reborn92rs

Its been a long time comming, but due to a misplaced foot on my ecm I took the dive into tuning finally.

I hooked everything up and I figured out how to load a bin into the autoprom with tunerproRT, and the EBL + WUD worked wonderfully. Now I have a ton of questions that hopefully someone can help me with.

Here is what I know about the car and its engine, I have to fess up that its very little when it comes to the motor, wasnt in the loop when it got put in.
92 camaro RS.
700r4 with corvette servo and shift kit
2800 stall (90% sure on that)
350 block bored to 355. ported 882 heads, unknown model comp cam, I *think* stock intake (anyway to check?), stock tbi unit, 55#/hr injectors (GM5235279), stock fuel pump, headman headers and new exhaust, all emmisions stuff still required.

I know that I will be really short on fuel, I was going to purchase a new tank (i have that leak issue) and walbro 255 before the EBL used the moneys allocated for that. That will happen maybe next month, but I need the car back on the road asap and I am ok with the fact that this tune will probably not be all that great.

If there is any other information needed let me know, here are all the questions I can think of after my first 30 minutes of tuning.

Tuning questions:
BPWC. The EBL code doesnt run with this number? I found an INJ -MPG Injector Flow Constant, and a DGD - Injector Flow Scalar, is one of these the injector size value? If it is, shouldnt there be a corresponding cylinder size constant somewheres?

Ve Learning: I decided to let the thing try learning and see what happened. I being paranoid am just experimenting with the car in park and the RPM's as reported on the WUD staying under 2000. It changed a bunch of numbers and I have uploaded to the autoprom and subsequent VE learns do not change any values. Using the learned bin, holding for example 1200 rpm, watching the BLM's I see them osscilate between 128 and 136, and the O2 reading doing the same thing, between 250 and 800 odd. It does this no matter what rpm (inc idle) I hold the engine at. This means that not enough fuel is getting into the engine and it slows, so the ecm gives it way too much and it runs rich right? What do I do to work on that?

WUD:
How do I enable logging? Probably something simple that Im missing...
How come WUD says idle is at 750, and tach reports about 1050?

TunerPro RT
The ALDL connection doesnt seem to want to work, I have the cable going to the autoprom, is there some special way to get that to work?

Thats all I can think of right now, I'm going to keep playing with these things seeing what things do what (im in the car right now). Any help is appreciated greatly!

PS: Rbob, I'm the one that just drove up to your place last Sunday, was great meeting you.

reborn92rs

Ok, found the displacement value finally. And the DGD is the correct injector value right? Whats the other one used for then?

Setting these values and seeing what a VE learn does now.

reborn92rs

Ok, several drives later I finally have it in low rpm's such that its not constantly maxing out cells at a change of +12 for VE. Here is what my low VE table is looking like:

http://www15.brinkster.com/bfspace/camaro/ebl7.JPG

Does that seem normal? I have not done any smoothing on it by hand yet, thats the next step. But does it look like I am on the right track with that?

91chevz71

Your BPC changes will be in the BPC vs VAC tables.
change all to to your current BPC value if your're not using a VAFPR

the injector flow numbers are for the MPG function in the what'sup, or a digital dash if you're using one.

The BPC vs. VAC table is where you make your money- I've learned from experience to get this one on the money, then tune.
The EBL calibration file tells you how to arrive at your BPC value.
If this is screwed up, VE will be off big time

stock 350 L05 BPC=135 (61 lb/hr inj @ about 11 psi)
my BPC = 89 (90 lb/hr inj @ 14.5 psi)

reborn92rs

91chevz71,
Thank you for the reply, just ran the numbers and my BPC value is 153. Changing it now and going to see what that does to the VE tables.

91chevz71

your BPC should be around 120 or so. check the numbers. confirm actual psi

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the 55#/hr injectors at stock fuel pressure on a 355 the BPC of 153 is correct. Changing it from the 135 to 153 will cause the engine to run richer, and the VE tables to be reduced. The VE table in your other post looks decent. Still needs some work but is coming together.

