seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

OK, this is gonna be kinda long, but there are a lot of factors in this decision.

Kid lives in the apartments across the street from me. He's a broke student with a sweet '90 RS LO3 auto. It's stock with the exception of the shift kit he had put in when he had the transmission rebuilt last year. He's seen my Firebird and started shooting the breeze with me about 3rd gens awhile back. He wants to hop his car up, but he has to finish school and retire some student loan debt first; it'll be years before he can do anything but drive it, it's his daily driver.

The other day, it quit running. The kid has only basic mechanical skills and no tools, so I hooked him up with my guy. He has a 4 bay shop on his land and works on cars on the side, so he costs a lot less than regular shops. He's really good, honest, and has experience with 3rd gens, although he doesn't burn chips.

We found out it dropped a valve, and broke a piston. The cylinder is scored beyond rebore, so the engine is unrebuildable.

The kid's parents are willing to help him, but the kid's father is really set on a Goodwrench crate engine. He had a really bad experience in the past with a rebuild, and a great experience with a Goodwrench crate engine, so he loves them.

I'm not adverse to that at all. One of my favorite series of articles ever was PHR's Goodwrench Quest, where they took a basic Goodwrench 350 crate engine and ran a bunch of head/cam/intake/carb combinations on it, eventually making over 400 hp and 400 ft lbs with a set of Vortec heads. I think a Goodwrench 350 would make a great platform for him.

My guy doesn't think it's a bad idea, either. Since the kid can't do his own work, the labor on a rebuild would add up quick, even at my guys's rates. He doesn't think he could rebuild one a whole lot cheaper than a crate engine.

The kid would really like to use this as an opportunity to swap to a 350 if possible (something I heartily agree with). His dad is fine with it, as long as we can do it withing "a couple of hundred bucks" of what we could do a direct replacement for.

Oh, and the car is tagged in California (LA), so it has to remain completely smog legal.

I did a little checking at Scoggins Dickey. The Goodwrench LO3 replacement is 2191.18 (PN 12518296)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12518296

Pace Chevrolet has it for 1763.02

http://paceperformance.com/i-6484909...bi-engine.html

Now clearly, there are going to be shipping and core charges, but they'll be pretty much the same, no matter what engine he chooses, so they're a wash.

The good thing about the LO3 replacement is it's a direct replacement.

The bad thing about the L03 replacement is it's an LO3.

Now, the base model Goodwrench 350 is actually quite a bit cheaper than the LO3. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1499.99 (PN 10067353)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/10067353

Pace is actually more expensive on this one at 1819.95

http://paceperformance.com/i-6237688...no-intake.html

The problem with the basic Goodwrench crate engine, though, is that it's not exactly a direct fit.

It's a 2-piece rear main seal block, so he'd need a new flex plate. The heads aren't centerbolt, it's a non-roller, etc. The heads are crap, too.

Another option would be an L05. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1789.95 (PN 12568758), cheaper than an LO3!

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12568758

Pace has it for 1849.95.

http://paceperformance.com/i-6485019...-7200-gvw.html

I think that is actually a better choice than the base Goodwrench 350. It's a 1-piece rear main seal, the intake fits, it's a roller cam engine, and while the heads are crap, so are the ones on the base Goodwrench 350. A head swap would definitely be in his future with either choice when he started hopping it up. For now, all he'd need would be a set of 350 injectors, a Caprice cop car ecm, and the correct knock sensor and ESC module, and this would run perfectly, wouldn't it?

There's one more choice I really prefer, though. An L31. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1979.95 (PN 12530282)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12530282

Pace has it for 1999.95

http://paceperformance.com/i-6484921...-8600-gvw.html

I love the L31. High nickel block, 4-bolt mains, hypereutectic pistons, and best of all, Vortec heads!

My advice to him would be to get the L31 crate, pull the heads, have them machined for 500+ lift cams, install screw-in studs, then reassemble them with the stock springs. That way, when he goes to hop it up in the future, he won't have to pull the heads.

There are a few issues, though.

Issue #1: Intake
The GMPP Vortec TBI intake costs around 400 bucks. Did any of the Vortec trucks use a TBI throttle body like ours, or is that his only choice? Remember, it has to have EGR.

Issue #2: EGR
Vortecs don't have an EGR passage. I'm pretty sure the Vortec trucks get their EGR from the exhaust manifold. Could we tap into the existing exhaust manifold, or would a truck exhaust manifold swap over?

Issue #3: Tune
While the Cop Car ECM should run perfectly with an L05 crate engine, since the L31 flows more air, would that ECM work well with it in stock tune?

Are there any other issues I'm not considering?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'd drop the L05 in. Several main reasons: first is Cali smog check. Externally the engine is identical to the L03, so no reason to reject it. If the L31 was dropped in it is an instant "tampered: get this car out of here".

Second, a PROM can be had from a Caprice to plug into the ECM. Could be further tuned, but otherwise is a drop in.

