sa

I used the Dart Eagle 220 cylinder-heads flow numbers from desktop dyno 5, as they are close to your description, this is the estimated ideal WOT SA that comes up, they go in the 90 and 100 kpa cells.
1000/24.8
1200/25.6
1400/26.5
1600/27
2000/28.4
2200/29
2400/30.4
2800/32
3200/32.5
3600/33.6
4000/34.7
4400/36
4800/36.7
5200/37.2
5600/37.5

Estimated required fuel (90 and 100 kpa cells)
rpm-fwhp-required fuel #/hr. To fill in the missing #/hr, can multiply fwhp by 0.532.
1000-58-30.9
1100-68
1200-78
1300-88
1400-93
1500-107-56.9
1600-118
1700-129
1800-140
1900-151
2000-162-86.2
2200-186
2400-209
2500-220-117
2600-228
2800-243
3000-258-137.2
3200-274
3400-290
3500-298-158.5
3600-305
4000-333-177.1
4400-357
4500-362-192.5
4800-371
5000-373-198.4
5200-365
5500-353-187.7
5600-243
6000-300-160

I would set fuel pressure to handle around 400 fwhp, 18psi with the 90 #/hr injectors.
For the 90 and 100 kpa VE cells, assume the number 85 of the VE cell to be the ideal max fuel your injectors can deliver (211.8 #/hr), according to the excel file.
Play with the psi numbers of the excel file to find how much fuel it takes to fuel the estimated fwhp. Exemple with 305 fwhp at 3600 rpm. in this case (10.45 psi) 161.4 #/hr.
I make it this simple 85/211.8*161.4=64.8 and put the number 64.8 in the 90 and 100 kpa cell @3600 rpm.

VE learns, takes a steady and linear throttle, best is to do it at idle and cruising. After doing some VE learns, smoothing some peeks and holes in the VE table is easy with the grafic.

I hope this will bring you a step further.

Cartrax

Thanks much for your time & expertise. Digesting this, will apply and post results. Waiting on FP fittings for stability test which is the next item on my trouble shooting agenda then on to above depending on FP results.

Hope all had a great Dad's day - I did. Kids and grandkids all very interested in the tuning progress, especially my son who will probably inherit this critter one day. Hopefully not for a long time .

thomas1976

Forgot to mention a detail concerning the WOT SA, the numbers I posted are total SA advance, you will have to subtract around 4° as PE will probably already add around 4°.
Can use the WUD to monitor the total SA.

Cartrax

Thanks, fittings hit - wrong size. Re-ordering, may go ahead with programming before FP test now.

thomas1976

Here is a pick of the T adapter

Cartrax

Yep, got that guy. Went after a reducer 3/8 npt to 1/8 npt thinking the shrader valve connection was a 1/8 npt. It's actually a 10 mm connection. This should allow for connection right to fp regulator body. Probably could have done it another way. Anyway parts on order, thanks.

Cartrax

Looks like you capped the valve. If yes, can you tell me what you used to cap it?

thomas1976

That was a lucky find, a plastic cap that I do not remember where it came from, that fit.

Cartrax

[QUOTE=thomas1976;5778404]

I used the Dart Eagle 220 cylinder-heads flow numbers from desktop dyno 5, as they are close to your description, this is the estimated ideal WOT SA that comes up, they go in the 90 and 100 kpa cells.
1000/24.8
1200/25.6
1400/26.5
1600/27
2000/28.4
2200/29
2400/30.4
2800/32
3200/32.5
3600/33.6
4000/34.7
4400/36
4800/36.7
5200/37.2
5600/37.5

Estimated required fuel (90 and 100 kpa cells)
rpm-fwhp-required fuel #/hr. To fill in the missing #/hr, can multiply fwhp by 0.532.
1000-58-30.9
1100-68
1200-78
1300-88
1400-93
1500-107-56.9
1600-118
1700-129
1800-140
1900-151
2000-162-86.2
2200-186
2400-209
2500-220-117
2600-228
2800-243
3000-258-137.2
3200-274
3400-290
3500-298-158.5
3600-305
4000-333-177.1
4400-357
4500-362-192.5
4800-371
5000-373-198.4
5200-365
5500-353-187.7
5600-243
6000-300-160


Have Main SA tables changed in my next generation BIN per referenced threads but I'm not sure what to do with the above values. What table(s) receive these? Looked at the tables I have - nothing seem to fit. Thanks.

thomas1976

Estimated required fuel... These go in the 90-100 kpa VE tables.

Cartrax

The VE tables? (low,high, and extended speed) ?

thomas1976

Yes, main and extended.

Cartrax

OK, I don't have one titled main but I'll assume it's the low/high combined. I'm on it - sorry for the dumb questions. Thanks.