You mentioned a Walbro 255 l/hr pump. This may be too much pump. At the lower fuel pressures TBI runs, a high pressure pump will deliver a lot of fuel, so much that it can't always be regulated back down. What is required for fuel delivery is a whole 'nother topic.

The DGD & MPG Injector Flow rates are for the trip computors. The DGD term is for cross-fire digital dashes, the MPG term is for the WUD. Just need to set the MPG one to 55#/hr so that the WUD reports.

Some of the other questions, data logging, top menu: File -> Datalog. . . The tach at 1050 and WUD at 750, tach is off. It is common for our tach's to read high.

The ALDL link is still active in the EBL. If the option word is set for DGD data stream will need to short or 10K pins A&B to switch to the diagnostic data stream (or flip the option word bit with the next BIN changes).

Using the learned bin, holding for example 1200 rpm, watching the BLM's I see them osscilate between 128 and 136, and the O2 reading doing the same thing, between 250 and 800 odd. It does this no matter what rpm (inc idle) I hold the engine at. This means that not enough fuel is getting into the engine and it slows, so the ecm gives it way too much and it runs rich right? What do I do to work on that?

The BLM values should settle down. If holding an RPM they should go to a value and not change much at all. If the VE table is way off the BLM may overshoot then return, but eventually settle down.

As for the O2 value, it should oscillate. The ECM forces the O2 to flip high & low, averages the signal, and moves the INTegrator if required. If the INT moves away from the 128 setting, the BLM will then move in response. In the diy_prom Tuning Guide Book sticky, under ECM Tuning, '8063/'7747/'8746 section, is a paper on 747 Fueling. It explains the closed loop fueling and how it basically works.

RBob.

91chevz71

I knew Rbob would swoop in from somewhere.
Didn't mean to misdirect you!!!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A lower BPC is desirable. The higher the value the lower the RPM the injectors will go static. However, the BPC is still tied to the actual injector flow rate.

With a BPC of 153 the injectors will go static around 3600 RPM at WOT.

With a BPC of 84 the injectors will go static around 6000 RPM at WOT.

RBob.

reborn92rs

Rbob, 91chevz71, thanks for the replies!

Here is the latest picture of the low VE table with the correct BPC value set, it does look much smoother now.
http://www15.brinkster.com/bfspace/c...bl_BPC_153.JPG
[edit, theres a new low rpm and a high rpm picture underneath that one, smoothed out some.]

Im noticing a hill/valley pattern showing up allong 35Kpa, 50Kpa, 65Kpa, and again at 90Kpa accross the rpm band. I spent the last drive specifically aiming at those Kpa values thinking I just wasnt logging much there, but I know I hit a lot around the 50 and 65 mark and it really wanted to stay lower than the surrounding values. Should I manually smooth that out some or leave it like that?

Also with the higher rpms, I set the PE TPS enable table to 80% accross the board, is that too high for letting that kick in? Would it be safe to set that to 100% and tune?

I watched some more, for me 3k on the tach is about 1800 on the WUD. I replaced the gauge cluster a while back but made sure this one had the same number on it as the old one, maybe I stuck something wrong in there. I am still getting used to 4k on my tach, which is pretty loud in the exhaust, being only a little over 2k ish in reality.

I fairly well understand fuel pressure and the injectors roles (and calculating values) in the fueling system, but I have yet to really understand the pumps'. Is there some material I can read that deals specifically with figuring out what flow and pressure I would need from a pump?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The peaks and valleys are strange to say the least. However, it looks like over VE Learns they are flattening out. Maybe some additional VE Learns will smooth it out. If not, then I'd lok at the AE, may be too much or too little. At times of AE, such as tip in 1600 RPM, look at what the INT does.

If it heads down then too much AE, if it skyrockets then not enough AE.

For the PE enable don't set it too high. It isn't good to be in closed loop under heavy load.