Third, the engine is a bolt in. No messing around, unbolt the L03, bolt in the L05, done. Use the 350 L05 61#/hr injectors, 350 L05 knock sensor, maybe change the knock filter.

Kid needs the car for a daily driver, as soon as modifications start, the car is down.

Just my 2-cents worth.

RBob.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Good points.

As I understand it, though, the GMPP Vortec TBI intake is CARB certified, isn't it? Remember the Mission 305 project CHP did a few years back where they put Vortecs on an LO3 using the GMPP Vortec TBI intake and passed California smog with it with no problem.

I do agree that mods of any kind keep him walking/bumming rides/taking the bus longer, though.

And the cop car Caprice used 65#/hr injectors, didn't it? I thought it was the truck LO5s that used the 61#/hr injectors? Would the truck ECM or chip work better/worse/the same in the Camaro as the Caprice Cop Car? The ideal solution for him would be to just swap the entire ECM, wouldn't it?

Also, there are two LO5s listed on Scoggin Dickey's site:

Here's the 1789.95 one (PN 12568758)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12568758

There's also this one for 1949.00 (PN 12520270)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12520270

The second (more expensive one) is shown as being for trucks over 8500 lbs, while the less expensive one is shown for being for trucks under 8500 lbs. The more expensive one appears to have a different oil pan, too. Is there a chance the more expensive one is different (hopefully stronger) internally?

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Ummm ... guys, need some more responses here, the kid is on a clock.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Put a stock motor in (USED!), anything not stock is going to cost more and more money. Where do you stop? I've been down this road before and am currently on it again. I have $2400 into a engine, $600 into a transmission rebuild kit and $600 into a torque converter. $600 into headers. Still need to buy exhaust pipe and fab. Transmission needs to be taken apart and rebuilt. Still need intake, VAFRP, adapter plate, new sensors, etc etc etc. I am so far in, and still need to spend another grand before it even runs. Then there's the tuning. And the fact that I have no garage to work in. Everything is stored/worked on it in the basement and will be dragged out to the back yard when the transplant is ready. It all doesn't seem like much on paper but when you go and actually do it, it adds up quick (time and money).

KISS theory is an acronym to live by: Keep It Simple Stupid

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Dude, sorry for your problems, but KISS is absolutely what you did not do, and what this kid is trying to do.

You fell victim to the "as long as I'm doing that, I might as well do this" syndrome. I've done it before, too.

That's why there won't be headers and exhaust done on this car right now, there won't be a new converter, VAFPR, etc.

On the other hand, when you have a car that you plan to modify, you need to look at repairs as opportunities. Spending 2,000 (+core, + shipping) on an LO3 long block is insanity if (a) you don't want an LO3 in the long run, and (b) you can upgrade to a 350 for just a few hundred dollars more.

As far as putting a used LO3 in, first, if you'd read the post I made, you'd already know the kid's dad, who is funding this, is set on a Goodwrench crate engine. Ain't gonns be no used engine.

Second, even if the kid's father wasn't set on a Goodwrench crate engine, since there are no LO3s out there that are less than 15 years old, the chances of finding one with low miles is pretty slim, and not worth the risk when he has to pay someone else to do the install. If it was him and a couple of buddies renting a cherry picker and doing the install, maybe. KISS is about simple, not cheap, or stupid.

The fact is, it's probably going to be an LO3. I talked to the kids father last week and went over the options with him. He wants to let his son upgrade to a 350, but is nervous about it costing a ton of money, or the car not running right. I told him about this forum, and assured him there would be plenty of help offered, that we would have plenty of information upon which to base the decision.

I'm not looking so good right now. After nearly a hundred views, not much help, the questions needing answers are being ignored. Time is running out, so it looks like all the TBI enthusiasts here are just telling this kid to go **** himself.

formula90fan

If his Father is funding the project then the L31 would seem to be the best bet. After that he can mod at his own pace. Once its in its in, it will run for a long time and is the "best" engine available. Will take some jiffy riggin but again if the father is funding it,shouldn't matter since they are having your mechanic friend doing the work.(assuming his competence)

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I agree, I personally prefer the L31.

BUT, the L31 (or the LO5) will only work in this situation if the swap can be accomplished with no tuning.

Now, there's no question that the current chip won't work. The only way either the L31 or the LO5 swap works is if he can swap ECMs and injectors and have it operate properly.

I've searched it, and (as usual), all I can find is anecdotal evidence. What I need is for some of the really knowledgable members to jump in and help.

I've been on here for over 8 years, but I've never considered anything like this before. Every time I've thought about swapping to a 350 or 383, it's been to a modified engine that I knew would require tuning. Now that I think about it, though, I'm surprised this hasn't come up before.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

RBob, regarding your LO5 recommendation;

In another thread, you said this:

Can you be more specific about which injectors went with what?

