ricklovin93

iTrader: (1)

i drive an 88 camaro with the LO3 v8 im just looking for some bolt on parts to get my car into the 200hp range i wanna keep all the emmision parts on any suggestions??????????

90 camaro cj

Use a z28 tpi air cleaner with a late 80s cadilac tbi bonnet (needs small modification) smog legal headers and full aftermarket exaust should get you there. A regualr open air element will proly work too but I like the z28 semi CAI

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

kick up the timing to 6 degrees also. you'll be ballpark.

ricklovin93

iTrader: (1)

Do both of you know of any headers that will have the air fitting for the a.I.r pump

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

you will need a better intake, exhaust from engine back, all tbi mods, and a custom tune. that should make 200 at the flywheel. maybe a tiny bit more. but to the wheels will need a whole lot more.

92firebird 305

well i have 202 hp and 268 tq to the rear wheels out of my firebird 305 tbi l03 and all i did was 3 inch flow master system hi flow cat crank undrive pulley a chip from tbi chips msd cap rotor coil wires ac delco plugs and 3 in open element fliter idont know what the timing is at either

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

that's one generous dyno!

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

i think that is a special car. on a dyno i can push about 5 buttons and make mine 400hp. something is wrong with that much hp. a stocker is 165 and that is crank.

ricklovin93

iTrader: (1)

what are good headers that i can use and still keep my a.i.r system are there any headers that have the air fitting on them

90 camaro cj

i think most people are using the hooker ones

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Hooker 2055's are the most common choice

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

VERY generous haha you might be able to get the to the flywheel, but I'm not sure about the wheels, I'm known to be wrong tho

1gary

Not going to be too popular after this post.Well for those would can't think logically and are locked into "those glossy ads" that is.

Question is why are you guys soooooooooo sold on headers and a huge exhaust??.Look I don't care what the claims are.Truth is engines are AIR PUMPS.You guys really think without doing anything to the air/fuel coming in that the headers have that great of a impact??.That is just nonsense.Yeah I know-someone will say they gained 200hp and then I will have to take that claim apart pc by pc.All too often guys in a sense put the cart well before the horse.

Here is the situation I am suggesting.Look,build to the point here you need the free flowing exhaust.To hang 3" pipes on a stock or nearly stock engine is B.S.

The other thing is where does the effect start to take effect??.Off idle-nope.1500RPM-nope or not much.2500rpm-just so small amount it's hardly worth talking about.3000 rpm-well now where talking-it's starting to gain output that ='s your walk behind lawnmore.Man now where talking I can really feel the difference.5000 rpm-much depends on the air/fuel intake and tell me how many times going to get bread at the store are you going to use that??.Well you could change up to 4.88 or 5.13 rear end gears to get a return on the buck you spent for them more often.Here is the added bonus,burnouts on the headers,warped flanges that need double gaskets,long trips like 1500 miles in a vehicle makes you feel like life isn't yours anymore,your radio is always turned on 10 just so you can barely make out whats on it.


Headers lend themselves towards high RPM's and hp that isn't used often on street driven RPM's.And lately they are misused on vehicles that could benefit alot more spending the money on cams,heads,induction systems,ignition systems,computer programing,the list goes on and on long before you let yrs of guys selling headers convince you need them.

Like the movie statement said:The truth.......you can't handle the truth!!.But it is.

bigreed91

I could be wrong here but i think most people add the headers to get rix of the restrictive stock manifold. While they may not add a lot of hp they open the exhaust to where it can support those future mods like cam, heads, tune, etc. I'll admit after i took off the restrictive air cleaner and put on an open element the next thing i bought was a set of shorty headers. I just havent put them on yet due to being in the navy its hard to find a place to work on my car, much less the time. I will agree that 3" dual exhaust seems excessive. I have the 3" y-pipe for my headers and plan to run a single 3" pipe into a single 3" inlet muffler with dual 2 1/2" exits.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

headers and free flow exhaust are added to promote scavenging. stock manifolds are very restrictive. then there are the l03 heads. very restrictive. it has been proven that a good catback and headers improve hp on all cars. yes it is usually in the upper rpm's but it still helps. and if you look at a dyno the most hp and tq is usually made in the upper rpm's where the exhaust makes its presence.