Cartrax

Strange things - just re-opened a BIN I created and noticed all the values changed. Not just some minor stuff but for example SA's of 0 at 0 RPMs changed from 0 to 64. Other values showing numeric/alpha characters. Must have have hit a wrong button somewhere. Deleted files including programs and re-starting this mess.

Also noted on WUD display with just the ignition on the O2 sensor (heated) sporadically jumps from about 125 mv to 500 mv. That normal?

Ok those are hex values - still starting over since things may be jumbled. Having an issue - in TunerPro I called up the XDF file "EBL_V31.XDF" then called up BIN file "EBL_F_TB2.BIN", clicked on Main SA Table and I keep getting the hex file which I can't edit. What am I doing wrong here? - followed EBL intro - going back to try again but feel free to chime in if you know what I'm doing wrong.

TunerPro set to display hex values - not sure how that happened. Changed it back to calculated values in preferences - back on my tuning adventure...

Cartrax

Starting over with BIN file.

Some basic questions.

Why do two files get opened in TunerPro - the BIN and XDF? I'm editing the BIN - right? What purpose does the XDF file serve?

In EBL utility, which MAP sensor bar do I choose (1,2, or 3)? Also noted there are tables only for 2 and 3 bar BST vs Boost values. Where do the calculated values get placed?

EBL tuning write up does not address these. Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it is normal. The ECM is reading the O2 sensor 80 times a second. That is the 125 mv you see. Then at 10 times a second it sees that the engine isn't running and initializes the O2 reading to 450 mv.

This continues until the engine is running. Then just uses the actual value read from the sensor.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The BIN file is the one you are editing, this is the calibration. And is the one that gets Flashed into the EBL ECM.

The XDF file is a definition file. It has the data conversion equations, data locations, table layouts, and so on so that Tuner Pro can format and display the calibration data in a user friendly format.

As for the EBL Utility, there is a help screen: ALT+H, H

The calculated values get placed into the table that is listed at the top of the data.

RBob.

Cartrax

As always, thanks. My BIN only has 2 & 3 bar tables. I believe I'm running 1 bar since engine is naturally aspirated. Right? Still do not know where to place the calculated BST values. Placing in 2 bar table until then.

Edit - Ok I changed the description on the Two Bar BST table to One Bar and pumped in the values. I noticed it also made the same changes to the Three Bar table. Assume I could just delete the Three Bar Tables - ' course that's just a guess. Should I have any concern about the values in the Boost Spark Retard and Boost Multiplier % tables?? Maybe I should delete those tables - Thinking how does the ECM know which table to use??? I'm guessing it can't discern table descriptions??

AHA! These tables are meaningless since I have no boost! Right? Dang - this is going to take me a while.

Moving on...

Cartrax

What I did - First created LT1 SA tables per above then overwrote the 90 to 100 kpa values per Dart Eagle flow numbers and flashed it then read it. Something made changes to the values - first all the 0 values at 0 rpm were changed to the 200 rpm values, other lower rpm values were knocked up between 200 and 400%, mid range (1to2k) were factored down by 50-70%, and the higher rpm ranges in the wot area were factored up 15-25%. This normal?

Did not try starting it yet.

Note - I will be unable to respond to any questions until Tuesday next week. Change in plans had a little extra time to mess with this

Update - Changed SA tables values to LT1's verbatim leaving out dart eagle wot values. EBL accepting the values better - whatever was smoothing things before just didn't look right and until I get a better feel for what I'm doing I'm just not comfortable with those adjustments. Started fine no test drive yet (no time).

Believe I finally have fittings I need to test the FP stability. Will post.

Trying to understand Thomas VE table directions - after some research I'm still confused on how to calculate/populate the balance of the VE tables.

thomas1976

Sounds like something is not set up correctly in your tunerpro, double check the XDF file settings. IF you could post a print screen of what is happening with your SA table, that would maybe help identify the issue.
When working on the calibration, EBL has nothing to do with it as it is done in tunerpro, when the custom bin (created in tunerpro) is ready you flash it in the EBL and EBL will load it on to the desired bank.

My VE table directions is my own method, what VE cell exactly do you want to calculate?

Cartrax

Just got out of the hospital which was not the reason for "can't answer...". First bout with vertigo, scary schtick, thought I was having a stroke or something. A-Ok now after a battery of tests proved negative. Will get back to the car soon.

On the VE I don't understand how to calculate any cell. Do the HP values remain constant? What excel file are you referring to? Thanks.

thomas1976

I hope you get better quickly.

The estimated HP is at WOT, 90-100 kpa cells only, for the rest, need to use the EBL VE learn feature. I usually start making short data-logs then use the playback to learn/adjust the tables, also manually smooth the VE tables with the graphic. When the adjustments stay within +-5, I start data-logging longer trips with all variety of loads and rpm ranges.

I'm referring to the BPC calculator on the CD included with EBL.