Better yet, which injectors/ecm would you feel would work best in this situation?

Ideally, the best solution for him would be to simply swap ECMs (if that will work). Is there a truck, Caprice, or cop car ECM that will swap over and operate everything properly?

If simply swapping the ECM is possible, which would be best (truck, Caprice, or cop car), and which injectors would work best with it? My advice to them has been to buy new injectors, but we have to know which ones to buy.

Is the fuel pressure the same with Caprices, trucks, and cop cars?

Are there any internal differences between a cop car LO5, a Caprice LO5, and a truck LO5?

Please help.

DeanJ

Here's my 2 cents. If the dad's set on a crate engine, get the LO5. Reason, Cali smog requirments, the engine is identical in appearance. A LO5 Caprice ECM is a direct plug in swap and will run the engine just fine without further tuning. The L31 WILL require tuning due to head and cam differences. If mods are in the future, let them be in the future. Doesn't sound like the kid's going to have any extra car money any time soon. Take RBobs advice, LO5 Caprice injectors, ECM, knock sensor, and ESC. This will be a direct bolt in, will look smog legal and will run better than the 305. These swap parts, minus the injectors and ECM are available fairly cheap new. A little diging at the local pull-a-part should produce the required items as well.

DeanJ

All fuel pressures for these engines will be the same. Some of the truck engines used flat tappet cams. I'm not sure about the diff between the Police LO5 vs the regular version. I think they had a slightly different camshaft and injectors, but I'm not sure about the cam. Which ever engine you go with, the PROM needs to match.

thomas1976

Strange GM doesen't offer a 87-93 350ci crate engine/shortblock with roller cam, anymore

I would try to find out wich 87-93 LO5 crate engine is machined to use a roller cam, and chose that one.
At least, I would stab a mild roller cam in there and bolt on some headers before dropping it in the car.

Tuning a mild 350 TBI is really no big deal with EBL flash.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

They used to make one, it sold for about 1,500 bucks ... a one piece rear main seal version of the basic Goodwrench 350.

And this is going to be essentially a stock replacement; no upgrades at this time. Go back and read Morgsie's post, it's a perfect example of what happens when you start the whole "as long as I'm doing this, I might as well do that".

If this engine hadn't blown, the kid would have driven the car is bone stock condition for several more years (at least). The idea behind going with a 350 here, rather than a stock replacement 305 is to allow him to continue to have reliable, good running, economical daily transportation for the next several years that also gives him a good platform for later mods.

And chip tuning just isn't in the cards right now. He doesn't have the equipment, and more importantly, the know-how. If Fast355 lived in Tulsa, it's be different, but he can't risk making changes, then having an ill-tempered, poor running, gas guzzling dog that he has to rely on for daily transportation.

If this can't be accomplished by simply swapping the ecm, injectors, knock sensor, etc., then it can't work. That's why, while I strongly prefer the L31, RBob's suggestion of the LO5 probably makes more sense. The challenge is finding out exactly which ecm, and which injectors to use.

Then there's the question of whether the L31 could possibly work with the cop car ecm and 68#/hr injectors.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Also, on Top Gear, they often say Switzerland is the least car-friendly country on the planet. Why is that?

thomas1976

I know a crate LO5 with roller cam was available around 3 years ago though the price was around 2300$.

There is no obligation to upgrade the L05.

A good 350 platform would be machined for a roller cam.

As you point out, the car is to be driven, now a truck LO5 with flat tapped cam is a "gas guzzling dog".
Only way around this is headers, roller cam and EBL flash.
If you do the $ math right, even the cost of a fancy set of full roller rockers will probably be absorbed in a year of fuel and wear efficiency.

You could do the tuning easy with EBL flash and our help.

The no tune drop in LO5 option Rbob suggested, doesent require to change ECM, ewerything you need is listed in post #2

For a more performance 350 bolt togheter, I would get the L31 short block only, get aftermarket aluminium heads, computer friendly roller cam, ...

Wery strict car inspection and laws, noise, pollution, safety, ...
Also non OE parts need to be homologated, for example for a set of lowering springs it cost around 12000$ and there is no garantee the springs will pass the tests.

Car racing is officially illegal too, since
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Le_Mans_disaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Grand_Prix

Or maybe the top gear team is just jealous that Louis Chevrolet was Swiss.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

OK, again, tuning is not an option here for the time being. Kid doesn't have the money for the tuning equipment, and is carrying a full class load and working 30+ hours per week, so he has no time to begin the process of learning to tune the car, now, or in the immeadiate future. His father is also very leery of the process, and won't support it. Since he's paying for it, that is enough to put the skosh on it right there.

If you'll go back to post #3, you'll see there were two LO5 Goodwrench crate motors listed. I'm sure one of them will be a roller motor, and that will be ascertained before a purchase is made. Roller is not an issue, if an LO5 goes in that car, it will be a roller.

