Originally Posted by 87_305

I used the 61lb injectors and grabbed a prom from a 350 truck that had the 7747 ecm. Easiest way to go tbh. Just be sure to get the knock sensor and esc as well. It cost me around 25 bucks at the u wrench it to get the sensors and prom chip.

Originally Posted by 86firebird350

Why not just tell the kid to park the car and buy a beater to drive while he saves up enough money so he can do what he wants with no monetary restrictions. That's what I had to do and quite honestly sounds like the best idea. The amount of money they'll spend doing a basic rebuild or swapping in a stock, low 200 something horsepower 350 can easily buy good, reliable transportation for the mean time.

Originally Posted by 87_305

Tell them to find out which ECM they have and find a matching number ECM from a 350 powered vehicle to get the PROM chip from. I haven't had any problems with using a PROM chip from another vehicle yet as long as the ECM is the same.
Edit: BTW the shift light doesn't work in the car I used the truck PROM in.

Originally Posted by thomas1976

Shift light, speed limiter

Thirdgens have no shift light. TBI chip speed limit, maybe a cop car chip and 100% sure all chips from tbichips.com have it set at around 250mph.

Originally Posted by seanof30306

So, what then is that light in my dash that says "shift" that lights up at around 4,800 rpm, and goes dark after I shift?

Originally Posted by thomas1976

Thirdgens have no shift light.

Originally Posted by thomas1976

Just learned something new, I did not know T5 thirdgens had a shift light.

Originally Posted by seanof30306

OK, this is gonna be kinda long, but there are a lot of factors in this decision.

Kid lives in the apartments across the street from me. He's a broke student with a sweet '90 RS LO3 auto. It's stock with the exception of the shift kit he had put in when he had the transmission rebuilt last year. He's seen my Firebird and started shooting the breeze with me about 3rd gens awhile back. He wants to hop his car up, but he has to finish school and retire some student loan debt first; it'll be years before he can do anything but drive it, it's his daily driver.

The other day, it quit running. The kid has only basic mechanical skills and no tools, so I hooked him up with my guy. He has a 4 bay shop on his land and works on cars on the side, so he costs a lot less than regular shops. He's really good, honest, and has experience with 3rd gens, although he doesn't burn chips.

We found out it dropped a valve, and broke a piston. The cylinder is scored beyond rebore, so the engine is unrebuildable.

The kid's parents are willing to help him, but the kid's father is really set on a Goodwrench crate engine. He had a really bad experience in the past with a rebuild, and a great experience with a Goodwrench crate engine, so he loves them.

I'm not adverse to that at all. One of my favorite series of articles ever was PHR's Goodwrench Quest, where they took a basic Goodwrench 350 crate engine and ran a bunch of head/cam/intake/carb combinations on it, eventually making over 400 hp and 400 ft lbs with a set of Vortec heads. I think a Goodwrench 350 would make a great platform for him.

My guy doesn't think it's a bad idea, either. Since the kid can't do his own work, the labor on a rebuild would add up quick, even at my guys's rates. He doesn't think he could rebuild one a whole lot cheaper than a crate engine.

The kid would really like to use this as an opportunity to swap to a 350 if possible (something I heartily agree with). His dad is fine with it, as long as we can do it withing "a couple of hundred bucks" of what we could do a direct replacement for.

Oh, and the car is tagged in California (LA), so it has to remain completely smog legal.

I did a little checking at Scoggins Dickey. The Goodwrench LO3 replacement is 2191.18 (PN 12518296)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12518296

Pace Chevrolet has it for 1763.02

http://paceperformance.com/i-6484909...bi-engine.html

Now clearly, there are going to be shipping and core charges, but they'll be pretty much the same, no matter what engine he chooses, so they're a wash.

The good thing about the LO3 replacement is it's a direct replacement.

The bad thing about the L03 replacement is it's an LO3.