Cartrax

OK, got it.

Just hooked up fittings for FP stability test under load (pic). Re-tapped one fitting to get it compatable. Seems to be working fine - no leaks with ignition on and new gauge reading mimics engine mounted gauge perfectly.

Test drive planned for Monday. Have vac referenced pressure - suggestions on how to test/what to look for? Will be searching threads for info also.

Cartrax

Help - I'm must be doing something wrong. Below are the in and out BIN tables. First is the "in", second is what it turns into after I read it. Ignore the asteric on the BIN name it was saved.



Also I can't run EBL without shutting down my antivirus which keeps disabling the programs. This normal? I'm taking the dumb $hit hits without pain so don't hold back. Thanks.

Cartrax

EDIT: Virus issue solved with Comcast/Norton Suite - problem is it slows my older laptop down - least EBL functions OK now.

thomas1976

In the first pick the LT1 SA table is good, at this point you should only have to save the changes to the bin. The values are then not supposed to change alone.
I can see what happened to it in the second pick, I have no idea what could cause that.

Cartrax

Strange, huh? If anyone else has a clue please advise. Looking at the table and wondering why I even need those lower rpm values.

May go back to original EBL_TB_2 BIN and just overlay values at the corresponding KPA/RPM points in the table without expanding the table. Maybe that's what hosed it (the expansion).

EDIT - OK, just changed the tables per above (plus BPC and AE adjustments). No xdf messing. Without starting the car (too loud for a Sunday AM) everything seems to have taken properly without something changing the values. This based on a read of tables after flashing. I must have hosed something in the xdf b4. Will post running and test drive results - may do today. Keeping my hopes up...

Cartrax

Test drive with external FP Gauge -

Backfiring - Erratic, early stages of test drive had less backfiring with slight pedal (<1/4) and usual backfiring with moderate (> 1/4 pedal). After a mile or so backfiring seemed unrelated to pedal probably more with load but definitely more backfiring than earlier.

FP Stability- Gauge indicating no loss in FP under load. FP hovers around 13" at no load and promptly jumps up under throttle/load to 17-18". It's set at 18 Max.

BIN tables holding their values.

So anyone think I should be jacking up the AE tables more? Already at +20%. Then test drive - what would you do next? Thanks.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the backfiring occurs as the pedal is being depressed, yes, add 20 to 25% more to the two AE PW tables. Just multiply all entries by 1.25

RBob.

Cartrax

Yes, the backfiring is immediate to pedal depression. Will do.

Cartrax

Results of another 25% AE - At first it ran great - no backfiring at 1/2 throttle then as before the backfiring started up later into the test drive with 1/4 or even less throttle. Noticed some backfiring occurring a second or two or more after pedal depression. Runs worst under load. Could not get it over 50MPH without backfiring. Just about back home and I gave a 1/2 pedal - it took it no backfiring. WTF? Also frequently bogs a moment after a small surge in response to pedal.

More AE? Or should I start the learns? Or do I still troubleshoot the backfiring?

Thanks.

Edit: Well, I'm opting for more AE after finding out I'm playing with millionths of a second values. Can I get dangerous?

"Must be running lean cuz backfiring is through the intake" appears to be experience/consensus I'm getting as I research the issue.

Still a bit confused about the deteriorating performance later into to the test drive. Assuming hotter engine is creating some issue. Does a hotter engine require denser fuel?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

My guess is that the fuel pump is going out.

RBob.

Cartrax

Thanks. Will look into it. As noted there were no FP drops according to the gauge. Paid particular attention to pressure while it was backfiring and did not notice any drops but will check it out.

thomas1976

I would do some datalogs and VE learns at idle and in N at different rpm with no backfires, may give an idea of what is happening with the fueling. Also check the spark plugs, oil/grease in the combustion chamber can cause backfire too.

Cartrax

Thanks, will do. Jacking the AE did not help. Last time I checked the plugs they had some pretty nasty carbon on "em but no signs of oil/grease. On my list. Also going over the parts that were replaced over the last couple of years I noted the distributor was not - so I'll be checking the dizzy also. Will post...

Cartrax

Ran a data log. Have a heated O2 and the log shows the car in and out of closed loop during the test drive, mostly out with a ~1000mv flat O2 reading.

A lot of other information that I'm not sure how to interpret. Can anyone recommend a source that will help me understand WUD & Diagnostics readings?

Cartrax

Looking at FP tests, simplest being the residual or static test. Results - On ignition FP jumps to ~20 then quickly drops to about 10", this with the ignition on. Shouldn't it remain at ~20 with ignition on?

TBI's not leaking and couldn't find any evidence of leaks elsewhere. FPR just about brand new.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

That is normal. I believe it drops due to pump shutting off until crank. I use an Aeromotive regulator. possibly other mfgs do not bleed down as quickly.