And swapping the ECM is swapping the chip. It's just swapping the chip without having the problem of an inexperienced kid removing a chip from a circuit board and having to solder one back on. The simplest way to accomplish the chip swap is simply to swap the ecm, if that ecm is indeed, swappable.

And, while RBob did indeed list what was needed to do the LO5 swap, he did not specify which Caprice ecm/chip should be teamed with which injectors. A question I've been trying to get an answer to for nearly a week, and one which is critical to this being done successfully..

Also, how do you get your car to comply with all those regualtions? It appears to be pretty heavily modded.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

OK, here is what drives me absolutely crazy about this forum:

On 07.28.06, BMmonteSS made a thread on swapping from a 305 to a 350. In the first post, he said this:

On 02.14.09, RBob said this:

Now, I don't know who is right. My bet would be on RBob. BBmonte is a pretty good mechanic, maybe even rising to the level of an engineer, but he is definitely a TBI Fanboy and takes a lot of the disinformation spread around on here at face value, and will fight to the death over it.

The mods made that thread a sticky, and it took 2 1/2 years for someone to come in and correct that obviously incorrect information.

The stickys in this forum are full of that kind of disinformation. It's no wonder there are so many inactive members who post 10-20 times, then go away.

The absolute most popular, most discussed swap on this forum has to be 305 to 350/383. If we're going to have a sticky on it (and I think we should), shouldn't it have detailed, and more importantly, correct information?

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Thinking about it, the LO3 chip is calibrated to an engine that moves a specific amount of air and a specific amount of fuel. The LO5 is nothing but an oversized LO3. It was designed with the same philosophy, utilizing the same type of swirl port heads, same type of camshaft, etc. It would make perfect sense to me that increasing injector size by the same percentage that displacement has been increased would be much more likely to work in this swap with the stock LO3 chip than it would trying the same thing with an L98 or an L31, which use different design philosophies, and therefore have completely different airflow and combustion characteristics.

thomas1976

The cost of EBL flash will be absorbed shortly, considering its efficiency and the fact you have no LO5 chip/ECM.

Swapping the chip is a no brainer, easier then disconnecting the ECM. If you do not want to tune or need a LO5 chip tbichips.com

According to the description, both engines listed in post #3 have flat tapped cams, would be nice if they are machined for a roller cam.
Beware, the scond more expensive fuel vaporizer with 8:5 CR.



Looks, sounds stock and passes emissions tests.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Thomas, please listen to me. There will be no tuning done at this stage, with this car. I've already outlined all the reasons. I'm not the decision maker. The decision makers have decided. There will be no tuning. Now, we can debate tuning till the cows come home. We can debate tuning till the Swiss make cheese. I personally like tuning, but the fact is that the people making the decision have decided that there will be no tuning. Perhaps their reasons are good. Perhaps their reasons are bad. Doesn't matter. They have made that decision, and it is therefore fruitless to continue to debate tuning.

Furthermore, here is the description for this LO5:

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12520270

Part Number: 12520270
Brand: GM Goodwrench Replacement Engines
SKU: 12520270
Price: $1,949.00
1987-94 Chevrolet, GM C G3 (L05)(5.7K) Emis. Sys (above 8500lb . GVW) NA 4
1987-90 Chevrolet, GM C P2,3 (L05)(5.7K) Emis. Sys (above 8500lb. GV W ) NA4
1987-91 Chevrolet, GM C RV2, 3 (L05)(5.7K) Emis. Sys (ab ove 8500lb. GVW) NA4
1988-95 Chevrolet, GM C CK 2, 3 (L05)(5.7K) Emis. Sys (ab ove 8500lb. GVW) NA4
1991-96 Chevrolet, GM C P3 (L05)(5.7K)
1994- 96 C hevrolet, GMC G3 (L05)(5.7K ) MT 1 (exc. KL5, 5Z1, 9C2, NM8)
1994-96 Chevrolet, GM C G3 (L05)(5.7K) NM 8, MT1 (exc. 9C 2)
1994-96 Chevrolet, GM C G3 (L05)(5.7K) 5Z 1 (ex c. 9C 2, NM 8)
1995 Chevrolet, GM C G3 (L05)(5.7K) MT1, 9C 2, 5Z1 (ex c. NM 8)

Every new Goodwrench engine is made to the same engineering standards that go into every new GM vehicle. They"re tested to perform under the most demanding conditions, assuring you the reliability and quality you expect from the Goodwrench name and they"re backed by a 36-month/100,000 mile transferable limited warranty. GM Service Replacement Engines are available at over 7,200 GM Dealers across the U.S. and Canada.