The tach issue has a big thread on the electronics board. Even has info on fixing them. Has to do with some film resistors on the tach board.

RBob.

91chevz71

I bet you could use a walbro 190 or a TPI fuel pump from a TPI car, obviously. I'm a truck guy so I can't tell you for sure, but that could be a viable solution. Your VE table looks like its coming together.
I suggest getting an AFPR and gauge to see where your FP is at. Install new pump, gauge adapter setup, give it about 16-17 psi maybe, recalc BPC (getting it lower) and try it out. I have received advice NOT to install a 255 with the stock regulator/housing (Iwanted to do that a while back). The return line can't channel fuel back to the tank fast enough, I guess. Like RBob said
keep us posted!!!

reborn92rs

Thanks again for the replies! Lets start with the good news:

Here is the latest graph of the VE tables, low RPM suddenly got REALLY nice looking. http://www15.brinkster.com/bfspace/c..._7_low_rpm.JPG
Dont know what I did to effect it, 4 more learns, and I lowered the PE back down to stock settings, also havent touched AE at all. High RPM cleaned up some too but I think theres more work to be done. Im taking it slow up there, 100-200 rpm increases an upload, apparently since I've owned the car ive never gone past 4k rpm since thats near redline on my tach right now, is new territory for me.

I did log some looking at the INT when AE was enabled, and it looks like the INT starts at 128 and moved down to 122 over the 1.5k rpm (1800-3300) that it was on for. Is that a good thing? What should I be aiming for to happen? Also I am trying to stay under the PE threshold, is that a good thing or do I want that to kick in as well?

Oh, just curious, what are the ratings for the TBI and TPI pumps?

Now the really really bad news:
I have to get the car registered in my name by the 12th. It was under my dad to help me out a little while I did the whole first job outta college, first house deal. But the parents are getting divorced so the car has been given to me. Cool and all until I saw that I need a recent emmisions test done on the thing. Now with the old and broke ECM, the car past with flying colors, was very far under all the maximums. What do I do with this new one? Can I make this thing run extra lean for the purpose of the sniff? Maybe upload a temporary bin that shoots for 15+:1 ratio? I have to get this done soon, so that the car is dealt with out of court and doesnt risk being sold to make up for things.

I really need anyones help, focus now is soley on beating emmisions, I found a few other threads on it so I will start reading on what people did.

Thanks again!

91chevz71

GOod stuff, reborn.

Your VE tuning method sounds like it's working out well, I used the same style when I started tuning my truck. Keep aiming for 128's across the board. On the AE stuff- if the INT is swinging rich, you have too much AE in. Use the AE multiplier table to decrease AE for the given RPM. I have reduced AE a TON and I still have too much in. If the car bogs when AE hits, too much. Lean popping though intake-too little. I asked Rbob about tuning AE and he said it's ideal to have the INT swing slightly(130-132) lean when AE hits, but obviously if it's popping it's too lean.
On the emissions thing- I just passed Colorado emissions with no special tricks to the fuel or timing or anything like that. I think having a solid VE table and reducing AE helped out. Before I had my wideband O2, my AE was out of control- AFR dipping to 11.0 when AE hit. now it's about 13, so I still need to take some out. I also had two functioning cats, no EGR equipment. DOn't run too lean or too rich. run right around 14.7/15.0. Replace the cat with a new 3-way, this will help out.

reborn92rs

Thanks for the help 91chevz71, I am still working on the AE tables. I have made it better, I have no bog at all, never did with the EBL from day 1. What I do see is the INT still going down to 118 depending on where I stab from, usually low rpm gets lower than higher. I also noticed that 4-5 stabs in a row seems to soak the intake in fuel, because when I return to cuising right after the car is insane rich for a little. BLM's down around 110, INT goes way up, and it corrects after about 5-10 seconds.

I really need a wideband, which do you use? Looking at an LC-1 right now.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There is an AE vs RPM multiplier table. You can use this to change the amount of AE at various RPM points/areas.