Now, the base model Goodwrench 350 is actually quite a bit cheaper than the LO3. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1499.99 (PN 10067353)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/10067353

Pace is actually more expensive on this one at 1819.95

http://paceperformance.com/i-6237688...no-intake.html

The problem with the basic Goodwrench crate engine, though, is that it's not exactly a direct fit.

It's a 2-piece rear main seal block, so he'd need a new flex plate. The heads aren't centerbolt, it's a non-roller, etc. The heads are crap, too.

Another option would be an L05. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1789.95 (PN 12568758), cheaper than an LO3!

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12568758

Pace has it for 1849.95.

http://paceperformance.com/i-6485019...-7200-gvw.html

I think that is actually a better choice than the base Goodwrench 350. It's a 1-piece rear main seal, the intake fits, it's a roller cam engine, and while the heads are crap, so are the ones on the base Goodwrench 350. A head swap would definitely be in his future with either choice when he started hopping it up. For now, all he'd need would be a set of 350 injectors, a Caprice cop car ecm, and the correct knock sensor and ESC module, and this would run perfectly, wouldn't it?

There's one more choice I really prefer, though. An L31. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1979.95 (PN 12530282)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12530282

Pace has it for 1999.95

http://paceperformance.com/i-6484921...-8600-gvw.html

I love the L31. High nickel block, 4-bolt mains, hypereutectic pistons, and best of all, Vortec heads!

My advice to him would be to get the L31 crate, pull the heads, have them machined for 500+ lift cams, install screw-in studs, then reassemble them with the stock springs. That way, when he goes to hop it up in the future, he won't have to pull the heads.

There are a few issues, though.

Issue #1: Intake
The GMPP Vortec TBI intake costs around 400 bucks. Did any of the Vortec trucks use a TBI throttle body like ours, or is that his only choice? Remember, it has to have EGR.

Issue #2: EGR
Vortecs don't have an EGR passage. I'm pretty sure the Vortec trucks get their EGR from the exhaust manifold. Could we tap into the existing exhaust manifold, or would a truck exhaust manifold swap over?

Issue #3: Tune
While the Cop Car ECM should run perfectly with an L05 crate engine, since the L31 flows more air, would that ECM work well with it in stock tune?

Are there any other issues I'm not considering?

Originally Posted by Fast355

That engine has the L03 peanut roller cam in it and was only 170 or 180 HP in the B/D cars depending on the year. It has no more power than the L03.

I ran the 20270 TBI truck engine on a stock 93 Caprice 350 chip for some time and it ran very well. I would use a 7747 running ARHT(fullsize van ECM/Chip), I highly doubt california smog testers are going to acess or read the prom ID, so you should be good. I would use the 305 knock module and 350 knock sensor along with 61# 350 injectors (orange/black). I prefer the 305 knock module because it desensitizes the system slightly for things such as headers, roller rockers, more aggressive cams, etc.

Originally Posted by seanof30306

OK, this is gonna be kinda long, but there are a lot of factors in this decision.

Kid lives in the apartments across the street from me. He's a broke student with a sweet '90 RS LO3 auto. It's stock with the exception of the shift kit he had put in when he had the transmission rebuilt last year. He's seen my Firebird and started shooting the breeze with me about 3rd gens awhile back. He wants to hop his car up, but he has to finish school and retire some student loan debt first; it'll be years before he can do anything but drive it, it's his daily driver.

The other day, it quit running. The kid has only basic mechanical skills and no tools, so I hooked him up with my guy. He has a 4 bay shop on his land and works on cars on the side, so he costs a lot less than regular shops. He's really good, honest, and has experience with 3rd gens, although he doesn't burn chips.

We found out it dropped a valve, and broke a piston. The cylinder is scored beyond rebore, so the engine is unrebuildable.

The kid's parents are willing to help him, but the kid's father is really set on a Goodwrench crate engine. He had a really bad experience in the past with a rebuild, and a great experience with a Goodwrench crate engine, so he loves them.