Replaces: 12509657

INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS
• Part number 12520270 5.7 Goodwrench 5.7 Liter engine is built with 1993 model year designed oil pan (no rail bead), oil pan gasket, and oil pump assembly. When servicing this engine, it is required that replacement parts be of the same type and design.
• This engine is built with current-production valve rocker covers. It may be necessary to use cover from replaced engine.
• On models with a 5-Q u art Oil Pan, remove oil pan and oil pump assembly. Replace with original or new oil pan assembly part number 12518043, oil pump assembly part number 10168529, and screen oil part number 10166159.
• This engine is built to production point of build torque specifications, and loss of some torque is normal. It is not necessary to retorque any bolts.

1987-96 Chevrolet, GMC C, K, G, R & U (L05)(5.7K)(NA4) (12520270) Specifications
1987-96 Chevrolet, GMC C, K, G, R & U (L05)(5.7K)(NA4) (12520270) Specifications
Core Value: 100
Cubic Inch: 350
Liters: 5.7
New/Reman: New
Transmission: Auto / Manual


Nowhere does it say it is a non-roller block. Jeg's listing of that engine does say it is a flat tappet, but I believe it is an error. I'll make some calls Monday and see. Even if it is not a roller cam engine, though, there is always this one:

http://paceperformance.com/i-5133946...-brougham.html

It's also listed here (third engine down):

http://www.strokerengine.com/MrGoodwrench.html

It says:

HYDRAULIC ROLLER CAMSHAFT SPECS

INTAKE LIFT-.359" * EXHAUST LIFT.384" * INTAKE DURATION @.050-186.5 * EXHAUST DURATION @.050-193.8

LOBE CENTER SEPERATION -110.3

INTAKE VALVE OPENS @ -16.9 BTDC * INTAKE VALVE CLOSES @ 23.4ATDC * INTAKE LOBE CENTERLINE - 110.3

EXHAUST VALVE OPENS @ 25.6BBDC * EXHAUST VALVE CLOSES @ -11.9 ATDC * EXHAUST LOBE CENTERLINE - 110.3

Also, the Salee Chevrolet site appears to answer another question. Under the applications for PN 12513151, it says:

5.7L 350 91-93 Caprice TBI
12513151 350 CID New 5.7L
1991-93 Chevrolet B (L05)(5.7K), Exc. SEO Police Car (9C1)
1992-93 Buick B (L05)(5.7K)
1991-93 Cadillac D (L05)(5.7K)
1992 Oldsmobile B (L05)(5.7K)

So, it appears there are internal differences in the LO5 Caprice engine and the LO5 cop car engine.

thomas1976

Ok now that you put it this way I will no further insist, unthil now you were just trowin out inaccurate resons, to not just buy the chip instead of the whole ECM and/or investing $ to upgrade to EBL flash.

You did some nice research, the GM 12513151 is the good roller LO5.
I thought it was discontinnued, my bad. Good job

Now you need 61#/hr TBI injectors, 350 knock sensor #10456288 and 350 TBI ESC module #16128261.

Add intake, TBI, exhaust gaskets and your part list should be complete.

1gary

I wanted to share the fact no matter which good wrench engine he gets,his father has to know these engines rebuilds are out sourced to a number of different suppliers.That in fact even if he is loyal to the brand,they can be no better or worse than say a Jasper.It is the nature of the business even with the sources you looked up.

I have a 1995 L31 that I bought as a donor that was in a Astro van.It has the cop car 65 lb injectors lifted and was a running engine when I bought it.I think the 1995 truck computer was transfer in the engine swap.I'll look up the computer number next time I am at the shop on Wed and that I will post to my 383 thread if that will help you at all.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Well, first, the Goodwrench engines under consideration are new, not remanufactured.

Second, I can debate the father's decision to go to a Goodwrench crate engine till the cows come home, but it is clear to me tha his mind is made up. If I were to disagree with him (and frankly, I don't), at some point, he's just going to stop taking my calls, or tell me to go F*** myself, and have an LO3 put in it.

The kid doesn't want that, so I'm trying to help him, but when the father has laid out three options that are acceptable to him: Goodwrench LO3, Goodwrench LO5, or Goodwrench L31, it is clear to me that he is set on that, then it would be insane for me to risk alienating him by insisting he go in another direction.

He's already expressed his disappointment that I have been unable to provide concrete details in more than a week. I figure I've got, at best, three or four more days before he pulls the trigger on the LO3.

1gary

Sean,just wanting to help out here.I'll look for the computer numbers that was in the donor L31 Astro to confirm it was just a 1995.

But because I don't think a chip burn was done on this swap,in all honesty it does bring about a important question I hadn't considered until now.The rod bearings on this engine where worn out and thus I am building the 383.I have to wonder if they where washed out with a gas mixture because of a over rich condition.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Its called deception for the california smog check. The GM performance parts manifold is NOT smog exempt and might very well fail the visual smog check.