Not seeing a data log I can't say this is what is happening with the 4-5 stabs, however, driving the INT down will bring the BLM down with it. The BLM of 110 may be because of this, once the AE is gone the INT will then shoot back up to bring the AFR in line (and drag the BLM back up to 128).

Work on reducing the AE via the MAP & TPS PW tables. If the upper RPM then needs more AE and the lower RPM is OK, then switch to the AE vs RPM multiplier table. You can then add or remove AE in the RPM areas that need it.

RBob.

reborn92rs

Rbob,

Thank you for the info, I was playing with both tables since I could not really discern which was more important than the other. The AE discussions over in Prom board more confused me than anything.

Here is a snapshot from last nights run where I go from cuising, stabbing the throttle, to no throttle. You can see the INT dive to 118 in this one.
http://www15.brinkster.com/bfspace/c...to_118.EBL.TXT

Edit: Here is the 4-5 stab time, I think its partly my fault because the computer doesnt do anything when the TPS is 0, so it looks like it never had a chance to clean itself up after that. Plus I hit PE in the middle, I'm gonna set that back to 60% TPS instead of the 50 its at now.
Thanks for your time!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The TPS% AE is quicker then the MAP AE, I tend toward TPS AE for the majority of AE. Then let the MAP AE fill in behind it. And use as little MAP AE as possible. At low RPM it is easy to get a large delta MAP which can flood an engine with MAP AE.

I tried to look at your file but received an error accessing it:

HTTP1.1 STATUS 403 Remote Access to this object forbidden

Direct Access Forbidden
This file cannot be directly accessed from a remote site, but must be linked through the Brinkster Member's site.

RBob.

reborn92rs

Stupid free websites... see if this works:
http://www15.brinkster.com/bfspace/camaro/ebl.asp

Its a page I threw up to just look in a folder for certain pictures and now certain files, all updates I put up for help on will show on that page.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The majority of your AE if from delta MAP (dMAP). I would first reduce the AE - MAP PW table. Highlight the whole table and using the toolbox multiply it by .80 for a 20% reduction. See where that leads, if too lean then add 2-3% at a time. If still too rich reduce it an additional amount.

RBob.

reborn92rs

Well, round #1 at the emissions shop didnt get far, car failed visual inspection and I have an exhaust leak. I'm pulling up pictures of stock motors and trying to find out where the hoses went. I used to have the pcv valve going into the air cleaner... but I just noticed its going into the TBI i think (havent pulled air filter off to verify). They want that anoying cold start air heater hose back on as well. They think the leak is the header gasket so I will go replace that stuff tonight.

As far as tuning goes, the cars running better and better. I ended up with about 75% of what the Map Ae table started with. At the top is another link to a cutout from the latest AE testing. http://www15.brinkster.com/bfspace/camaro/ebl.asp
Its still going rich on me. For all lower TPS changes Ive reduced the value some, and the whole Map AE table is 75% of what it was.

Thanks again for everyones help!

reborn92rs

Emissions legal again! Scores are as follows:

Test (15mph Limit) actual (25mph limit) actual
HC (48) 18 (53) 22
CO (0.19) 0.07 (0.28) 0.07
NO (632) 543 (614) 565
A/F 14.6 14.6

I was glad to see the A/F almost perfect the entire run, I hid the laptop under the passenger seat and got a datalog of the inspection and the computers int was within +-1 of 128 the whole time. I have to say thank you for such a wonderful product Rbob, this EBL has made a gigantic difference in this car! I had my old emissions where it was running 13.4-13.6 for the same tests and it just confirms how much of an improvement I am feeling and seeing in the car.

Now that all thats out of my way I am going to do a little more messing around with AE then begin the PE work finally. I havent messed with spark at all and so far every data log has only picked up knock a few times when cranking and when shutting the car off. I was kinda wondering why there was not a Spark learn like there is a VE learn, it seems to be pretty straigt forward. Is there a reason why not?

Thanks for all the help everyone!