69442DREAMCAR

I was taught enough on realoldspower to finish my 69 442, then found this site when I started my 89 RS. Very informative site if you use search, but if you post 2 or 3 replies seem to be the norm. I really need help, history-89 RS bought 7 or 8 years ago. 305 would crank bad ran real bad and smoked, wouldn't run well enough to run around block. My son gave me a 350 with a Comp 260h cam and a Weiand Intake with 670 street avenger carb. I put the motor in the camaro with the Tbi. Ran fair, then got on this site changed the chip out with a Caprice cop car bought a knock sensor from Advance auto parts even though their book showed the same one for the 305 did all the things that the sticky tells you to do. Haven't found anyone in 150 mile radius to do a chip, added Hooker shorty headers no cat 3" pipe to flowmaster dual outlet muffler, Harwood bolt on hood, interior from 2000 camaro. So I am serious about this car, know I left out some things. It doesn't run that bad, but I know its not what it could be. Should I change it back to the Weiand intake and Holley street avenger carb, I have the MSD dist. for the non computer motor? Or would you try the Holley Pro-injection and Holley 670 TBI I ordered before I found out on here I shouldn't have put this motor in the car with this cam? Please any suggestions? I will try to get my son when he comes home to post pictures of the car, so everyone will see how good it looks but just can't quite get it right.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I believe that cam is 212/212 @ .05 110LSA. I dont think it is an issue?

I run the Holley projection with a GM 7.4L TBI. Similar to Holley 670 TBI. You will need a higher pressure(TPI?)fuel pump as Holley uses smaller injs at higher pressure.

I use your ECU but it is EBL'd. Check into Flash EBL. You will need to determine if you want to go DIYProm or tbichips.com or another vendor. there are a few. If you have a party burn chips it is recommened you datalog/email as a minimum to help tuner get it right.

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

Give Brian a call at tbichips.com 336-471-2827. He's great.

RFmaster

If Ronny's numbers are correct this cam will give stock TBI ECM problems at idle due to excessive overlap (small LSA angle). Getting this cam to work to its full potential will require some tuning and tweaking of VE tables as well as other parameters (AE, PE). You can do this tuning provided you are willing to invest time and little bit of money. Firstly - mail order chips is a crapshoot. The only way to dial-in a hot combo like your is to EBL your ECM and perform extensive VE drives. EBL IMHO offers the best combination of performance/ price / adaptability /ease of tunning over anything else that I have seen so far. Please - it is only my opinion based on my own experience....

//RF

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

I have been working with Brian (tbichips.com) for 2 1/2 years now. Basically, I datalog using Winaldl and email him the information. He then modifies the bin and emails it back to me and I use Moates' flash and burn setup to burn the chip. Moates modified my computer to accept his style of chip. Yes, it is pretty costly to go that route with modifying the computer, buying the cables and flash and burn, etc. That to me is not a mail order chip, but i do understand that a "mail order" chip is less specific.

I have talked to many who have had the mail order type chips. The ones that I find who are unhappy tend to be the ones who don't give accurate information to the one who is developing the chip. Most mail order chips when they are custom ordered based on your EXACT specs work out really really well...

The best route is to do the datalogging yourself and either learn to modify it or have someone like Brian modify the data, etc.

Just my opinion too, lol.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Yes, datalogging and sending that info to tuner is imperative. I would ask tuner how many reburns he will tolerate. Also the WOT state of tune cannot be determined with logging BLM BUT it might turn out close. Mine ended up 12.0/1 on dyno commanded to 12.30. so I was lucky. WOT tuning requires a WB datalog.

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

You're right. Brian is a great guy and I am not too sure how many re-tunes he would allow with the purchase of that style of chip.

He has always been extremely fair and reasonable with me.

69442DREAMCAR

Thanks a ton for your time. Is there anyone close enough to Shreveport La. to drive the car to. Probably be only car I do this with, so might not be cost efficent to buy what I need to get the chip right. I have the 69 442, 68 Mustang fastback not finished and a 67 El-Camino I am building, that wouldn't be economical to drive is where the Camaro came in. I will get the cam card and post it, if I am reading correctly the cam will cause more trouble when idling? It idles high but seems ok. It just is sluggish on take off. Maybe I should go ahead and install the Holley TBI and Holley intake before tuning the computer?

dctrumpet

iTrader: (10)

MoatesWare LLC
16848 Jefferson Hwy
Baton Rouge, LA 70817

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

The way to go on cam is to idle open loop. that takes the nb02 sensor out of loop(pun?). i believe the nb02 sees 02 from "reversion" or leakage of unburned 02 into ext stream. it sees that and assumes lean and dumps fuel. a "computer cam" has a larger LSA which helps the idle issue.