I'm not adverse to that at all. One of my favorite series of articles ever was PHR's Goodwrench Quest, where they took a basic Goodwrench 350 crate engine and ran a bunch of head/cam/intake/carb combinations on it, eventually making over 400 hp and 400 ft lbs with a set of Vortec heads. I think a Goodwrench 350 would make a great platform for him.

My guy doesn't think it's a bad idea, either. Since the kid can't do his own work, the labor on a rebuild would add up quick, even at my guys's rates. He doesn't think he could rebuild one a whole lot cheaper than a crate engine.

The kid would really like to use this as an opportunity to swap to a 350 if possible (something I heartily agree with). His dad is fine with it, as long as we can do it withing "a couple of hundred bucks" of what we could do a direct replacement for.

Oh, and the car is tagged in California (LA), so it has to remain completely smog legal.

I did a little checking at Scoggins Dickey. The Goodwrench LO3 replacement is 2191.18 (PN 12518296)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12518296

Pace Chevrolet has it for 1763.02

http://paceperformance.com/i-6484909...bi-engine.html

Now clearly, there are going to be shipping and core charges, but they'll be pretty much the same, no matter what engine he chooses, so they're a wash.

The good thing about the LO3 replacement is it's a direct replacement.

The bad thing about the L03 replacement is it's an LO3.

Now, the base model Goodwrench 350 is actually quite a bit cheaper than the LO3. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1499.99 (PN 10067353)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/10067353

Pace is actually more expensive on this one at 1819.95

http://paceperformance.com/i-6237688...no-intake.html

The problem with the basic Goodwrench crate engine, though, is that it's not exactly a direct fit.

It's a 2-piece rear main seal block, so he'd need a new flex plate. The heads aren't centerbolt, it's a non-roller, etc. The heads are crap, too.

Another option would be an L05. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1789.95 (PN 12568758), cheaper than an LO3!

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12568758

Pace has it for 1849.95.

http://paceperformance.com/i-6485019...-7200-gvw.html

I think that is actually a better choice than the base Goodwrench 350. It's a 1-piece rear main seal, the intake fits, it's a roller cam engine, and while the heads are crap, so are the ones on the base Goodwrench 350. A head swap would definitely be in his future with either choice when he started hopping it up. For now, all he'd need would be a set of 350 injectors, a Caprice cop car ecm, and the correct knock sensor and ESC module, and this would run perfectly, wouldn't it?

There's one more choice I really prefer, though. An L31. Scoggin Dickey has it for 1979.95 (PN 12530282)

http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/12530282

Pace has it for 1999.95

http://paceperformance.com/i-6484921...-8600-gvw.html

I love the L31. High nickel block, 4-bolt mains, hypereutectic pistons, and best of all, Vortec heads!

My advice to him would be to get the L31 crate, pull the heads, have them machined for 500+ lift cams, install screw-in studs, then reassemble them with the stock springs. That way, when he goes to hop it up in the future, he won't have to pull the heads.

There are a few issues, though.

Issue #1: Intake
The GMPP Vortec TBI intake costs around 400 bucks. Did any of the Vortec trucks use a TBI throttle body like ours, or is that his only choice? Remember, it has to have EGR.

Issue #2: EGR
Vortecs don't have an EGR passage. I'm pretty sure the Vortec trucks get their EGR from the exhaust manifold. Could we tap into the existing exhaust manifold, or would a truck exhaust manifold swap over?

Issue #3: Tune
While the Cop Car ECM should run perfectly with an L05 crate engine, since the L31 flows more air, would that ECM work well with it in stock tune?

Are there any other issues I'm not considering?

Originally Posted by thomas1976

So what engine did you end up talking your friend's dad in to buying for his son? And what did your friend's dad end up buying?

Originally Posted by seanof30306

They went with the L03. The car runs like a top.