1gary

Being I worked on the dyno years ago at the Chevy engine plant in Tonn,NY the statement of "most Torque" is made in the upper RPM ranges is false.

Even the 305's have the ability to make off idle torque if a well planed informed mods are made.

C/R dictates much of the mods that follow.

Sadly all too many try to follow the trendy header fix that if it sounds louder it must be better and never do much more than that.No plan,don't know,B.S.

87_305

TBH you seem to be missing the point. While too large of an exhaust can/will hurt performance, a properly sized exhaust that includes headers and mandrel bent tubing with a god muffler will improve performance throughout the rpm range. It has already been proven time and time again. If you think otherwise you should really do more research instead of posting your opinion.

1gary

How about rather than spending money on headers................I suggest a rear end gear change the brings the stock engine more up to the power band of the stock engine that doesn't give a huge gas mileage penalty and sets the stage for more mods later.Example:
From 3.42 to 3.72's.You put together a game plan for Torque based off that mainly because HP doesn't matter much for street driven vehicles.Truth is torque is where the biggest bang for your buck that you get to use more often.

1gary

That is what the header companies have brain washed you guys for yrs.Tell you a gain without glossy ad'ing WHERE the peak is.

Trust in the fact that one,I have never stopped learning,and two I have over 40 yrs in this stuff and much of that in a drag racing operation.

If you post a dyno points of a header add on that shows what gain at what RPM much of it gets embarrassing when I start to show that those gains in the lower RPM ranges are very much like the hp of your walk behind lawn mower.<7hp> etc.Where you drive your car most of the time!!!.

1gary

For this O/P of this thread I suggest the gear change first.

87_305

You might have 40 years experience in this but you are still a fool. Nobody is saying to believe the hype in advertising. Maybe you should brush up on your reading comprehension since it appears that you have been out of school too long. Properly sized exhaust improves power throughout the rpm range and that is a fact whether you like it or not.

87_305

I strongly agree with this post of yours though. Gears are definitely the biggest bang for the buck.

1gary

The first thing a member of a forum does it attack the cred of a poster that is just posting the plane truth.

"Improve power at what RPM"??.Show what the result is at each RPM.Answer the question.In there laid the truth.LOL-don't think it is a trill ride given at 2500 (yeah I gots to do it again to drive home the point)I now have a 3% increase that is less than that "walk behind lawn mower" has in HP.Entertain the fact that "lawn more has to turn 3200 rpm to get that hp rating and that is relative to the size of the engine".The same applies to relative size of engines in car too.Well once again-hp is way over rated for street driven cars.Torque is the goal.

1gary

[quote=87_305;4992637]"Properly sized exhaust improves power throughout the rpm range"

There is apart of what I am saying.Fact is OEM cast headers with extrusion porting/port matching on minor mods does tons better than headers.AND costs alot less if the owner does most of the work themselves.

This O/P has asked more than once about his A.I.R. pump.That is his answer.

1gary

Yep-some people don't know what it would be like to drive their car near the power curve.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Headers and a single 3 inch exhaust is not too much. v8 engine 3 inch pipe divided by 2 banks is 1.5 per side. This site has been going for 15 years or more and everyone knows that headers and a full exhaust upgrade are the way's to go. The stock TBI exhaust is very poorly built from headers back. You dont even own a thirdgen so how would you know? just based on years of engine building. I do agree that a gear swap would be beneficial for sure. But a gear swap doesnt get him over 200HP like HE ASKED. it only uses to advantage what he already has.

Its been proven over and over again. The biggest things limiting the 305 tbi.

-the really tiny camshaft
-the pisspoor cylinder heads
-the small poor flowing exhaust manifold
-the restricive 2.25 inch single exhaust

Im sure you can port the stock manifolds out too flow more. Not to flow as much as headers, plus they are heavier, and hold more heat it. no real benefit to doing that

1gary

Like I have accepted on other forums,newbies are just new to that forum,but might not be new to the topic......................

I know it has been hard to get people to face the facts.Re-read what I posted.Question once again is at what RPM are those gains made??.I have isolated the use of only adding headers.