I would go with the 20270 HD engine, there are changes in this engine that make it MUCH more durable than the lighter duty engine. The only thing that I am not so much a fan of is the fact it has 18cc dished pistons rather than flat tops or even the smaller 12cc dished. However you get a single roller timing chain, roller cam provisions, a "rv" low-mid range torque oriented camshaft, high pressure/volume oil pump, 5 quart oil pan, intake/exhaust valve rotators, and better valve springs. The engine is designed to be driven hard under a load and live a LONG TIME doing it.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That engine has the L03 peanut roller cam in it and was only 170 or 180 HP in the B/D cars depending on the year. It has no more power than the L03.

I ran the 20270 TBI truck engine on a stock 93 Caprice 350 chip for some time and it ran very well. I would use a 7747 running ARHT(fullsize van ECM/Chip), I highly doubt california smog testers are going to acess or read the prom ID, so you should be good. I would use the 305 knock module and 350 knock sensor along with 61# 350 injectors (orange/black). I prefer the 305 knock module because it desensitizes the system slightly for things such as headers, roller rockers, more aggressive cams, etc.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

L31 wasn't created until 1996 and was used in 1996 in G30 vans under a TBI setup as well as in Mexico/South America.

Has he thought of a goodwrench shortblock with a set of good heads perhaps? You can get the L31 shortblock for $1200.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, I actually prefer that. The dad won't go there, though.

The history is, he had an engine rebuilt years ago. He got cheated on the labor, it never ran right, and expired after only a few thousand miles. He took the car to a Chevy dealer, who recommended a Goodwrench replacement engine. It cost less than the rebuild, and is still running perfectly today 10 + years and 120,000+ miles later.

He knows very little about cars, but he knows he loves his Goodwrench engine, and as he said: "If I'm paying for it, it's going to be a Goodwrench engine."

He's in California, his kid is out in the wilds of Oklahoma, and this complete stranger who sounds like Gus from Lonesome Dove is trying to talk him into doing something he's not comfortable with. I totally understand the guy, and don't really disagree with him.

If I was using my LO3 as my only source of transportation and the engine crapped out on me, I'd buy the L31 shortblock, a set of the RHS improved Vortecs (the old Pro Topline Vortecs), a rumpety-rump cam, the GMPP Vortec intake and Embedded Lockers.

Thing is, I'd be spending at least a grand more than this kid's dad is willing to spend.

If I had his budget, I'd buy the L31 crate engine, pull the heads prior to the install and have them cut for 500+ springs and have screw-in studs installed, then reassemble them with the stock springs, get the GMPP Vortec intake and try a Caprice or truck chip.

I really wish the kid could go that way. I can't honestly tell his dad that the car will run properly like that, though, and the father is dead-set against tuning.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

You know, those 18cc dishes might just be a positive.

Are you familiar with the EngineQuest EQ23 50cc heads?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVR...-/170636821400

PHR made 470 hp with them on an L31 shortblock (Son of Sledgehammer). That's more than 30hp more than they got out of the original L31/Vortec Sledgehammer build.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ild/index.html

18cc dish, 50cc chamber ought to be pretty close to optimal for the street, shouldn't it? If not, there are thicker-than-stock head gaskets.

That ebay guy's price is more than a hundred bucks per head cheaper than I've seen them anywhere else.

BTW, I'm not suggesting he do this now, just that the 18cc dish can be worked around later when he starts to mod it.

1gary

Sean/Fast355-sorry about that.The casting number I have is a 1996 short block that was put into a 1995 pick-up at first.Thus it is a L31.You guys where right.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The "880" casting came around in mid 1995 in TBI applications, so it was probably the stock L05 engine from that truck.

1gary

Yep-that kind of makes sense.It was a crate replacement short block from what I was able to figure from the cast numbers.It is a 4 bolt main with a flat tappet cam and the bosses drilled and tap.So they likely took old stock to fill a order.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Nah, they used them to "prove" the block, its very commen. They were going to switch to that block in 96, so why not make the transition when you use up the 95 blocks so you don't have surplus hanging around.

1gary

I worked at the Chevy Tonn,NY engine plant as a engine tester/dyno rm.Fired up 48 production engines per shift,run testing them on propane,sounded them out,checked the oil pressure,timed them and final balanced them.One of my pet projects that I have my name on the engines was the dual over head cam Winters aluminum headed Cosworth Vega.

So I did see some unplanned changes.

thomas1976

Going by the parts description of the GM 12513151, says flat top pistons 9:6 CR, the peanut cam is a easy fix if desired.
I am confident this LO5 as it comes, makes more power then the LO3. Not much but more.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Its roller, but its 2 bolt main, weaker crank, and tiny cam are too much of a sacrifice, IMO. The 810 casting heads on the 8600+ GVW engine flow slightly better as well.