RFmaster

Lets take a look at that cam specs first. Slow acceleration might be correctable with ECM tuning and verifying fuel pressure under load. Camshaft alters volumetric efficiency of the engine - stock TBI camshafts were tiny compared to performance oriented camshafts! Swapping in bigger TB and Holley intake (which one?) will alter your engine behavior even further.
Do you have headers, high flow exhaust system, what is your CR????

All of these parameters are need by chip tuner to cut a base line chip. However, these changes can be accommodated by the ECM - provided that you know how to data log during characterization test drives. There is a sticky - read it, lots of good info.
During my conversion from carb to EFI I went through a learning curve which started with: mail order chips (too slow and I am impatient for mail delivery), Moates adapter with a flash chip, romulator and finally EBL'ed ECM. OK, enough said - there are a lot of guys that can help here... No worries.

//RF

69442DREAMCAR

Thanks for showing interest RFmaster, a couple of the questions you asked are answered in the original post "headers exhaust etc." but the compression is about 8.5. The motor was a crate motor from Mills Motors that has been in business locally for 40 years. He also degreed the cam in for my son. Here is everything I could find out about the cam, rpm range 1200-5200. Valve timing 0.006, lobe center angle 110, intake centerline 106, Duration 260, Duration@ .050 lift 212, the following is the same for both int. and exh. vavle lift 0.44, love lift 0.293, valve timing intake open 24 btdc close 56 abdc- exhaust open 64 bbdc close 16 atdc. I also noticed today that I never drilled the Hooker short headers and installed the oxygen sensor, will correct that tomorrow.

69442DREAMCAR

Forgot this car has the original rear end gears that came with the 305 and 700r. I will get someone to turn the rear tomorrow while I count the driveshaft turns and determine what the ratio is. I found a 5 speed car at Pipes Upullit Bossier ( they have 4 local ) and it has disc brakes, I will also check to see what gear ration it is and post both. By the way the complete rear is 65 bucks. Do I need to get the master cylinder and brake booster when I pull the rearend?

69442DREAMCAR

RFmaster asked alot of questions and I answered them, but no reply post. After a little interested was shown it died out to. Thanks, anyway.

RFmaster

Hey 69442

I did not forget your delima, but somehow this thread got pushed down!!

Installed cam is not optimum for TBI ECM. This cam sports LSA 110 which pushes HP peak higher in RPM range (say around 4500 RPM) while loosing some low speed torque. Also, duration at 050 is 212 degrees - it has enough duration to bleed cylinder pressure at lower RPM. I will venture to guess that your engine idles around 800 RPM with about 12 to 14 in-Hg vacuum.
This cam be handled through careful tuning. VE tables and AE and PE will have to be modified among other things.

Stock rear end probably has very tall gears (low ratio) which would be ideal for 700R4 and gas mileage. 5 Speed car had lower gear ratio. I do not know about master cylinder - I would take it as well just in case.

//RF

69442DREAMCAR

Will get rear end friday, and if I can't get some help with the chip, can always go carb.
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One last thing, how hard is it to change out cam while motor is in a 89 camaro? And suggestions for a cam that would run good, but work with cop car chip.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

comp cams xe 249 H computer cam 206-212 @ .05 112 LSA

crane 4122 204/214 @ .05 114 LSA

not sure if an upgraded cam will work with cop car chip. Or better said work well. May need a custom chip burned.

RFmaster

69442

Ronny pointed toward a pair of excellent cam 'candidates' that would work with TBI (ECM). Swapping cam while engine is installed is a bit of a PITA, but it is doable. The biggest headache in this exercise is a cam chain cover seal, at the bottom, where oil pan and cam cover meet in the corners - you'll have to trim wings of the gasket and use black RTV to prevent oil leaks. Other than that it is the usual remove, label, box type of job.

If you do not want to swap cam I would strongly recomend to update your ECM with EBL. The EBL allows you to tune your existing cam with a laptop - no wrenching required. There are couple of long running threads on this subject.

I am sorry, but I have given up on Carb in the past century.

//RF

69442DREAMCAR

I know I should be able to find ebl, but could you explain or tell me where to find what the ebl upgrade is?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

dynamicefi.com