In so much the O/P is asking the question about 200 hp- I am suggesting a different path he could take first.That he might not know what he has...........

The porting of cast iron header on limited class circle track racing is a proven fact.And you can't convince me that the wt of them is a factor for a street car.

Header mods,one more time,should be the last consideration in a mod.In fact you can manipulate torque curves with sizes and flows.It isn't a crutch for work not done yet.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

If you wanna get 200hp, you're gonna be spending a lot of money, because the mods you need to get a brand new factory 305 to 200hp are gonna be expensive, and you're gonna need more than a couple of them, plus you'll have to make up for any lost horse power from all the miles on it (I'm not sure how much yours has) but the only advice I have is that the first thing you want to do, is an open element air cleaner, and an aftermarket muffler with 2.5 or 3 inch tail pipes, that is what I have and I'm not sure how much horse power I gained (if any) but the air cleaner gave me GREAT throttle response and the muffler an pipes definitely gave me some kind of gain, without air engines wouldn't run, so the best things to do first are to get air into the engine (air cleaner) and out of it and a muffler and bigger pipes will reduce backpressure

1gary

I just notice the order you put on what is the limiting factor for TBI 305's.

I sure does look like your agreeing with what I have posed here.

Well time to get some work done in the shop.TTYL.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Im all for the header swap. its the first thing id recomend doing. header swap and full aftermarket exhaust. that will pick up the most hp without doing heads, and a camshaft. since he wants bolt on stuff. i do not agree with your manifold im just saying it can be ported to flow more. but the headers are more beneficial. and since he asked about HP. Im not agreeing with your gear swap. Will it make his car faster off the line and etc? yes. but it does not get him that 200 HP he wants. it better utilizes his powerband, but again a gear swap does not give any hp. makes the car feel faster, will give faster ET's but not one horsepower. Any performance car or anything I wanna have more power. First thing I do is headers. Giant air pumps, more air you move in. The more air you need to move out. thirdgen tbi's exhaust are restrictive. its very beneficial to change teh exhaust

OP put headers on and full exhaust. youll be very very happy

Guest

That "LO3" with bolt-ons doing a claimed 202 / 268 at the tires is probably an LO5 swap by a PO. A stock LO5 ( C1500 ) was rated 210/300 at the crank until '93, then 200/310 until '96.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

very likely!

1gary

In support of the approach of cast iron porting and port match.

Sorry Rick-some are harder to teach than others.

1gary

I m trying to teach you "sumthin"(LOL) here.You might want to reconsider.........

He very well might not know what he wants other than more power and isn't getting the use of what he has and even if he wants more,the gear change would apply to anything else he does.I think I saw in your signature you haven't done that gear change yet.That would make sense why you don't understand.

One very important part neither of us has talked about.How many miles are on this car??.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

wow only 40 years experience. unless your name is smokey unic or david vizard i and most will not listen to you. i to have been around dyno's and have friends that own dyno's. so what. dyno's are tuning devices ONLY!!!!! believe me there have been many a people on here that claim to know it all. headers and exhaust help. period. now where or what rpm can and will be argued forever. again they help. not even you can deny that. anything upgraded from a stock manifold will help period. i hope they lock this one just to all the negative comments about mods.

1gary

Yepper-I too have run into internet hero's.One thing common to that is their posts lack substance.I have posted just the basics and common sense.


Don't think threads should be locked for a constructive input.Take three steps back,a deep breath,look again,then go ahhhhhh-that's what he means.

Look I am not guessing here.Smokey is old tech.Lingenfelter is one of my personal heros god rest his soul.Vizard is also very good.Jenkins is a old school hot rodder.

We as a swap meet vendor for yrs have had hoards of happy customers that followed our suggestions.That is in addition to a long run of winning drag race cars.

Nope-I am not guessing and it isn't a good reason to lock a thread just because you don't agree.

1gary

Truthfully what bugs me the most about headers is the blind faith just because everyone else does a trendy mod.Acceptance without knowing the true end result.No planning to match parts.I contend that gear changes effect ALL mods done there after and are the most effect money spent.A starting point.Consideration to match all mods too.So far both posters do not have that mod done and I am saying that is the first mod to be done.