Makes more torque, but nothing earth shattering. The cars even the "773 L98" cammed 9C1 models were all the least impressive 350s that I have ever driven.

thomas1976

Yea, 2 bolt and cast crank is ok for me. The cam of all LO5's listed here are a "sacrifice" and the heads too.
For a drop in, no tune, no mods, the GM 12513151 sounds good, for me.
Should also be good with better cam and heads up to over 300hp, if some day mods are allowed.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

While I definitely prefer the L31 to the LO5, 2 bolt mains and cast crank aren't that big of an issue on a street motor. I've taken more than one 2 bolt, cast cranked 400 and run high 11s on street tires and a 250 shot of nitrous without ever having a problem.

Realistically, a TBI 350 is not likely to be a motor that revs past 6500 rpm, and as long as it lives there, 2 bolt is fine. I'd prefer 4 bolt, but 2 bolt is OK.

As far as the cam, when he goes to mod the car in the future, a cam swap will be in order, regardless of whether he has the LO5 or the L31. For the time being, when he's simply wanting to drop an engine in there in bone stock trim to serve as reliable daily transportation, I'm thinking the LO5 would be the better choice, as it is the most like the LO3 coming out, and would therefore be most likely to run correctly with the chip he has, or if not, to run correctly with a Caprice, cop car, or truck chip.

thomas1976

Sorry I understood the L31 is not an option, due to CA regulations. The L31 comes much better heads wich makes it a good choice.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Clearly there are CA smog issues with the L31, however, for the second time, Popular Hot Rodding put Vortec heads and the GMPP Vortec intake on their Mission 305 project back in 2004, and it passed CA smog.

The problem in this situation is, no one is weighing in with any information on how they might have done that. Therefore, I cannot say to the father that it can be done.

And yes, the L31 has much better heads, but again, this must be a drop in, with no tuning. No one has offered any information on how that drop in might be accomplished, with specific injector sizes and year/model on chips/ecms, so again, I can not tell the father I know it can be done.

This lack of information therefore limits the choice to LO5, but, again, without specific injector sizes and year/model on chips/ecms, I cannot say to the father that I'm sure it will work, so it looks like the LO5 is about to be ruled out, too.

It's been frustrating as hell to me to get so little solid information, instead having to spend so much time debating chip tuning, putting headers on it whether Goodwrench engines suck, etc., when I clearly laid out the parameters of this in the first post.

I thought this might be a great opportunity to get some good, usable information for what has to be the most asked question on this forum. Instead, it's been a week-and-a-half of pure frustration (not directing that solely at you Thomas).

Again, this will be a drop in.

It will be a Goodwrench crate engine

Stock intake will be retained (unless it is an L31)

Stock throttle body will be retained

Stock exhaust manifolds will be retained

Stock exhaust will be retained

Stock ignition will be retained

EGR, and all other smog equipment will be retained, an will remain functional

There will be no tuning.

If a 350 is to go in, instead of another LO3:

It must use a factory ECM or chip with no tuning and run virtually perfectly

In the case of an L31, it will use the GMPP Vortec TBI intake, and EGR must be plumbed.

It's either that, or nothing.

What I need is help accomplishing the above, within the very clear parameters that have been laid out here.

To anyone considering posting, please, if you disagree with any of the above parameters, that is fine, but they are not going to change, so it is fruitless to debate them. Right, wrong ... it don't matter. They are what they are, and either a 350 goes in meeting those parameters, or it's another LO3, and he's going to order an engine tomorrow, so I have less than 24 hours to deliver to him an extremely specific plan on how to swap to a 350 within the above parameters, or no 350 goes in.

morgsie

iTrader: (1)

Not to be rude but I think you`re asking for a silk purse out of a sow`s ear here. If they want to do upgrades later on, why not put a used L05 in and get a crate motor down the road? Then all you need is a truck or caprice chip and 61# injectors. For that matter, why not just get a used L03 and call it a day? Used does not necessarily mean unreliable... The above are vaild, reasonable and econominal paths to go. If the father doesn`t want to hear it, then perhaps it`s best to walk and let him do it his way. Wrong or otherwise...

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Ummm ... geee, thanks for that great advice.

Rather than go into all the theory about not putting any more money into an LO3, etc., I'll just stick with something more simple.

The kid owns the car.

The dad is paying the bills.

As far as I'm concerned, they have the right to set the parameters. You don't agree with their parameters? Great. You do what you want with your car. See, you own it, so you get to set the parameters.

That's how it works in America (or at least that's the way it works till the Tea Baggers take over, but that's another conversation.

I'm involved in this, because I think it's a very interesting idea, and one that a lot of people find themselves in.

More enthusiasts than not are on a budget. You plan and save for the mods you want to do, but often, something comes out of nowhere, like this engine blowing, and you find yourself in a position where you're not ready to do what you'd like to do, but any money spent doing less than what you want to do is wasted. In this case, any money put into the LO3 short block or heads is wasted.

The kid has essentially put himself in the position he's in. A year ago, when he and I first began talking, he asked my advice on what to do with his car. I told him before he did anything else, he should come on here and read up on tuning, get Embedded Lockers, and start messing around with it. I used Dewey316 as an example of what you can get with tuning from a stock car. I even emailed him links. He looked 'em over, agreed it was the right thing to do, and went out and bought wheels and tires, instead, when his old tires were fine.