You will see on my project a 3.70 rear end gear first and then a engine build to follow that.I do what I say knowing what the next step is going to be.Big picture outlook.

Well that is what bugs me the most.Lack of planning and trend builds.What kicks the heck out of headers is the contention of HP where street cars goals should be for torque.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

wow local rocket scientists rule huh. smokey unic old school maybe. lingenfelter good guy yes. he even sells headers. how about that.

the one thing you cannot deny is that headers help any engine. period. i dont care about the rest. from what you are posting it does not. so answer the question or statement.

headers help any engine over stock manifolds.

as for just internet hype. no. there is way too much out there to prove different. but hey say what you will as many before and many after.

we will still install headers. peace out and good luck with changing peoples minds. best of luck on that. you are outnumbered 1 million to 1

1gary

Still don't know why you are promoting a header flywheel gain of a amazing 7HP@3000 RPM and then compound that with 3.23 rear end gears on your ride.You do agree the effect of header is towards the upper RPM ranges.Kind of doesn't make much sense.Numerous times I have answered that question.The last thing to mod is with headers and when a free flowing tuned to the mods done before it when the free flowing exhaust is needed.Not before.When the RPM range is adjusted to be able to benefit from it.Opps-the gear ratio thingie again. Did they water board you to get you to not be willing to learn something new??.Well really old,but apparently new to you.LOL

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

no old enough for it never to be new. you are what is new here with the guaruntee to save peoples lives for 19.99 with stock manifolds and big gears. here we go again just like the last one that claimed to be the best at engine building.

oh and as for 7hp. EVERY ENGINE IS DIFFERENT AND WILL LOSE OR GAIN TOTALLY DIFFERENT IN THE END.

geeze now i think i am listening to an infomercial.


again the empty can rattles the most. 1 million to 1

1gary

Let's not reduce this to mud slinging OK??.That will get any thread closed.And as well it should be.Yepper-my backround also included serving as a Admin on a huge Chevy site.

One thing I learned that you can take to the bank every day.Newbies are only new to the site and that has nothing to do with what they know or not.


So please stop with the here we go again.I knew someone was going to end up having to pull that shot out because the just happen to have been on this site longer than me.I could almost predict it.

Facts are fact on topic.I have shown you a possible error on your build with not changing the rear end gear ratio and you don't like it.So you revert to attacking me.Please!!!.I am trying to help.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

I do have a 3.42 gear swap. Gears were the most dramatic thing that made my car faster. But what I am saying is a 3.42 gear didnt give my car more Horsepower. the horsepower was the same. it gave me faster elapsed times. but not more horsepower.

His question was about how to get to 200 HP. Headers are by far one of the best things to do to help him get to that. It's not that hard to understand.

1gary

Undercover-you know we keep going over the same topics over and over again and that is a indication of a thread that has seen two sides of the topic and has gone stale.

True enough me second guessing the O/P that he doesn't know what 200 hp would be like let alone to be able to use what he has to make him satisfied.And that suggestion I am making is off topic.I am just trying to look out for the O/P's best interest for the long term.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

that's fine. I'd recomend a gear swap too to make the car faster. But he wanted 200 HP and our recomendations were to get him closer to that. I picked up 7/10's from a gear swap. the car was faster obviously. but it didnt have not a single horsepower more than it had before the swap. That is all im saying.

1gary

kewl-you did that change to 3.42's.Mine is going the Ford 9" route and 3.70's with a 29" tire and a 700R4.That will put me about 2500 RPM @ 60 MPH.Just the start of the torque curve.

1gary

Yeah-but to judge a ET/speed change for racing is alot different than to put together a street car that is in use of the power band normally driving.Ya know what I mean??

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Yeah 3.70's with a 29 inch tall tire is like having about a 3.50 gear

Im at 72 MPH at 2500, 65-67 at 2300 RPM. Pretty good cruising gear.

1gary

What is the car's wt??.

1gary

You could figure where your at with the car given a 1/4 time with these calculators in this link:

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

I dont need any calculators but thank you. I was just comparing your hypothetical RPM to speed to my actual RPM vs speed