If he'd listened to me, we'd be dropping in an L31. Since he didn't the choices are limited. What are you gonna do, I remember what it was like to be 19 and ruled by my raging hormones.

Regardless, I've made it absolutely clear multiple times that a used engine is not an option here, so it is just BS on your part to come in here again insisting on a used engine. You're just doing it to start crap. More importantly, from what you posted about your project when you first came into this thread, it's clear that you have no idea how to plan and execute a project. Reading through your other posts just makes that more clear. Are you seriously going to sit here with your car spread out all over your garage/yard/basement/bathroom, with your having no idea how you're going to get out of the hole you've dug for yourself and lecture me?

Seriously?

It's clear you're here to stir things up, not help, and it's also clear you don't have the knowledge necessary to help, even if you were here to help. Post whatever you like, I won't be responding in the future.

Thanks for your "help".

1gary

Sean.I think you have inserted yourself in a very difficult position in this situation.A family matter to which you are not apart of the family.So it doesn't matter what you know about cars.I suggest you step out of it and let the father and son along with the shop doing the work,work it out.

My two cents worth.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I understand what you're saying, but there's been no drama at all in my dealings with the kid, or his father.

From the beginning, I've accepted the father's outline of what he was willing to do, and what he wasn't. I figure the guy writing the checks gets to call the shots. We had a great conversation where I outlined what I thought the best options were, he told me of his past experiences, and then told me what he was willing to do.

There's no tension between the kid and his father, either. He's grateful for the help he's getting, and glad his father is willing to even consider letting him upgrade to a 350.

And that's the point. I'm not going to go back to them with a plan for upgrading to a 350 unless I'm as close to sure as possible that it will work. The last thing I want to do is get a 350 in that car that runs like crap and causes tension between a nice kid who loves his dad and a nice dad who loves his kid.

I just hate it that I bragged about the knowledge base on this forum and told him I'd be able to quickly develop specific plans and pricing, which I could assure him would work, and instead I've spent the bulk of the last week and a half defending the basic premise from a guy whose car isn't even running because he took it apart and can't figure out how to put it back together, and people who jump in without bothering to read the OP.

1gary

Sean,
Consider if it where you owning the repair shop and doing the work.(have been in that role before)Anything "you decide"I am left to work out.If it was my shop,I would tell the father that I am on longer interested in that job.

Then as you said and not to be rude,your coming here to get a path for a swap that your not sure of yourself,to tell the son for him to tell the father,to tell the repair shop..........Sean-I am just trying to follow that logically.I know this site's knowledge base and history even through I am the newbie here.But as in all sites the range for that can be all over the map.

Just be a buddy to the son,father,shop and bow out.That way no harm-no foul.

My 5 cents now because I spent 2 cents on this already.LOL.

87_305

It's really quite simple and you are making it complicated. Just tell them to get the L05 engine and that they will need the 350 injectors, knock sensor, esc, and ecm. Its not that damn hard to figure out. No one has been trying to start crap. You have to realize that this is a public forum and when you ask for peoples opinion that you shouldn't be bothered by it when they give it.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Gary, the thing you're missing here is that I am interested in the swap, I am friends with this kid and want to help him, I like the father and want to help him, and while I appreciate your advice, I'm not going to bow out. And frankly, this is the kind of wasted time/distraction I'm talking about. You've already advised me to walk away. I politely said I wasn't going to, and respectfully outlined my reasons why I wasn't. Now you're back again insisting I walk away.

I've very clearly outlined what I'm trying to accomplish. If you have some suggestions on how I might accomplish that, I'd sure be glad to have them. If you don't have any suggestions that might help us accomplish a 350 swap, then please give me the respect of accepting that I am an adult with the ability to make decisions and accept my choice to politely reject your advice to walk away.

Both RBob and Fast355, two of the most knowledgable members on this board, have said this is doable. I just need more specific information. If you can offer some of that, I'd sure like to have it.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Wow, thanks.

So, when you did this swap, were the 350 injectors you used the 61#/hr, 65#/hr, or the 68#/hr?

And what year/model ecm was it you used?

87_305

I used the 61lb injectors and grabbed a prom from a 350 truck that had the 7747 ecm. Easiest way to go tbh. Just be sure to get the knock sensor and esc as well. It cost me around 25 bucks at the u wrench it to get the sensors and prom chip.

86firebird350

Why not just tell the kid to park the car and buy a beater to drive while he saves up enough money so he can do what he wants with no monetary restrictions. That's what I had to do and quite honestly sounds like the best idea. The amount of money they'll spend doing a basic rebuild or swapping in a stock, low 200 something horsepower 350 can easily buy good, reliable transportation for the mean time.